Rumor---NBC will pay $20-24 million per year to ND (contract renewal)

[BlueMAB]

I'm not really sure what the Seton Hall argument is even about, but I'll chime in:

Coaching/recruiting is obviously more important that conference affiliation, but conference affiliation in this regard is only going to help Memphis. More exposure, more tv dollars and better competition. Those three things should be key in getting better coaches, retaining better coaches and getting better players.

Not sure what you want from Seton Hall though? They are probably better suited to be in the Atlantic 10 instead of playing with state funded institutions and the catholics that invest more into their programs. They've made some bad hires, like Bobby Gonzalez, but it looks like Willard could be a good one. The fact that they play in the Big East is probably the reason why they were able to get to hire either of those coaches.

The conference alone isn't going to obviously dictate your success but it's certainly a platform that other schools in C-USA or the A10 can't offer.

It's not just about Seton Hall.

The argument made by many posters in support of the basketball additions is "they are joining the big east, they'll be able to recruit better players, and therefore they'll be more succesful".

Yes, they'll be able to recruit better players. They are also going to play in a much tougher conference, and they are going face much better coaching. And there are a number of other teams joining the big east that will make that same recruiting pitch. there are also programs that have long standing reputations in the big east and will continue to sell that. bottom line, it will be coaching that decides the fate of these programs.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I didn't accuse you of saying 'surpass', I said you made the comparison, there's the proof.

If Memphis has already surpassed Pitt, surely they've surpassed Cincy in the process.

are you serious? Your post suggested it when you brought up Cincy. I can copy and paste as well...

They are a good program in a crappy conference. I expect they'll be better than DePaul, but don't see why they would be any better than Cincinatti. Louisville? No way.

who mentioned Cincy? And I never said they'd surpass UofL. I said that they could become the next Louisville in 5 years. Big difference.

And now you want to suggest that Pitt is a better program than Cincy? On what basis?

 

[mattp]

just because some knucklehead reporter calls it a bball move b/c their bball program is better than their fb program doesn't make it so. all of our moves were football moves. we didn't need more bball teams, that's why half of the additions are for fb only. we added them b/c of market demographics, and the potential of their football program. memphis may improve our bball conference overall, but if they didn't have a 1A football team they wouldn't have been invited to join the Big East, plain and simple.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

One thing that irks me is the attitude towards Houston. for years, many (not necessarily from this board) spoke of DePaul & St John's, and their glory days from the early-mid 1980's, claiming that returning to that level would not be unreasonable. Houston did better, for longer than either of those schools (basically Elvin Hayes through Hakeem Olajuwon). Personally, I don't view it as unreasonable to offer Houston the same courtesy that many were offering Str John's and DePaul.

On Seton Hall, I give them some credit for at least trying (albeit, very misguided at times) when many of the other catholic members were merely going through the motions. Their biggest mistake was believing they could do better than where Louis Orr had them (almost always above the bottom third of the conference, on many years capable of cracking the top third of the conference). If they realized their limitations, they would be far better off today.

Anyone who doesn't realize that Memphis and Temple are already well above the bulk of the catholic membership 9and even some of the state schools) in the BE hasn't been paying attention.

 

[Marty Jackson]

just because some knucklehead reporter calls it a bball move b/c their bball program is better than their fb program doesn't make it so. all of our moves were football moves. we didn't need more bball teams, that's why half of the additions are for fb only. we added them b/c of market demographics, and the potential of their football program. memphis may improve our bball conference overall, but if they didn't have a 1A football team they wouldn't have been invited to join the Big East, plain and simple.

I think Temple fb was added out of neccessity for 2012. BB isn't joining until 2013.
There are a lot of D1 FB programs that we could have added that were better than Memphis. this was an olive branch to the BB schools.

 

[UConnDan97]

are you serious? Your post suggested it when you brought up Cincy. I can copy and paste as well...

