Replacing a Legend and Recovering

[intlzncster]

I know. But his team would beat ours anyway. I'm just desperate for a guy who can coach. I do think Amaker should be high on the list.

Why though? What has he shown as a HC over the last 20 years? He's been in charge of 3 D1 basketball programs. He was middle of the pack or less with the 2 Majors.

What he's done at Harvard is certainly commendable. But it seems like he's found his niche, rather than deserving of more. You can certainly argue he's learned and grown, but I do think Ivy's are different beasts. IDK

There's better candidates imo.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

I know. But his team would beat ours anyway. I'm just desperate for a guy who can coach. I do think Amaker should be high on the list.

Ooooo, I like the idea of Amaker. Only drawback is, could he recruit at the level of UConn?

 

[intlzncster]

When Skerry was at PC there was talk about having him be head coach after the Ken Davis fiasco. He should get a long look.
Leonard Hamilton has been at FSU for 13 or so years, Miami and pros before that, don't see him leaving the South
Firing Ollie now gives them a leg up before having to compete against other programs when they look for new coaches

I don't think so. I think it really only accomplishes 2 things: allowing recruits and players to more easily find new spots, and to further damage the brand nationally (mid season basketball firing is unusual). No coach of a mid tier is going to want to be interviewing or taking a job mid season either. They don't want to hurt their current program more than they already have. jmo

A school as prominent as UCONN shouldn't have too much trouble against the competition (also-ran's); it's not like they are going up against the Dukes of the world.

 

[Matrim55]

Ooooo, I like the idea of Amaker. Only drawback is, could he recruit at the level of UConn?

No, the drawbacks are that he failed at Seton Hall, failed at Michigan, and is now trending downward at Harvard after six admittedly very strong years.

If he's our next coach we're in trouble.

 

[superjohn]

No way on Amaker.

 

[lange10]

No site list URI's recruiting as a top 25. U making stuff up for Dannyboy again. He got 1 four star and 2 three stars players. Ollie has 4 four stars coming in if u count Sid Wilson as a freshman

2018 Basketball Team Rankings

Look harder next time. With our brand and facilities it'll only be a matter of time before Hurley is regularly hauling top 20 classes to UConn. Plot twist, though. These top 20 classes will develop as players.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Ooooo, I like the idea of Amaker. Only drawback is, could he recruit at the level of UConn?

Replying to @intlzncster too.

He's recruiting well at Harvard, where he is seriously restricted in who he can take, and where he can't even offer athletic scholarships. He was so-so at Seton Hall and a little better at Michigan, but was younger then. He has done a great job at Harvard, and comes from the Coach K tree.

I don't really know who we can attract. Anybody would be a gamble, including Hurley.
Skerry hasn't done anything to excite me, and it's all been at Towson. No ranked teams or tournament appearances (Amaker has 4 tournament appearances and 2 ranked teams over that period...at an Ivy, and Hurley 1, last year).

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

No, the drawbacks are that he failed at Seton Hall, failed at Michigan, and is now trending downward at Harvard after six admittedly very strong years.

If he's our next coach we're in trouble.

I never understood the criticism of someone's body of work from like 20 years ago when they've grown and had success since. I'm willing to bet about 99% of successful people in any field went through periods of struggles before reaching success.

But if you want to have concerns about how he's had a couple of rough seasons of late, then that's a fair argument.

 

[Matrim55]

Replying to @intlzncster too.

He's recruiting well at Harvard, where he is seriously restricted in who he can take, and where he can't even offer athletic scholarships. He was so-so at Seton Hall and a little better at Michigan, but was younger then. He has done a great job at Harvard, and comes from the Coach K tree.

1. He is recruiting well at Harvard – he's had the No. 1 class in the conference four of the last five seasons, including the 2016 class that was #25 in the nation (huge accomplishment for an Ivy school). The one year he didn't have the No. 1 class in the conference, it was the No. 2 class.

