Replacing a Legend and Recovering

[Chin Diesel]

Let's examine some legendary coaches and what it took for program to get back (or near) to it's former coach's level.

All being done off top of my head without Google. Facts, dates and names will be wrong. Feel free to correct.

UCLA- Wizard of Westwood. Bartow got them to a FF. Also went to a FF with Rod Foster. Harrick got them the '95 championship and Howland got back to back (or 3 in a row FF's) in 2000's. Verdict? No where near the sustained success. Took almost 20 years after Wooden to win another and nothing in another 20 years. Program hasn't achieved any where near peak success or continual success.

Indiana- Closest to UConn. Knight leaves and Davis makes an FF soon thereafter. Went downhill quickly after the FF and really hasn't had consistent national presence in over a decade. A couple of teams cracked top 10 but no more FF's. Not even sure if there's been any E8 since the FF. Several coaching changes and styles since Davis but no where near the glory.

Georgetown- Nothing of significance since JT left. A few good teams and a FF but nothing close to dominance. 20 years since JT left, several coaches later and nothing has stuck.

Villanova- Wright has exceeded any thing from Rollie. More consistently good and nationally significant. Still 20+ years from Rollie to recovery.

UNC- Dean leaves and I can't remember the order. Guthridge? Somewhere Doherty came in as a disaster. Took poaching Good Ole Roy and an academic fraud to get back to continual success.

Kentucky- Poster child for success. Pre integration, post integration, doesn't matter. Rupp, Hall, Pitino, Tubby, Slime ball. Multiple coaches, multiple eras, multiple championships. Tough to find a 10 year stretch where they were out of picture.

Mich St.- Took some time from Heathecoat to Izzo. Heathecoat wasn't consistently great. Izzo elevated program like Wright did at Nova.

Kansas- I'm punting. Always nationally relevant but no dynasties. 3 total championships?

Duke/SU- Incomplete until replacements take over programs.

Just a sampling but UNC and Kentucky have been able to transition and both have done so with dubious methods (cheating).

Izzo and Wright elevated their programs.

Indiana and UConn are closest matches.

In other words, there's not a whole lot out there of keeping program success on cruise control. Has almost always required 10+ years and 2-3 coaching changes to get back to level of success.

 

[8893]

Great post. Went through almost the identical analysis in my head at the gym today.

Mad me happy for what I’ve been able to experience, but sad that reality dictates that we lower our expectations because the odds of us ever being great that regularly again are very low.

 

[lange10]

I would agree that Hurley is a good coach, but can he step up his recruiting to the level we need? Hurley has strengths KO lacks, but KO also has strengths Hurley lacks.

I do agree that KO should really get a top assistant with head coaching experience. He should really give up $500k from his salary to get a top assistant coach, and replace Moore or Killings with somebody who is strong where he is weak. Coaching a top program is a team game and he needs to know his weaknesses and his strengths, and build a staff that is strong where he is weak. I think Chillious was a good hire, KO needed a head of recruiting, clearly Miller was bringing in the wrong players and KO didn't have the ability (or perhaps the time) to lead the recruiting evaluations and strategizing by himself.

I see what you're saying but for me it's too little too late for Ollie. Sure he could replace Moore or Killings with an experienced coach. But from what I know and what I've heard about the wrongdoings occurring behind the scenes I want a new man leading our university. It's time for a culture change and I think Hurley would be a homerun hire. Just my $.02.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Let's examine some legendary coaches and what it took for program to get back (or near) to it's former coach's level.

All being done off top of my head without Google. Facts, dates and names will be wrong. Feel free to correct.

UCLA- Wizard of Westwood. Bartow got them to a FF. Also went to a FF with Rod Foster. Harrick got them the '95 championship and Howland got back to back (or 3 in a row FF's) in 2000's. Verdict? No where near the sustained success. Took almost 20 years after Wooden to win another and nothing in another 20 years. Program hasn't achieved any where near peak success or continual success.

Indiana- Closest to UConn. Knight leaves and Davis makes an FF soon thereafter. Went downhill quickly after the FF and really hasn't had consistent national presence in over a decade. A couple of teams cracked top 10 but no more FF's. Not even sure if there's been any E8 since the FF. Several coaching changes and styles since Davis but no where near the glory.

Georgetown- Nothing of significance since JT left. A few good teams and a FF but nothing close to dominance. 20 years since JT left, several coaches later and nothing has stuck.