They are a good program in a crappy conference. I expect they'll be better than DePaul, but don't see why they would be any better than Cincinatti. Louisville? No way.

who mentioned Cincy? And I never said they'd surpass UofL. I said that they could become the next Louisville in 5 years. Big difference.

And now you want to suggest that Pitt is a better program than Cincy? On what basis?

Don't get mad, Marty. He doesn't read others' posts.

 

[UConnDan97]

I think Temple fb was added out of neccessity for 2012. BB isn't joining until 2013.
There are a lot of D1 FB programs that we could have added that were better than Memphis. this was an olive branch to the BB schools.

That's absolutely true. If it weren't true, ECU would currently be in the Big East. Simple as that.

 

[mattp]

I think Temple fb was added out of neccessity for 2012. BB isn't joining until 2013.
There are a lot of D1 FB programs that we could have added that were better than Memphis. this was an olive branch to the BB schools.

Louisville said they along with Cinci wanted Memphis as a regional rival as well. they all share a CUSA (and Metro Conference before that) history. Memphis was added to keep Louisville more than Georgetown

 

[mattp]

J

Yeah. I'm speaking for the media. Nobody out there believes that Memphis is a good bball team, huh? This was the first page of a Google search, and I am not going to venture onto page 2...enjoy, everyone.

who are you arguing with? i don't recall anyone saying that Memphis isn't a good bball team.

 

[UConnDan97]

who are you arguing with? i don't recall anyone saying that Memphis isn't a good bball team.

It was an argument with WingU, primarily. I basically made the comment that the media and the nation view Memphis as a very good basketball team, and he took offense that I was "speaking for the media." I posted all of those media links in order to drive my point home, but I realized that it's petty and I just removed it from the thread. Maybe my removing the thread is my olive branch to WingU.

 

[UConnDan97]

Louisville said they along with Cinci wanted Memphis as a regional rival as well. they all share a CUSA (and Metro Conference before that) history. Memphis was added to keep Louisville more than Georgetown

I think that more is being made of the L'Ville / Cincy / Memphis rivalries than what is there. The reason I say that is because they aren't even sure that they will be in the same divisions together at this point, and most of the alignments that I have seen thus far (North-South, East-West, or "one from each state") don't seem to have the Ville playing in the same division as Memphis anyways. I could be wrong. But everything I have seen to this point was that it was mostly a move to placate all of the basketball schools. It also helps that they have a large media market and FedEx on their side, so it wasn't just basketball.

 

[mattp]

all said and done you never know why the BE does what it does. i'm still waiting to hear the rationale for DePaul. i would think you have to have UofL and Memphis in the same bracket. Louisville is probably the only school that's within a bus ride of Memphis, and the three were actually considered rivals when they were all together in CUSA. not the biggest rivalry in the world, but the three of them were longer and more fierce rivals than the northeast BE threesome of Cuse, Rutgers and UConn, so it would be wise to nurture it. now that the Backyard Brawl is gone, these are probably the Big East's biggest all sports rivalries, which is odd to say considering it's really a Metro conference rivalry

 

[UConnDan97]

all said and done you never know why the BE does what it does. i'm still waiting to hear the rationale for DePaul. i would think you have to have UofL and Memphis in the same bracket. Louisville is probably the only school that's within a bus ride of Memphis, and the three were actually considered rivals when they were all together in CUSA. not the biggest rivalry in the world, but the three of them were longer and more fierce rivals than the northeast BE threesome of Cuse, Rutgers and UConn, so it would be wise to nurture it. now that the Backyard Brawl is gone, these are probably the Big East's biggest all sports rivalries, which is odd to say considering it's really a Metro conference rivalry

I agree with you, but I think that everything I have heard leading up to this point was that L'Ville really preferred to be in the East division of an East/West alignment and there was almost no chance of Memphis being in the East division. I could be wrong and they could send the Ville West, but I think that would peeve them off big time and perhaps not be in the spirit of throwing them a bone.