2. Despite that, Harvard have been meh this year. Charitably they're the third-best team in the league. They're just 5-8 with a few losses to genuinely horrible teams. Holy Cross is brutally bad, and Manhattan's not much better.

3. Over the last four years their win total has gone like this: 27-22-14-18.

4. He wasn't "a little better" at Michigan – his team never made the tournament in his six years. He did win over 20 games 3 of his last 4 seasons, though, because he had a knack for making deep NIT runs.

5. Nonetheless, he had a losing year in his 4th season in Ann Arbor, and only one winning conference season out of sixth.

6. How in god's name is coming from the Coach K tree any sort of positive?

 

[intlzncster]

I never understood the criticism of someone's body of work from like 20 years ago when they've grown and had success since. I'm willing to bet about 99% of successful people in any field went through periods of struggles before reaching success.

But if you want to have concerns about how he's had a couple of rough seasons of late, then that's a fair argument.

Fair. His first job, I can accept average results. I might not have had a problem hiring him as a Michigan fan. But he arguably got worse at Michigan, with better facilities, brand, resources etc. And at that point, we are talking about 10 years of work in total. You would expect things to trend up somewhat during that time if a guy is learning and growing.

Now he goes to Harvard and has success. You could make a good case that is because he has found his niche at that level, not because he finally 'got it'. Maybe that type of scholar athlete is who he appeals to, or that level of competition, or what have you. The Ivy's aren't your typical mid major conference.

 

[HuskyHawk]

1. He is recruiting well at Harvard – he's had the No. 1 class in the conference four of the last five seasons, including the 2016 class that was #25 in the nation (huge accomplishment for an Ivy school). The one year he didn't have the No. 1 class in the conference, it was the No. 2 class.

2. Despite that, Harvard have been meh this year. Charitably they're the third-best team in the league. They're just 5-8 with a few losses to genuinely horrible teams. Holy Cross is brutally bad, and Manhattan's not much better.

3. Over the last four years their win total has gone like this: 27-22-14-18.

4. He wasn't "a little better" at Michigan – his team never made the tournament in his six years. He did win over 20 games 3 of his last 4 seasons, though, because he had a knack for making deep NIT runs.

5. Nonetheless, he had a losing year in his 4th season in Ann Arbor, and only one winning conference season out of sixth.

6. How in god's name is coming from the Coach K tree any sort of positive?

#2-3 (which are the same point) is the one that concerns me most. As for #6, I know we hate Duke, but K is a great coach and Amaker was a smart player.

I think Ollie will be back. I don't think they have the money to buy him out and I don't think there is any obvious upgrade that would come here. For all the glowing about Hurley, his class is not really any better than ours (just an extra 3*...I don't want more 3*s). What concerns me most about Ollie is what concerned me about Diaco...I don't see buy in from the players or competent coaching in games or schemes.

So who do you suggest? I'm really missing the coach out there that is truly impressive and who would come to UConn. Nobody is leaving a good P5 job to come to Storrs with our expectations.

 

[Matrim55]

For all the glowing about Hurley, his class is not really any better than ours (just an extra 3*...I don't want more 3*s).

Getting those quality of players to come to URI is a victory. He took over the worst team in the conference and slowly built it into a perennial 20+ win team, and built them into the best recruiting team in the A-10. He's also had a very good eye for transfers and under-the-radar talents.

You may not want any more 3*s, but the fact is that whether it's Ollie or someone new, the UConn coaching staff for the next few years is going to have to identify, land and develop at least a few 150-250-ranked players. Unless Coach K wants to move to Storrs, there's no avoiding that.

So we need a coach who's shown some facility for digging a program out of a hole.

What concerns me most about Ollie is what concerned me about Diaco...I don't see buy in from the players or competent coaching in games or schemes.

Agree 100%, and that – not recruiting – is why he needs to go.

