Should schools have to pay for transfers?

[alphasigko]

This is now professional sports, we can pretend it's not and call it whatever we want but it does not change what it actually is.

Well said

 

[Waquoit]

They are scheduled and told how, when, and where to work. There is an ongoing 1-4 year relationship. They don't buy their own stuff. They pass literally none of the tests to be an independent contractor.

Why do pro wrestlers get away with it?

 

[auror]

Why do pro wrestlers get away with it?

A big difference is team sports vs. individuals. Most wrestlers are free to sign with other promoters/tours/companies and do only certain events at their own whim. They do a gig at a time, like an actor. They arrange their own travel and accommodations. Even still, they are very much in the grey area, and it seems like they are taking advantage of certain friendly state laws in the state they are based in (CT). The NCAA is composed of schools in each state, and each would have to abide by local laws which may be stricter on the front of being exclusive to 1 employer among other things.

Being part of a college basketball team means you have to practice and then play every game as part of the schedule. The NCAA does not allow you to play for multiple teams. College sports could probably find a way to finagle a gray area so that the athletes were contractors, but it would not look the same as it currently does. Most team sport professional athletes are W2 employees.

 

[SubbaBub]

If you think you can get top players to sign such agreements then go for it.

It's the wild west but I don't think such a clause would be successful.

It's more likely, but still not likely at all, that some school (collective) will sue another school (collective) for tampering.

Until there are universal rules, this is what we'll get.

 

[Skiblets]

There was an article this week about Big 10
Schools and nil companies placing retention language into their NIL contracts such that if a player leaves within a given period they’d have to pay something back. Along the lines of a bonus paid when an exec gets hired.

Seemed to pass the sniff test legally but could put Big schools at a competitive disadvantage if others school aren’t doing the payback if you leave thing. Comes back to no common rules for all schools to follow

 

[Vowelguy]

There was an article this week about Big 10
Schools and nil companies placing retention language into their NIL contracts such that if a player leaves within a given period they’d have to pay something back. Along the lines of a bonus paid when an exec gets hired.

Seemed to pass the sniff test legally but could put Big schools at a competitive disadvantage if others school aren’t doing the payback if you leave thing. Comes back to no common rules for all schools to follow

This is actually somewhat close to what I was thinking -- if you take a player then you have to pay the NIL that the original school had given to the player last season.

in the example above, "the player" would have to pay the school back, but effectively they'd be using the new NIL they get from the destination school.

 

[NHUConnfan]

I have been an Independent Cotractor for over 30 years, and I am always scheduled and told when and where to work by my clients. And yes, I buy my own stuff, and pay for lodging and meals when I am working away from my home base. The University could charge for uniforms, room and board and the "student" athlete could write those off as bona fide expenses. They could also be billed for Tuition whch would also be a write off expense and hence reduce the taxes they pay on their NIL Income.

These kids are making big bucks for playing a game. I see no reason why they should not pay for these things like adults do in real jobs. Welcome to the real world.

Then you're not an independent contractor and you're being screwed out of benefits. That's a YOU problem.

 

[alphasigko]

Then you're not an independent contractor and you're being screwed out of benefits. That's a YOU problem.

Obviously you do not have a clue about independent contracting. And yes, I am responsible to get my own health insurance, and do not have a 401K, but I do have an IRA. I do not see these as "problems". I have clients to whom I am obligated to do what they request me to do and where and when I should do it.

 

[temery]

Absolutely not. Any player that signs of the school plays for school and then wants to transfer does so at their own risk. And they should also have to sit a year. If anyone wants to pay them to sit good for them, but they should have to sit.

 

[Vowelguy]

And they should also have to sit a year.

That ship has sailed.

 

[NHUConnfan]

Obviously you do not have a clue about independent contracting. And yes, I am responsible to get my own health insurance, and do not have a 401K, but I do have an IRA. I do not see these as "problems". I have clients to whom I am obligagted to do what they request me to do and where and when I should do it.

The very nature of the work that athletes do, they cannot be contractors. Full stop.

 

[Ewekon]

If a rose is a rose by any other name, why then is a paid, or "salaried" "student athlete" who is watched by paying customers (fans) on advertising supported TV, not an employee? We are no longer trading tuition, room and board for athletic talent. We're talking cash.

I come by this questioning with serious intent as I have no legal footing. At this point, why can't a student be professionally contracted, or obligated to play for a school so long as both sides agree on payment amount? It is now out in the open.

Business Lawyer? Other Barristers? Honest thoughts/questions.

 

[NHUConnfan]

If a rose is a rose by any other name, why then is a paid, or "salaried" "student athlete" who is watched by paying customers (fans) on advertising supported TV, not an employee? We are no longer trading tuition, room and board for athletic talent. We're talking cash.

I come by this questioning with serious intent as I have no legal footing. At this point, why can't a student be professionally contracted, or obligated to play for a school so long as both sides agree on payment amount? It is now out in the open.

Business Lawyer? Other Barristers? Honest thoughts/questions.

Because right now, in the eyes of the law, they are still not employees, although several recent decisions have opinions that openly muse that they are in fact employees.