Villanova- Wright has exceeded any thing from Rollie. More consistently good and nationally significant. Still 20+ years from Rollie to recovery.

UNC- Dean leaves and I can't remember the order. Guthridge? Somewhere Doherty came in as a disaster. Took poaching Good Ole Roy and an academic fraud to get back to continual success.

Kentucky- Poster child for success. Pre integration, post integration, doesn't matter. Rupp, Hall, Pitino, Tubby, Slime ball. Multiple coaches, multiple eras, multiple championships. Tough to find a 10 year stretch where they were out of picture.

Mich St.- Took some time from Heathecoat to Izzo. Heathecoat wasn't consistently great. Izzo elevated program like Wright did at Nova.

Kansas- I'm punting. Always nationally relevant but no dynasties. 3 total championships?

Duke/SU- Incomplete until replacements take over programs.

Just a sampling but UNC and Kentucky have been able to transition and both have done so with dubious methods (cheating).

Izzo and Wright elevated their programs.

Indiana and UConn are closest matches.

In other words, there's not a whole lot out there of keeping program success on cruise control. Has almost always required 10+ years and 2-3 coaching changes to get back to level of success.

We're basically at the point now where some posters are clamoring to hold onto Tubby Smith.

Let me ask this: for these programs replacing a legend, has the situation ever gotten worse upon firing a disappointing successor?

 

[pj]

I see what you're saying but for me it's too little too late for Ollie. Sure he could replace Moore or Killings with an experienced coach. But from what I know and what I've heard about the wrongdoings occurring behind the scenes I want a new man leading our university. It's time for a culture change and I think Hurley would be a homerun hire. Just my $.02.

Maybe so, but AD Benedict is in a better spot to judge that than I am. I'll root for KO as long as he's head coach, and if Hurley comes here, I'll root for him.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Weird, I felt inclined to look up the Davis years at IU and UNCoherty years for some reason today. Was just too lazy to formulate a thread. Nice job.

 

[intlzncster]

Let's examine some legendary coaches and what it took for program to get back (or near) to it's former coach's level.

Kansas- I'm punting. Always nationally relevant but no dynasties. 3 total championships?

Kansas might have the most sustained success of any of these programs, including UK. Yes, their title total isn't there, but they've had 5 Hall of Fame coaches (Naismith/Phog Allen/Larry Brown/Roy/Self). That's insane. They went to FF with every coach they've ever had in the tournament era.

I had to look this part up, but they've been in 14 FF and 6 Finals, winning 3.

 

[Matrim55]

Let me ask this: for these programs replacing a legend, has the situation ever gotten worse upon firing a disappointing successor?

Indiana after Davis hired Kelvin Sampson – a very, very good coach with a history of rules violations. Guess what happened?

They'd have been really good had Sampson just stayed clean (and to be fair, his rule violation w/ the Hoosiers was so freaking minor it's almost laughable), but he didn't, and they completely cratered. In Crean's first 3 years they went 6-25, 10-21, 12-20 while recovering from sanctions.

So, going from Davis to Sampson definitely made things worse.

Similar for UNC, who replaced Smith's hand-picked successor (Billy Guthridge) after three mediocre seasons, opting for Matt Doherty. Doherty's first season was good (26-7), but then he went 8-20 in his second and 19-16 in his third before getting the ax.

Then they hired Roy (for my money, the best coach of the post-Wooden era – sorry JC & K) and have been the best program in the country ever since.

So yeah, firing a disappointing successor can make it better, but it can also make it worse. It all comes down to the obvious thing: Make sure you hire the right guy for the job.

 

[superjohn]

We're basically at the point now where some posters are clamoring to hold onto Tubby Smith.

Let me ask this: for these programs replacing a legend, has the situation ever gotten worse upon firing a disappointing successor?

Ollie and Tubby aren't at all comparable. Granted it's Kentucky and they have the highest expectations but Tubby was way better at UK than Ollie is at Uconn. Mike Davis is the comparison you were looking for.

 

[superjohn]

Indiana after Davis hired Kelvin Sampson – a very, very good coach with a history of rules violations. Guess what happened?

They'd have been really good had Sampson just stayed clean (and to be fair, his rule violation w/ the Hoosiers was so freaking minor it's almost laughable), but he didn't, and they completely cratered. In Crean's first 3 years they went 6-25, 10-21, 12-20 while recovering from sanctions.