So who do you suggest? I'm really missing the coach out there that is truly impressive and who would come to UConn. Nobody is leaving a good P5 job to come to Storrs with our expectations.

It depends on how much money we have to offer. If we can throw $2.5 million at somebody, there will be plenty of interested parties (including, perhaps, the other Hurley, as well as a few of the better-regarded Big East coaches).

 

[HuskyHawk]

Getting those quality of players to come to URI is a victory. He took over the worst team in the conference and slowly built it into a perennial 20+ win team, and built them into the best recruiting team in the A-10. He's also had a very good eye for transfers and under-the-radar talents.

You may not want any more 3*s, but the fact is that whether it's Ollie or someone new, the UConn coaching staff for the next few years is going to have to identify, land and develop at least a few 150-250-ranked players. Unless Coach K wants to move to Storrs, there's no avoiding that.

So we need a coach who's shown some facility for digging a program out of a hole.


Agree 100%, and that – not recruiting – is why he needs to go.


It depends on how much money we have to offer. If we can throw $2.5 million at somebody, there will be plenty of interested parties (including, perhaps, the other Hurley, as well as a few of the better-regarded Big East coaches).

You think Bobby Hurley (one of my most hated players of all time as a UConn fan), would leave ASU for UConn? I think he's headed to Durham in his next stop.

Which Big East coaches would come here? I'd take Chris Mack for sure. I suppose you have a point on the money....it's amazing how overpaid Ollie is.

 

[Stainmaster]

it's amazing how overpaid Ollie is.

And the trendlines of both a) the AD's financial success and b) the amount of support the state will give the university both indicate that the new coach's salary will not be very close to Ollie's.

 

[Matrim55]

You think Bobby Hurley (one of my most hated players of all time as a UConn fan), would leave ASU for UConn? I think he's headed to Durham in his next stop.

Honestly I don't think he'd come here, but I also don't think he has a chance in hell of replacing K.

Which Big East coaches would come here? I'd take Chris Mack for sure. I suppose you have a point on the money....it's amazing how overpaid Ollie is.

If the money's right, pretty much any Big East coach is get-able save for Wright.

 

[intlzncster]

I think Ollie will be back. I don't think they have the money to buy him out and I don't think there is any obvious upgrade that would come here. For all the glowing about Hurley, his class is not really any better than ours (just an extra 3*...I don't want more 3*s). What concerns me most about Ollie is what concerned me about Diaco...I don't see buy in from the players or competent coaching in games or schemes.

He's recruiting guys to URI, an A-10 school no less, who could play at UCONN. And his team plays hard and is coached well.

I don't know if a guy like that is the long term answer, but that would point to an obvious upgrade no?

According to others, he's struggled in the NE with recruiting, so getting someone on his staff who has that on lock down would be critical.

 

[pj]

2018 Basketball Team Rankings

Look harder next time. With our brand and facilities it'll only be a matter of time before Hurley is regularly hauling top 20 classes to UConn. Plot twist, though. These top 20 classes will develop as players.

Including Sid Wilson in 2018, UConn has a top 20 class. Development is an open question, KO has to prove himself. I think Hurley's ability to step up is almost as speculative as KO's though, and we don't have to pay a buy-out to keep KO. Still rooting for him.

 

[lange10]

Including Sid Wilson in 2018, UConn has a top 20 class. Development is an open question, KO has to prove himself. I think Hurley's ability to step up is almost as speculative as KO's though, and we don't have to pay a buy-out to keep KO. Still rooting for him.

Recruiting has never truly been a big issue for KO in my opinion. I was skeptical of the Chillious hire for that reason. I would’ve preferred an Associate HC with head coaching experience or a coach known for his offensive philosophies.