The entire economics of college athletics relies on the fact that they are not employees. Other students get tuition, healthcare, etc. as part of recruitment packages, so that's above board. But once they start entering contracts specifically around their duties as athletes, that enters a whole new territory that we're not in. That's why payments are happening for NIL (name, image, and likeness)...not actually competing as an athlete.

 

[alphasigko]

The very nature of the work that athletes do, they cannot be contractors. Full stop.

So says you, so I guess it must be true.

 

[Ewekon]

Because right now, in the eyes of the law, they are still not employees, although several recent decisions have opinions that openly muse that they are in fact employees.

The entire economics of college athletics relies on the fact that they are not employees. Other students get tuition, healthcare, etc. as part of recruitment packages, so that's above board. But once they start entering contracts specifically around their duties as athletes, that enters a whole new territory that we're not in. That's why payments are happening for NIL (name, image, and likeness)...not actually competing as an athlete.

So.....what was the case, now actually is the case for college football and basketball as compared to pro baseball. Name brand schools are AAA and pay at a level with the idea that within a year or two, the player goes to the majors or leaves anyway.

 

[Waquoit]

Absolutely not. Any player that signs of the school plays for school and then wants to transfer does so at their own risk. And they should also have to sit a year. If anyone wants to pay them to sit good for them, but they should have to sit.

Why? Just cuz?

 

[auror]

So says you, so I guess it must be true.

Feel free to go on the IRS website, look at the 1099 criteria vs W2 and apply how it would fit the athletes. Even better, feel free to copy/paste the criteria and annotate it with your comments.

 

[alphasigko]

As I noted in a previous post, if the "student athletes" create a Sub S or LLC that takes the 1099 or W2 from the University off the table. They would however need to pay themselves from the Corp and have their accountant issue them a W2 for what they are paid from the Corp.

 

[auror]

As I noted in a previous post, if the "student athletes" create a Sub S or LLC that takes the 1099 or W2 from the University off the table. They would however need to pay themselves from the Corp and have their accountant issue them a W2 for what they are paid from the Corp.

This does not work. The IRS can look through entity status to characterize employee/employer relationship. If you should be a W-2 employee, it does not matter what you actually are. What matters is the company is defrauding the government by not paying its share of personnel taxes (pushing it onto the individual) and potentially violating employee protections that are there for a reason.

 

[NHUConnfan]

As I noted in a previous post, if the "student athletes" create a Sub S or LLC that takes the 1099 or W2 from the University off the table. They would however need to pay themselves from the Corp and have their accountant issue them a W2 for what they are paid from the Corp.

Lawyers would absolutely shred through that logic lol

This also requires that the students want to be contractors instead of employees, which they do not.

 

[auror]

Lawyers would absolutely shred through that logic lol

This also requires that the students want to be contractors instead of employees, which they do not.

Yes, now if the student athletes and college stakeholders sat down and discussed what would be a good compromise on salaries and benefits (perhaps a sliding scale based on school revenue) such that would allow the entire enterprise to continue to exist while classifying the athletes as employees and giving them the protections granted by that and also providing an avenue to settle future disputes, wouldn't that be great? ...And we just discovered collective bargaining.

 

[superjohn]

Yes, now if the student athletes and college stakeholders sat down and discussed what would be a good compromise on salaries and benefits (perhaps a sliding scale based on school revenue) such that would allow the entire enterprise to continue to exist while classifying the athletes as employees and giving them the protections granted by that and also providing an avenue to settle future disputes, wouldn't that be great? ...And we just discovered collective bargaining.

Title 9 always throws a wrench into everything.

 

[Greg]

Obviously you do not have a clue about independent contracting. And yes, I am responsible to get my own health insurance, and do not have a 401K, but I do have an IRA. I do not see these as "problems". I have clients to whom I am obligated to do what they request me to do and where and when I should do it.

My thought on this is why not ger the freshmen getting Big NI L to need to sign a contract with punitive buyouts for transferring without an approval from the Athletic Dept.

 

[NHUConnfan]

My thought on this is why not ger the freshmen getting Big NI L to need to sign a contract with punitive buyouts for transferring without an approval from the Athletic Dept.

NIL contracts raise big questions on employment and pay-for-play

Direct payments to athletes in the expected $2.8 billion NCAA settlement might not solve schools' legal woes

www.espn.com

It's very clear in this article that such statements (which do exist) almost certainly makes athletes into employees.

It will be litigated. The universities and NCAA will lose. And every college athlete will become an employee, monumentally increasing costs to run athletic programs. It will kill college athletics. You may have a few schools who can run football and basketball programs. The rest can kiss their programs goodbye.

 

[temery]

One argument in favor of player transfers has been “if coaches can move from school to school without sitting out, why shouldn’t players?”

But most coaches have a buyout that needs to be to their original school. Should something like that exist for players? I’m sure it won’t happen, but it would help mitigate — if only just a little — the loss that mid-majors are now experiencing, where anyone good immediately leaves.

Can NIL deals be for multiple years?

And players should only be allowed to transfer once without. After that, future transfers must sit a year.