So, going from Davis to Sampson definitely made things worse.

Similar for UNC, who replaced Smith's hand-picked successor (Billy Guthridge) after three mediocre seasons, opting for Matt Doherty. Doherty's first season was good (26-7), but then he went 8-20 in his second and 19-16 in his third before getting the ax.

Then they hired Roy (for my money, the best coach of the post-Wooden era – sorry JC & K) and have been the best program in the country ever since.

So yeah, firing a disappointing successor can make it better, but it can also make it worse. It all comes down to the obvious thing: Make sure you hire the right guy for the job.

Love your posts but Roy over K and Calhoun? Just no.

 

[Matrim55]

Love your posts but Roy over K and Calhoun? Just no.

Best winning percentage, 3 titles, 6 finals appearances, made the tourney in 28 out of 29 seasons (and the one they didn't they were NIT runners up), 18 trips to the second weekend, 12 30-win seasons, and a top 10 offense year after year after year after year.

If I needed to build a program from scratch, he's not the guy. If I want to take a great program and elevate it, to win 30 games (or thereabouts) decade after decade and give myself the best chance of winning multiple titles, I'm going with Roy.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Kansas might have the most sustained success of any of these programs, including UK. Yes, their title total isn't there, but they've had 5 Hall of Fame coaches (Naismith/Phog Allen/Larry Brown/Roy/Self). That's insane. They went to FF with every coach they've ever had in the tournament era.

I had to look this part up, but they've been in 14 FF and 6 Finals, winning 3.

Yeah, I get it. But no coach has won more than others. Kansas is more of a program where each coach wins a lot and every 25-30 years they win a championship. I was looking more at programs that have had a "Face of the Program" coach. At least Kentucky has had multiple coaches win multiple championships.

 

[Matrim55]

By the way: Mike Davis has more NCAA tourney appearances over the last 5 seasons (3) at Texas Southern than Ollie has at UConn (2).

 

[metsfan2323]

Yup, winning championships is difficult, that doesn't mean you stop trying. We will likely finish in the bottom half of the AAC this year, it's time for a change.

Florida did a great job replacing Donovan, Gonzaga and Xavier have replaced coaches successfully as has Butler. Cincy will be making their 8th tournament in a row this year with their replacement for Huggins.

 

[ZenConn]

We're basically at the point now where some posters are clamoring to hold onto Tubby Smith.

Let me ask this: for these programs replacing a legend, has the situation ever gotten worse upon firing a disappointing successor?

Yeah. UNC.

 

[Horatio]

Please factor in - change of conference ,
Recruiting restrictions and the ban along with replacing our legend. Say what you want but ours was a unique situation of
WTF.

 

[UConnNick]

By the way: Mike Davis has more NCAA tourney appearances over the last 5 seasons (3) at Texas Southern than Ollie has at UConn (2).

And he was also 0-13 this season until they beat the Southern U. Jaguars at home last night.

 

[UConnSwag11]

Yup, winning championships is difficult, that doesn't mean you stop trying. We will likely finish in the bottom half of the AAC this year, it's time for a change.

Florida did a great job replacing Donovan, Gonzaga and Xavier have replaced coaches successfully as has Butler. Cincy will be making their 8th tournament in a row this year with their replacement for Huggins.

but do you want to just make it or win? what about OOC? seems a lot of these schools/coaches from the OBE are doing better once UConn, Cuse, Ville, Pitt, ND, etc all left

 

[ConnHuskBask]

@Matrim55 I agree with your post and the majority of things being said here, but one thing to note about UNC and Guthridge.

I didn't realize this myself until I looked up his numbers, but Guthridge finished 2nd, 3rd and 3rd in the ACC regular season and made final fours in 2 of his 3 seasons. Then he retired.

Whether they underperformed a bit based on preseason expectations I can't comment on because I don't remember, but two final fours in 3 seasons is pretty damn good.

 

[superjohn]

Best winning percentage, 3 titles, 3 finals appearances, made the tourney in 28 out of 29 seasons (and the one they didn't they were NIT runners up), 18 trips to the second weekend, 12 30-win seasons, and a top 10 offense year after year after year after year.

If I needed to build a program from scratch, he's not the guy. If I want to take a great program and elevate it, to win 30 games (or thereabouts) decade after decade and give myself the best chance of winning multiple titles, I'm going with Roy.