With that said, I disagree that Hurley’s ability to develop players is as speculative as KO. This is Hurley’s best recruiting class in his time at URI. With less talented classes he’s made an irrelevant program into a premier mid-major. Hassan Martin developed in his time, Terrell has developed into A10 POY potential, Kuran Iverson - who was written off by many - salvaged his college career under Hurley. That’s just naming a few. Hurley can coach and I’m excited for the UConn faithful to see it when he’s our next coach.

 

[Tex-Lager93]

You think Bobby Hurley (one of my most hated players of all time as a UConn fan), would leave ASU for UConn? I think he's headed to Durham in his next stop.

Which Big East coaches would come here? I'd take Chris Mack for sure. I suppose you have a point on the money....it's amazing how overpaid Ollie is.

Look, the thought of Bobby does make the bile rise up the back of my throat...but, I do think our program would be way more appealing than ASU. He’s a NJ guy, correct? He could dominate this area in recruiting - and his personality would be a much better fit in the NE. There’s no question he’s proved himself - doing more with less at Buffalo and ASU. What would he do with more? I’ve heard nil regarding a pending Coach K retirement or that Bobby would even be in line for the job. I think we deserve to aim high.

 

[pj]

Recruiting has never truly been a big issue for KO in my opinion. I was skeptical of the Chillious hire for that reason. I would’ve preferred an Associate HC with head coaching experience or a coach known for his offensive philosophies.

With that said, I disagree that Hurley’s ability to develop players is as speculative as KO. This is Hurley’s best recruiting class in his time at URI. With less talented classes he’s made an irrelevant program into a premier mid-major. Hassan Martin developed in his time, Terrell has developed into A10 POY potential, Kuran Iverson - who was written off by many - salvaged his college career under Hurley. That’s just naming a few. Hurley can coach and I’m excited for the UConn faithful to see it when he’s our next coach.

I would agree that Hurley is a good coach, but can he step up his recruiting to the level we need? Hurley has strengths KO lacks, but KO also has strengths Hurley lacks.

I do agree that KO should really get a top assistant with head coaching experience. He should really give up $500k from his salary to get a top assistant coach, and replace Moore or Killings with somebody who is strong where he is weak. Coaching a top program is a team game and he needs to know his weaknesses and his strengths, and build a staff that is strong where he is weak. I think Chillious was a good hire, KO needed a head of recruiting, clearly Miller was bringing in the wrong players and KO didn't have the ability (or perhaps the time) to lead the recruiting evaluations and strategizing by himself.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Let's examine some legendary coaches and what it took for program to get back (or near) to it's former coach's level.

All being done off top of my head without Google. Facts, dates and names will be wrong. Feel free to correct.

UCLA- Wizard of Westwood. Bartow got them to a FF. Also went to a FF with Rod Foster. Harrick got them the '95 championship and Howland got back to back (or 3 in a row FF's) in 2000's. Verdict? No where near the sustained success. Took almost 20 years after Wooden to win another and nothing in another 20 years. Program hasn't achieved any where near peak success or continual success.

Indiana- Closest to UConn. Knight leaves and Davis makes an FF soon thereafter. Went downhill quickly after the FF and really hasn't had consistent national presence in over a decade. A couple of teams cracked top 10 but no more FF's. Not even sure if there's been any E8 since the FF. Several coaching changes and styles since Davis but no where near the glory.

Georgetown- Nothing of significance since JT left. A few good teams and a FF but nothing close to dominance. 20 years since JT left, several coaches later and nothing has stuck.

Villanova- Wright has exceeded any thing from Rollie. More consistently good and nationally significant. Still 20+ years from Rollie to recovery.

UNC- Dean leaves and I can't remember the order. Guthridge? Somewhere Doherty came in as a disaster. Took poaching Good Ole Roy and an academic fraud to get back to continual success.

Kentucky- Poster child for success. Pre integration, post integration, doesn't matter. Rupp, Hall, Pitino, Tubby, Slime ball. Multiple coaches, multiple eras, multiple championships. Tough to find a 10 year stretch where they were out of picture.

