Should schools have to pay for transfers?

[auror]

Here are the serious barriers for student buyouts.

1. They can't be tied to the university. Legally. That's pay-for-play if the university coordinates it. That makes students employees and that is the last thing the NCAA and universities want.

2. Since these students are not legally employees, it's highly questionable if these clauses would be enforceable. Not to mention the incredible media backlash of the inevitable lawsuits from universities suing their students.

3. If it can't be tied to the university, what's the point? We just start suing each other's NIL organizations?! All you're doing is burning money. The player will still leave. And there's no incentive for them to stay.

But the most important thing is that these clauses strengthen the student's legal argument that they're employees...a position that the NCAA and universities will always oppose because it will have disastrous consequences to the economics of college athletics and would probably kill most programs.

So please...this is a pointless thread. You're more likely to win the Powerball jackpot than this happening.

Revenue sharing which is very likely to happen next month changes this and no longer makes it impossible to tie them to the university, which was my point. (The employee question is certainly going to be litigated going forward).

 

[Fishy]

One argument in favor of player transfers has been “if coaches can move from school to school without sitting out, why shouldn’t players?”

But most coaches have a buyout that needs to be to their original school. Should something like that exist for players? I’m sure it won’t happen, but it would help mitigate — if only just a little — the loss that mid-majors are now experiencing, where anyone good immediately leaves.

Here’s the rub - if you have a buyout for a player, you’re really into employer/employee territory and schools do not want that.

 

[Vowelguy]

Here’s the rub - if you have a buyout for a player, you’re really into employer/employee territory and schools do not want that.

Fair enough; I get that. But aren't we kinda headed that way? The Dartmouth players started down the union road before pulling back. Will someone else pick that up?

More broadly it seems like we're in an unstable situation. Players have the ability to get paid and move freely between teams in a way that pros don't even have. I wonder if the schools are gonna try to put some guardrails around that.

 

[auror]

Here’s the rub - if you have a buyout for a player, you’re really into employer/employee territory and schools do not want that.

I can't see how schools are going to avoid this with the "revenue sharing" payments. It's revenue sharing... but it's a fixed amount predicated on you performing scheduled employee activities.

Right.

 

[Fishy]

I can't see how schools are going to avoid this with the "revenue sharing" payments. It's revenue sharing... but it's a fixed amount predicated on you performing scheduled employee activities.

Right.

They may not be able to avoid it, but the concept is that the players are selling their media rights in exchange for revenue sharing, NIL, etc.

 

[Fishy]

Fair enough; I get that. But aren't we kinda headed that way? The Dartmouth players started down the union road before pulling back. Will someone else pick that up?

More broadly it seems like we're in an unstable situation. Players have the ability to get paid and move freely between teams in a way that pros don't even have. I wonder if the schools are gonna try to put some guardrails around that.

To me, in their efforts to get away from what they termed the Wild West, they are heading towards something even more Wild Westy.

 

[NHUConnfan]

Fair enough; I get that. But aren't we kinda headed that way? The Dartmouth players started down the union road before pulling back. Will someone else pick that up?

More broadly it seems like we're in an unstable situation. Players have the ability to get paid and move freely between teams in a way that pros don't even have. I wonder if the schools are gonna try to put some guardrails around that.

Turning student athletes into employees will kill almost every college sport.

They absolutely do not want this.

 

[alphasigko]

Why could they not be contracted as "Independent Contractors" and hence they are not "employees"? They woud then be given 1099s for their earnings from NIL, and their contracts could include a reimbursement clause if they left before the termination date within the contract. Is that too simple of an arrangment?

 

[NHUConnfan]

Why could they not be contracted as "Independent Contractors" and hence they are not "employees"? They woud then be given 1099s for their earnings from NIL, and their contracts could include a reimbursement clause if they left before the termination date within the contract. Is that too simple of an arrangment?

There is literally no way they could get away with classifying them as Independent Contractors lmao

 

[auror]

Why could they not be contracted as "Independent Contractors" and hence they are not "employees"? They woud then be given 1099s for their earnings from NIL, and their contracts could include a reimbursement clause if they left before the termination date within the contract. Is that too simple of an arrangment?

They are scheduled and told how, when, and where to work. There is an ongoing 1-4 year relationship. They don't buy their own stuff. They pass literally none of the tests to be an independent contractor. Which is why they will eventually be considered employees as soon as revenue sharing starts and any person files a lawsuit.

 

[NHUConnfan]

And I don't think people truly understand how devastating classifying athletes as employees are, especially as so many universities are in funding crunches with the impending enrollment cliff. There won't be enough college basketball teams to field March Madness.

 

[husky429]

The future is buyouts, performance bonuses, and performance minimums. No way are donors putting up with the huge busts the portal is leading to forever.

 

[auror]

And I don't think people truly understand how devastating classifying athletes as employees are, especially as so many universities are in funding crunches with the impending enrollment cliff. There won't be enough college basketball teams to field March Madness.

I don't think that's the case. College sports is a 20 billion dollar a year industry with a few thousand employees.

The non-revenue generating sports... well....

 

[NHUConnfan]

I don't think that's the case. College sports is a 20 billion dollar a year industry with a few thousand employees.

The non-revenue generating sports... well....

There won't be enough teams to field March Madness. Basketball is a non-revenue generating sport for 90+% of D1.