It's Kansas and UNC. He's won a ton but so have a lot of guys at those schools.

 

[UConnNick]

Let's examine some legendary coaches and what it took for program to get back (or near) to it's former coach's level.

All being done off top of my head without Google. Facts, dates and names will be wrong. Feel free to correct.

UCLA- Wizard of Westwood. Bartow got them to a FF. Also went to a FF with Rod Foster. Harrick got them the '95 championship and Howland got back to back (or 3 in a row FF's) in 2000's. Verdict? No where near the sustained success. Took almost 20 years after Wooden to win another and nothing in another 20 years. Program hasn't achieved any where near peak success or continual success.

Indiana- Closest to UConn. Knight leaves and Davis makes an FF soon thereafter. Went downhill quickly after the FF and really hasn't had consistent national presence in over a decade. A couple of teams cracked top 10 but no more FF's. Not even sure if there's been any E8 since the FF. Several coaching changes and styles since Davis but no where near the glory.

Georgetown- Nothing of significance since JT left. A few good teams and a FF but nothing close to dominance. 20 years since JT left, several coaches later and nothing has stuck.

Villanova- Wright has exceeded any thing from Rollie. More consistently good and nationally significant. Still 20+ years from Rollie to recovery.

UNC- Dean leaves and I can't remember the order. Guthridge? Somewhere Doherty came in as a disaster. Took poaching Good Ole Roy and an academic fraud to get back to continual success.

Kentucky- Poster child for success. Pre integration, post integration, doesn't matter. Rupp, Hall, Pitino, Tubby, Slime ball. Multiple coaches, multiple eras, multiple championships. Tough to find a 10 year stretch where they were out of picture.

Mich St.- Took some time from Heathecoat to Izzo. Heathecoat wasn't consistently great. Izzo elevated program like Wright did at Nova.

Kansas- I'm punting. Always nationally relevant but no dynasties. 3 total championships?

Duke/SU- Incomplete until replacements take over programs.

Just a sampling but UNC and Kentucky have been able to transition and both have done so with dubious methods (cheating).

Izzo and Wright elevated their programs.

Indiana and UConn are closest matches.

In other words, there's not a whole lot out there of keeping program success on cruise control. Has almost always required 10+ years and 2-3 coaching changes to get back to level of success.

Great post. Only one minor correction: Bartow was the coach when New Britain's Rod Foster led UCLA to the 1980 Final Four. They didn't both get to the FF in separate seasons. Bartow later went on to some success with UAB. Louisville won its first title that season with "Dr. Dunk", Darrell Griffith.

 

[Excalibur]

Where have we gotten the idea that realizing that Ollie is not cut out for the job somehow equates to having unreasonable expectations?

 

[intlzncster]

I have the solution.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Great post. Only one minor correction: Bartow was the coach when New Britain's Rod Foster led UCLA to the 1980 Final Four. They didn't both get to the FF in separate seasons. Bartow later went on to some success with UAB. Louisville won its first title that season with "Dr. Dunk", Darrell Griffith.

First off, Dr. Dunkenstein was one of three posters I had on my ceiling as a kid- Dr. Dunkenstein, George "Iceman" Gervin in the silver sweats on his ice thrown, and of course, Jimmy "Superfly" Snuka flying off the top rope.


Back on topic,according to Wikipedia............

UCLA Bruins men's basketball - Wikipedia

From 1975 to 1977, Gene Bartow served as the head coach of UCLA. He guided them to a 52–9 record, including a berth in the 1976 Final Four. He coached the 1977 College Player of the Year, Marques Johnson.

Gary Cunningham became the head coach at UCLA in 1977. He coached two seasons, winning the Pacific-8 and Pacific-10 conference championships and leading UCLA to a #2 ranking in the final polls both seasons.

Larry Brown then moved on to coach UCLA from 1979–1981, leading his freshman-dominated 1979–80 team to the NCAA title game before falling to Louisville, 59–54. However, that runner-up finish was later vacated by the NCAA after two players were found to be ineligible. This was one of the few times a Final Four squad had its record vacated (Villanova had its runner-up finish vacated in 1971 because Howard Porter had signed a pro contract).[19]

 

[UConnNick]

Somewhere other than Florida State?

No.

What’s Mike Jarvis up to?

You're joking, right? Jarvis and Calhoun hate each other's guts.