Mich St.- Took some time from Heathecoat to Izzo. Heathecoat wasn't consistently great. Izzo elevated program like Wright did at Nova.

Kansas- I'm punting. Always nationally relevant but no dynasties. 3 total championships?

Duke/SU- Incomplete until replacements take over programs.

Just a sampling but UNC and Kentucky have been able to transition and both have done so with dubious methods (cheating).

Izzo and Wright elevated their programs.

Indiana and UConn are closest matches.

In other words, there's not a whole lot out there of keeping program success on cruise control. Has almost always required 10+ years and 2-3 coaching changes to get back to level of success.

 

[8893]

Great post. Went through almost the identical analysis in my head at the gym today.

Mad me happy for what I’ve been able to experience, but sad that reality dictates that we lower our expectations because the odds of us ever being great that regularly again are very low.

 

[lange10]

I would agree that Hurley is a good coach, but can he step up his recruiting to the level we need? Hurley has strengths KO lacks, but KO also has strengths Hurley lacks.

I do agree that KO should really get a top assistant with head coaching experience. He should really give up $500k from his salary to get a top assistant coach, and replace Moore or Killings with somebody who is strong where he is weak. Coaching a top program is a team game and he needs to know his weaknesses and his strengths, and build a staff that is strong where he is weak. I think Chillious was a good hire, KO needed a head of recruiting, clearly Miller was bringing in the wrong players and KO didn't have the ability (or perhaps the time) to lead the recruiting evaluations and strategizing by himself.

I see what you're saying but for me it's too little too late for Ollie. Sure he could replace Moore or Killings with an experienced coach. But from what I know and what I've heard about the wrongdoings occurring behind the scenes I want a new man leading our university. It's time for a culture change and I think Hurley would be a homerun hire. Just my $.02.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Let's examine some legendary coaches and what it took for program to get back (or near) to it's former coach's level.

All being done off top of my head without Google. Facts, dates and names will be wrong. Feel free to correct.

UCLA- Wizard of Westwood. Bartow got them to a FF. Also went to a FF with Rod Foster. Harrick got them the '95 championship and Howland got back to back (or 3 in a row FF's) in 2000's. Verdict? No where near the sustained success. Took almost 20 years after Wooden to win another and nothing in another 20 years. Program hasn't achieved any where near peak success or continual success.

Indiana- Closest to UConn. Knight leaves and Davis makes an FF soon thereafter. Went downhill quickly after the FF and really hasn't had consistent national presence in over a decade. A couple of teams cracked top 10 but no more FF's. Not even sure if there's been any E8 since the FF. Several coaching changes and styles since Davis but no where near the glory.

Georgetown- Nothing of significance since JT left. A few good teams and a FF but nothing close to dominance. 20 years since JT left, several coaches later and nothing has stuck.

Villanova- Wright has exceeded any thing from Rollie. More consistently good and nationally significant. Still 20+ years from Rollie to recovery.

UNC- Dean leaves and I can't remember the order. Guthridge? Somewhere Doherty came in as a disaster. Took poaching Good Ole Roy and an academic fraud to get back to continual success.

Kentucky- Poster child for success. Pre integration, post integration, doesn't matter. Rupp, Hall, Pitino, Tubby, Slime ball. Multiple coaches, multiple eras, multiple championships. Tough to find a 10 year stretch where they were out of picture.

Mich St.- Took some time from Heathecoat to Izzo. Heathecoat wasn't consistently great. Izzo elevated program like Wright did at Nova.

Kansas- I'm punting. Always nationally relevant but no dynasties. 3 total championships?

Duke/SU- Incomplete until replacements take over programs.

Just a sampling but UNC and Kentucky have been able to transition and both have done so with dubious methods (cheating).

Izzo and Wright elevated their programs.

Indiana and UConn are closest matches.

In other words, there's not a whole lot out there of keeping program success on cruise control. Has almost always required 10+ years and 2-3 coaching changes to get back to level of success.