The industry would collapse.

 

[superjohn]

There won't be enough teams to field March Madness. Basketball is a non-revenue generating sport for 90+% of D1.

The industry would collapse.

College sports lose money when you just look at what they take in versus what they spend, it's been that way for a long time across the country. UConn basketball, Ohio State football and a ton of other schools still benefit greatly from their basketball and football programs. They aren't going anywhere.

Nobody has ever given a crap about field hockey and cross country.

 

[alphasigko]

They are scheduled and told how, when, and where to work. There is an ongoing 1-4 year relationship. They don't buy their own stuff. They pass literally none of the tests to be an independent contractor. Which is why they will eventually be considered employees as soon as revenue sharing starts and any person files a lawsuit.

I have been an Independent Cotractor for over 30 years, and I am always scheduled and told when and where to work by my clients. And yes, I buy my own stuff, and pay for lodging and meals when I am working away from my home base. The University could charge for uniforms, room and board and the "student" athlete could write those off as bona fide expenses. They could also be billed for Tuition whch would also be a write off expense and hence reduce the taxes they pay on their NIL Income.

These kids are making big bucks for playing a game. I see no reason why they should not pay for these things like adults do in real jobs. Welcome to the real world.

 

[alphasigko]

There is literally no way they could get away with classifying them as Independent Contractors lmao

LMAO to you too....Please explain why you believe that "There is literally no way they could get away with classifying them as Independent Contractors".

 

[auror]

I have been an Independent Cotractor for over 30 years, and I am always scheduled and told when and where to work by my clients. And yes, I buy my own stuff, and pay for lodging and meals when I am working away from my home base. The University could charge for uniforms, room and board and the "student" athlete could write those off as bona fide expenses. They could also be billed for Tuition whch would also be a write off expense and hence reduce the taxes they pay on their NIL Income.

These kids are making big bucks for playing a game. I see no reason why they should not pay for these things like adults do in real jobs. Welcome to the real world.

The IRS has begun cracking down on this due to the proliferation of incorrectly identified 1099 contractors. If you're told when and where to work, you should probably be a w2 employee, but it would depend on exactly what you mean and the nature of the business.

 

[Zonepress]

I have been an Independent Cotractor for over 30 years, and I am always scheduled and told when and where to work by my clients. And yes, I buy my own stuff, and pay for lodging and meals when I am working away from my home base. The University could charge for uniforms, room and board and the "student" athlete could write those off as bona fide expenses. They could also be billed for Tuition whch would also be a write off expense and hence reduce the taxes they pay on their NIL Income.

These kids are making big bucks for playing a game. I see no reason why they should not pay for these things like adults do in real jobs. Welcome to the real world.

Being an independent contractor, myself, I completely concur
In all this discussion, I can’t seem to understand all of the angst
The University doesn’t pay the Nil so they’re off the hook financially
Players are getting money that generally was not previously available
The game seems to continue to be popular
The coaches are making record income
University athletic departments continue to increase their staff and salaries
From where I sit the whole NIL controversy
Seems to be a media creation

 

[Zonepress]

LMAO to you too....Please explain why you believe that "There is literally no way they could get away with classifying them as Independent Contractors".

Bravo!!

 

[auror]

Being an independent contractor, myself, I completely concur
In all this discussion, I can’t seem to understand all of the angst
The University doesn’t pay the Nil so they’re off the hook financially
Players are getting money that generally was not previously available
The game seems to continue to be popular
The coaches are making record income
University athletic departments continue to increase their staff and salaries
From where I sit the whole NIL controversy
Seems to be a media creation

We're discussing a hypothetical in which the school WILL be paying directly via revenue sharing.

 

[auror]

There won't be enough teams to field March Madness. Basketball is a non-revenue generating sport for 90+% of D1.

The industry would collapse.

There's a lot of fuzzy accounting on both sides of the revenue/expense equation, so it's hard to tell how non-revenue generating most basketball teams are for the schools. Fundraising/donations, charging the price of the scholarship as an expense, marketing expense of the team for the university, student fees, etc.

But all schools get NCAA money for fielding a basketball team from March Madness in the form of tournament credits, through conferences. At least around 200k a year for everybody that's not an independent depending on conference size and split. Plus ticket receipts and gates, buy game guarantees, merch, potential concessions, conference media, etc.

Picking a random smaller public school with visible financials, it cost UNC Asheville somewhere between a million and a million and a half to run the team. And it seems they make at least a million between the categories I mentioned above.

https://www3.unca.edu/facultysenate/2022-23/Athletics%20presentation/Athletics%20Budget%20FY23.pdf

If they're employees, you can get rid of scholarship, housing, and their related expenses, pay them some salary that offsets a lot of the expenses you were already absorbing, so the net financial impact isn't even that much.

 

[Zonepress]

We're discussing a hypothetical in which the school WILL be paying directly via revenue sharing.

That may come to pass, but it still won’t affect NIL
Players will still be free to negotiate whatever they want

 

[alphasigko]

The "student" athlete can set up his/her own Subchapter S or LLC and receive their money that way and the issue of 1099s simply goes away.

 

[ColchVEGAS]

Geno just mentioned in an interview he believes there should be a contract and buyout for the athletes and I agree. This is now professional sports, we can pretend it's not and call it whatever we want but it does not change what it actually is.