At the end of the day, does it even matter if we throw them a bone? If they are offered from another conference, they are gone. I think that the NBE should align the teams in the best interest of the conference as a whole. And I think that would mean both Cincy and Ville joining Memphis in the West along with Boise, SDSU, SMU, and Houston. That would keep UConn, Rutgers, Temple, USF, UCF, and Navy together in the East (the "I-95 Division"). But I have also heard that the BE will throw Temple out west, too. Weird...

 

[BlueMAB]

are you serious? Your post suggested it when you brought up Cincy. I can copy and paste as well...

They are a good program in a crappy conference. I expect they'll be better than DePaul, but don't see why they would be any better than Cincinatti. Louisville? No way.

who mentioned Cincy? And I never said they'd surpass UofL. I said that they could become the next Louisville in 5 years. Big difference.

And now you want to suggest that Pitt is a better program than Cincy? On what basis?

I see what you mean. I did suggest it, but I didn't mean to. Poor choice of words in that post, I just meant that Memphis isn't even approaching the status of Louisville, and it would take a lot for them to surpass them.

In order to become Ville, who has about 9 final fours, 2 national championships, several big east championships, and a lot more tradition. Memphis would have to win several big east and a couple national championships within the next 5 years. Their achievements aren't even close to what Ville has accomplished. This is what's necessary to surpass Ville in 5 years, and if upgrading to the Big East alone is enough to do that, then I think people are forgetting how difficult playing in the big east is. A recruiting bump alone isn't enough. Maybe Pastner is the guy, but that remains to be seen. He'll have to be incredible to do what you think they can.

Historically, because of a good run in the 1960's, Cincy has more overall success than Pitt.

As far as Big East play, Pitt has had more success than Cincy. Pitt has been atrocious in NCAA play, but Cincy hasn't equaled Pitt's Big East performances. I don't think a couple sweet 16 appearances are more impressive than a big east regular season/tournament championship. You only have to win 2 games to get to the sweet 16. Winning the big east is far more difficult than that.

 

[BlueMAB]

Don't get mad, Marty. He doesn't read others' posts.

Nice to meet you Mr. Kettle.

Still waiting for an explanation on why playing in the Big East hasn't gotten Seton Hall back to the final four since 1989. Anytime you're ready, I'm looking forward to reading it.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I see what you mean. I did suggest it, but I didn't mean to. Poor choice of words in that post, I just meant that Memphis isn't even approaching the status of Louisville, and it would take a lot for them to surpass them.

In order to become Ville, who has about 9 final fours, 2 national championships, several big east championships, and a lot more tradition. Memphis would have to win several big east and a couple national championships within the next 5 years. Their achievements aren't even close to what Ville has accomplished. This is what's necessary to surpass Ville in 5 years, and if upgrading to the Big East alone is enough to do that, then I think people are forgetting how difficult playing in the big east is. A recruiting bump alone isn't enough. Maybe Pastner is the guy, but that remains to be seen. He'll have to be incredible to do what you think they can.

Historically, because of a good run in the 1960's, Cincy has more overall success than Pitt.

As far as Big East play, Pitt has had more success than Cincy. Pitt has been atrocious in NCAA play, but Cincy hasn't equaled Pitt's Big East performances. I don't think a couple sweet 16 appearances are more impressive than a big east regular season/tournament championship. You only have to win 2 games to get to the sweet 16. Winning the big east is far more difficult than that.

Appreciate the change in tone...
I wasn't suggesting that Pastner could replicate all UofL's achievements in 5 years. My point was that they are on the up swing. And if this trend continues, they could be where Louisville is. A top program in the BE, challenging for the BE title, national exposure, and the expectation of advancing deep in the tourney (not just making it).
And again, you keep using the word surpass. All I said was Memphis could be the next Louisville. And curiously, how many BE titles has UofL won? Wasn't last year their first?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I see what you mean. I did suggest it, but I didn't mean to. Poor choice of words in that post, I just meant that Memphis isn't even approaching the status of Louisville, and it would take a lot for them to surpass them.