We're basically at the point now where some posters are clamoring to hold onto Tubby Smith.

Let me ask this: for these programs replacing a legend, has the situation ever gotten worse upon firing a disappointing successor?

 

[pj]

I see what you're saying but for me it's too little too late for Ollie. Sure he could replace Moore or Killings with an experienced coach. But from what I know and what I've heard about the wrongdoings occurring behind the scenes I want a new man leading our university. It's time for a culture change and I think Hurley would be a homerun hire. Just my $.02.

Maybe so, but AD Benedict is in a better spot to judge that than I am. I'll root for KO as long as he's head coach, and if Hurley comes here, I'll root for him.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Weird, I felt inclined to look up the Davis years at IU and UNCoherty years for some reason today. Was just too lazy to formulate a thread. Nice job.

 

[intlzncster]

Let's examine some legendary coaches and what it took for program to get back (or near) to it's former coach's level.

Kansas- I'm punting. Always nationally relevant but no dynasties. 3 total championships?

Kansas might have the most sustained success of any of these programs, including UK. Yes, their title total isn't there, but they've had 5 Hall of Fame coaches (Naismith/Phog Allen/Larry Brown/Roy/Self). That's insane. They went to FF with every coach they've ever had in the tournament era.

I had to look this part up, but they've been in 14 FF and 6 Finals, winning 3.

 

[Matrim55]

Let me ask this: for these programs replacing a legend, has the situation ever gotten worse upon firing a disappointing successor?

Indiana after Davis hired Kelvin Sampson – a very, very good coach with a history of rules violations. Guess what happened?

They'd have been really good had Sampson just stayed clean (and to be fair, his rule violation w/ the Hoosiers was so freaking minor it's almost laughable), but he didn't, and they completely cratered. In Crean's first 3 years they went 6-25, 10-21, 12-20 while recovering from sanctions.

So, going from Davis to Sampson definitely made things worse.

Similar for UNC, who replaced Smith's hand-picked successor (Billy Guthridge) after three mediocre seasons, opting for Matt Doherty. Doherty's first season was good (26-7), but then he went 8-20 in his second and 19-16 in his third before getting the ax.

Then they hired Roy (for my money, the best coach of the post-Wooden era – sorry JC & K) and have been the best program in the country ever since.

So yeah, firing a disappointing successor can make it better, but it can also make it worse. It all comes down to the obvious thing: Make sure you hire the right guy for the job.

 

[superjohn]

We're basically at the point now where some posters are clamoring to hold onto Tubby Smith.

Let me ask this: for these programs replacing a legend, has the situation ever gotten worse upon firing a disappointing successor?

Ollie and Tubby aren't at all comparable. Granted it's Kentucky and they have the highest expectations but Tubby was way better at UK than Ollie is at Uconn. Mike Davis is the comparison you were looking for.

 

[superjohn]

Indiana after Davis hired Kelvin Sampson – a very, very good coach with a history of rules violations. Guess what happened?

They'd have been really good had Sampson just stayed clean (and to be fair, his rule violation w/ the Hoosiers was so freaking minor it's almost laughable), but he didn't, and they completely cratered. In Crean's first 3 years they went 6-25, 10-21, 12-20 while recovering from sanctions.

So, going from Davis to Sampson definitely made things worse.

Similar for UNC, who replaced Smith's hand-picked successor (Billy Guthridge) after three mediocre seasons, opting for Matt Doherty. Doherty's first season was good (26-7), but then he went 8-20 in his second and 19-16 in his third before getting the ax.

Then they hired Roy (for my money, the best coach of the post-Wooden era – sorry JC & K) and have been the best program in the country ever since.

So yeah, firing a disappointing successor can make it better, but it can also make it worse. It all comes down to the obvious thing: Make sure you hire the right guy for the job.

Love your posts but Roy over K and Calhoun? Just no.