In order to become Ville, who has about 9 final fours, 2 national championships, several big east championships, and a lot more tradition. Memphis would have to win several big east and a couple national championships within the next 5 years. Their achievements aren't even close to what Ville has accomplished. This is what's necessary to surpass Ville in 5 years, and if upgrading to the Big East alone is enough to do that, then I think people are forgetting how difficult playing in the big east is. A recruiting bump alone isn't enough. Maybe Pastner is the guy, but that remains to be seen. He'll have to be incredible to do what you think they can.

Historically, because of a good run in the 1960's, Cincy has more overall success than Pitt.

As far as Big East play, Pitt has had more success than Cincy. Pitt has been atrocious in NCAA play, but Cincy hasn't equaled Pitt's Big East performances. I don't think a couple sweet 16 appearances are more impressive than a big east regular season/tournament championship. You only have to win 2 games to get to the sweet 16. Winning the big east is far more difficult than that.

Why does Memphis have to win two NC's in the next five years to match Louisville who hasn't won one in 26 years? We get that Louisville is a great program, but let's put a little bit of perspective around it. They have two Final Fours in the last 26 years. Their Sweet 16 track record is impressive, 10 in the last 24 years, I will give them that.

Pitt has been terrible to mediocre for most of the history of the Big East. In many ways, they are the inverse of Seton Hall, who was very good for a while, with much more tournament success than Pitt ever experienced, followed by 20 years of mediocrity and bad basketball.

I think your argument boils down to: Because Seton Hall is not good, therefore the Big East can not make a team better. Got it.

 

[BlueMAB]

Why does Memphis have to win two NC's in the next five years to match Louisville who hasn't won one in 26 years? We get that Louisville is a great program, but let's put a little bit of perspective around it. They have two Final Fours in the last 26 years. Their Sweet 16 track record is impressive, 10 in the last 24 years, I will give them that.

Pitt has been terrible to mediocre for most of the history of the Big East. In many ways, they are the inverse of Seton Hall, who was very good for a while, with much more tournament success than Pitt ever experienced, followed by 20 years of mediocrity and bad basketball.

I think your argument boils down to: Because Seton Hall is not good, therefore the Big East can not make a team better. Got it.

How else does Memphis equal a program with more national championships, 2 or 3x as many final fours, and a couple big east championships without winning national championships, going to some more final fours, and winning a couple big east championships?

In the time Cincy has been in the big east, Pitt has performed better.

My argument is, there are numerous teams who are perennially stuck in the bottom half of the big east. Occasionally those teams have "bubble years", but they go back to the bottom. There are programs at the top, that occasionally go down to the bubble, but eventually rise back up to the top. It takes more than a recruiting bump from joining to succeed in this conference, it takes coaching. Even the best schools go south fast with bad coaching hires.

 

[BlueMAB]

Appreciate the change in tone...
I wasn't suggesting that Pastner could replicate all UofL's achievements in 5 years. My point was that they are on the up swing. And if this trend continues, they could be where Louisville is. A top program in the BE, challenging for the BE title, national exposure, and the expectation of advancing deep in the tourney (not just making it).
And again, you keep using the word surpass. All I said was Memphis could be the next Louisville. And curiously, how many BE titles has UofL won? Wasn't last year their first?

I'll give you Memphis is better positioned than any of the other schools except maybe Temple.

I didn't mean to use the word surpass again, multi-tasking. Sorry. I meant equal.

Louisville has 2 tourney champs- 2008-09, 2011-12, 1 regular season champ. 08-09

 

[UConnDan97]

Nice to meet you Mr. Kettle.

Still waiting for an explanation on why playing in the Big East hasn't gotten Seton Hall back to the final four since 1989. Anytime you're ready, I'm looking forward to reading it.

You just won't let a sleeping dog lie, will you? Okay. I tried to take the high road, but f' it. I will explain to you how the Big East hasn't gotten Seton Hall back to the final four since 1989 the second that you explain to me how many Final Fours the Pittsburgh Panthers have been to (you know, the team that has been the crux of the entire argument!)?

I'll save you the trouble, since you won't answer the question for all of the eager Boneyarders. They have been to 1. That's right. 1. Back in 1941 (yes, 1941, when WWII started for the US). Under HC "Doc" Carlson. How come Jamie Dixon didn't get them there? How come Ben Howland didn't get them there either? Could it be that the Final Four is not the appropriate measure of an elite basketball program??? OH NO!!! WHAT?? As it turns out, Pitt would need to go to the Final Four one more time to equal.....DePaul....

TheTruth.com

Now please stop. Seriously.

 

[UConnDan97]

WingU continues to focus on the fact that Seton Hall is not a perennial top25 team and saying, "What has the Big East done for them?!?" The point is what were they BEFORE they were in the Big East! Since that Final Four in 1989, They have been to the Elite 8 (1991), Sweet 16 (1992), BE / BE Tourney Champs (1993), NCAA tourney in 1994, 2000, 2004, and 2006. They have been to the NIT in 1995, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2010, and 2012.

This is a private school with less than 5,300 students!! And they are consistently in the postseason?? Now you want to use them as the barometer for what will happen to Memphis (pop. 18,000). That's fine to do, so long as you are honest with yourself and others that Seton Hall is much better of a team after joining the Big East than they ever were without. So if Memphis gets any improvement at all, building on the fact that they are a top25 caliber program, they will be in very good shape. That's the point. That has been the point for about 5 pages of this God-forsaken thread. And it's a point that you refuse to admit holds any water. That's fine. Then just let it be...

 

[whaler11]

WingU continues to focus on the fact that Seton Hall is not a perennial top25 team and saying, "What has the Big East done for them?!?" The point is what were they BEFORE they were in the Big East! Since that Final Four in 1989, They have been to the Elite 8 (1991), Sweet 16 (1992), BE / BE Tourney Champs (1993), NCAA tourney in 1994, 2000, 2004, and 2006. They have been to the NIT in 1995, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2010, and 2012.

This is a private school with less than 5,300 students!! And they are consistently in the postseason?? Now you want to use them as the barometer for what will happen to Memphis (pop. 18,000). That's fine to do, so long as you are honest with yourself and others that Seton Hall is much better of a team after joining the Big East than they ever were without. So if Memphis gets any improvement at all, building on the fact that they are a top25 caliber program, they will be in very good shape. That's the point. That has been the point for about 5 pages of this God-forsaken thread. And it's a point that you refuse to admit holds any water. That's fine. Then just let it be...

Can I tell you both that you have a point? In theory being in the Big East should help Memphis - but it certainly hasn't helped a number of schools in the recent past. Seton Hall, DePaul, Providence, Rutgers.... even St. John's. None of those schools should be as bad/mediocre as they have been for this long if simply being in the league is a big advantage. Memphis has advantages over those schools even without being in the league - bigger fan base, huge building, loose admission standards. On paper the idea that Memphis will step up makes sense, there is just no guarantee that they immediately step up in class without Cal just because they need to.

Seton Hall was better because of the Big East, but the landscape is much different in 2013 and forward than it was when the Big East launched. The football schools have athletic money that Seton Hall can only dream of and because of this even if they finally find a coach like PJ, they will have a hell of a time keeping him. At the Big East level only Villanova, Georgetown and Marquette have been able to keep up - and even their success is less consistent than UConn, Syracuse and Pitt. Memphis has an upside like Marquette - big following in a decent sized city where basketball matters - I still won't believe they can get to the next level beyond that until they do.

 

[UConnDan97]

Can I tell you both that you have a point? In theory being in the Big East should help Memphis - but it certainly hasn't helped a number of schools in the recent past. Seton Hall, DePaul, Providence, Rutgers.... even St. John's. None of those schools should be as bad/mediocre as they have been for this long if simply being in the league is a big advantage. Memphis has advantages over those schools even without being in the league - bigger fan base, huge building, loose admission standards. On paper the idea that Memphis will step up makes sense, there is just no guarantee that they immediately step up in class without Cal just because they need to.

Seton Hall was better because of the Big East, but the landscape is much different in 2013 and forward than it was when the Big East launched. The football schools have athletic money that Seton Hall can only dream of and because of this even if they finally find a coach like PJ, they will have a hell of a time keeping him. At the Big East level only Villanova, Georgetown and Marquette have been able to keep up - and even their success is less consistent than UConn, Syracuse and Pitt. Memphis has an upside like Marquette - big following in a decent sized city where basketball matters - I still won't believe they can get to the next level beyond that until they do.

I understand what you are saying (or at least I think I do), that none of those schools are perennial top25 contenders. But what I feel people are losing sight of is the fact that Seton Hall has a smaller student body than Quinnipiac! Seriously, it is about 400 people smaller than Quinnipiac. If you were to tell Quinnipiac that by joining the Big East, they would be a perennial top50-top60 program, with interchangeable years in the NCAA and NIT tourneys (more NIT's, admittedly), they would be jumping off of the top of their dorms for joy. That's the difference.

Being in the Big East has allowed a Quinnipiac-like school in Seton Hall to recruit NBA caliber players (I think 11 or 12 since the late 80's). The Terry Dehere's and Sam Dalembert's of the world. That's really saying something. I'm not saying that Memphis will be bigger than UConn, and God I hope not, but what I am saying is that I fully expect them to be a perennial top25 player and a tournament team to be feared year in and year out.

 

[whaler11]

I understand what you are saying (or at least I think I do), that none of those schools are perennial top25 contenders. But what I feel people are losing sight of is the fact that Seton Hall has a smaller student body than Quinnipiac! Seriously, it is about 400 people smaller than Quinnipiac. If you were to tell Quinnipiac that by joining the Big East, they would be a perennial top50-top60 program, with interchangeable years in the NCAA and NIT tourneys (more NIT's, admittedly), they would be jumping off of the top of their dorms for joy. That's the difference.

Being in the Big East has allowed a Quinnipiac-like school in Seton Hall to recruit NBA caliber players (I think 11 or 12 since the late 80's). The Terry Dehere's and Sam Dalembert's of the world. That's really saying something. I'm not saying that Memphis will be bigger than UConn, and God I hope not, but what I am saying is that I fully expect them to be a perennial top25 player and a tournament team to be feared year in and year out.

Actually none of those teams ever sniff the Top 25. I think that being a perennial Top 25 team and being feared come tournament time every year is a very high standard. There aren't that many teams that fit that description - that is part of my overall point - losing 3 of them is a huge blow to the Big East.

 

[UConnDan97]

Actually none of those teams ever sniff the Top 25. I think that being a perennial Top 25 team and being feared come tournament time every year is a very high standard. There aren't that many teams that fit that description - that is part of my overall point - losing 3 of them is a huge blow to the Big East.

Who doesn't ever sniff the Top 25? Seton Hall or Memphis? Seton Hall was ranked 23rd in January before they fell out of the top 25, and Memphis was as high as 8th in November. Or are you talking about Providence, Rutgers, and St. John's. If you are talking about them, then yes, I agree that the days of God Shammgod are over. St. John's, however....do not be surprised to see them back in the next two years. Lavin is a hell of a coach, and he has that city starting to get excited about St. John's again (which is dangerous). If he wasn't sick this past year, I think things may have shaken out a little differently for that team.