Ray Allen and Andre Drummond

[Paesano]

Amazing how the basketball snobs are just incapable of getting it. Men of a certain age should be able to comprehend the concept of extending the logic of an argument to its extremes and inevitable conclusion. Sure, it involves hypotheticals but the point is to test the logic.

And, it also seems like they also act like mice trapped in a corner by a cat when faced with how horribly wrong they are. I love the strawmen of saying Curry isn't great or that the dissenters act like Ray was insulted. No one said anything like that but it is easier to beat a straw man than a man of a certain age.

Again, someone brought up a great example in Maravich. Let me try putting it another way. When talking about "greatness" it is intellectually dishonest to ignore the "value" of the players being compared. If someone brings great value for many years and someone else brings, say, 25% more value for half as many years, I will give the nod to the former. If I was going to be a team GM for one year, or even a few years, I would go with the latter. I think most people think in terms of total value over an entire career when disscussing "GOATs".

 

[Paesano]

At their peak, Curry > Allen.
As shooters, Curry > Allen.
For a full career, at the moment, Allen > Curry, but if Curry stays healthy that will shift very soon.

Exactly! It is just that simple. Another thing to consider is the value of their leadership, especially at the end of their careers. Ray was supposedly aloof but he was never an energy vampire and definitely lead by example. A VERY good example. We won't really know about Curry's impact on his team until after he retires and former teammates and coaches start talking, or not talking, about his leadership skills.

 

[TasteofUConn]

As TZZN noted, if you talk career, Curry has a ways to go. If you talk "when they were in their prime," I can't imagine how anybody thinks this is arguable. Who would take prime Ray over prime Curry? Nobody outside of a few homer-goggles UConn fans and Ray's mother, I suppose. As somebody else noted, that's not an insult.

For me, I never liked the 3 pointer, and I never will. Maybe if it was a 2.5 pointer, I'd like it somewhat. To be able to get 50% more credit for a made basket is an imbalance that skews the game and impels gunner mode. Shooting 33% from 3 is as good as shooting 50% from 2. That's quite a bonus. It also removes about a 3 foot swath of territory inside of the 3 point arc from regular usage inside the game.

3 pointers also skew the value of a guy like Curry vs. a guy like LeBron or Jordan or Oscar. LeBron and Jordan and Oscar are great talents, physical specimens, wonderful basketball players with complete games who could/can dominate inside and out, offense and defense. Those three could have excelled at any major sport, based on physical gifts alone. Curry, quite the contrary, is a guy who has mastered a single shot, and because he gets 50% more credit for making that single shot, opponents are forced to over-guard the shot, thereby opening up other facets of the game that would not exist for him if the extra credit wasn't given. Kudos to him for using his strengths to master the system.

 

[FartMan69]

Amazing how the basketball snobs are just incapable of getting it. Men of a certain age should be able to comprehend the concept of extending the logic of an argument to its extremes and inevitable conclusion. Sure, it involves hypotheticals but the point is to test the logic.

And, it also seems like they also act like mice trapped in a corner by a cat when faced with how horribly wrong they are. I love the strawmen of saying Curry isn't great or that the dissenters act like Ray was insulted. No one said anything like that but it is easier to beat a straw man than a man of a certain age.

Again, someone brought up a great example in Maravich. Let me try putting it another way. When talking about "greatness" it is intellectually dishonest to ignore the "value" of the players being compared. If someone brings great value for many years and someone else brings, say, 25% more value for half as many years, I will give the nod to the former. If I was going to be a team GM for one year, or even a few years, I would go with the latter. I think most people think in terms of total value over an entire career when disscussing "GOATs".

How does any of this babble have anything to do with who is a better shooter?

 

[Excalibur]

3 pointers also skew the value of a guy like Curry vs. a guy like LeBron or Jordan or Oscar. LeBron and Jordan and Oscar are great talents, physical specimens, wonderful basketball players with complete games who could/can dominate inside and out, offense and defense. Those three could have excelled at any major sport, based on physical gifts alone. Curry, quite the contrary, is a guy who has mastered a single shot, and because he gets 50% more credit for making that single shot, opponents are forced to over-guard the shot, thereby opening up other facets of the game that would not exist for him if the extra credit wasn't given. Kudos to him for using his strengths to master the system.

That's a bit unfair to Curry who is an outstanding all-around offensive player, gifted passer, and superior ball-handler.

I do have a sense that most of the "it's Curry, everyone shut up because I'm not sophisticated enough to argue" crowd is too young to remember Ray before his time with the Celtics, and the state of the NBA game in the late 1990's - early 2000's.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

That's a bit unfair to Curry who is an outstanding all-around offensive player, gifted passer, and superior ball-handler.

It's more than a bit unfair, it completely misrepresents his game. You can't watch Golden State play and say that Curry has mastered a "single skill." With the the exception of when they're playing Cleveland, he's the best player on the court every night.

You can also be old enough to remember Ray in his prime and believe that Curry is better than that version of Ray. On the other hand, it sounds like a lot of the people getting worked up on Ray's behalf haven't seen Curry play since Davidson.

 

[superjohn]

As TZZN noted, if you talk career, Curry has a ways to go. If you talk "when they were in their prime," I can't imagine how anybody thinks this is arguable. Who would take prime Ray over prime Curry? Nobody outside of a few homer-goggles UConn fans and Ray's mother, I suppose. As somebody else noted, that's not an insult.

For me, I never liked the 3 pointer, and I never will. Maybe if it was a 2.5 pointer, I'd like it somewhat. To be able to get 50% more credit for a made basket is an imbalance that skews the game and impels gunner mode. Shooting 33% from 3 is as good as shooting 50% from 2. That's quite a bonus. It also removes about a 3 foot swath of territory inside of the 3 point arc from regular usage inside the game.

3 pointers also skew the value of a guy like Curry vs. a guy like LeBron or Jordan or Oscar. LeBron and Jordan and Oscar are great talents, physical specimens, wonderful basketball players with complete games who could/can dominate inside and out, offense and defense. Those three could have excelled at any major sport, based on physical gifts alone. Curry, quite the contrary, is a guy who has mastered a single shot, and because he gets 50% more credit for making that single shot, opponents are forced to over-guard the shot, thereby opening up other facets of the game that would not exist for him if the extra credit wasn't given. Kudos to him for using his strengths to master the system.

This is silly, you are way underselling Curry.

 

[UConnLen]

Already one of the best offensive rebounders ever, Drummond could cement himself as the best rebounder ever when all is said and done. To be able to say that we have the greatest 3 point shooter of all time and the greatest rebounder of all time as alumni would be so cool. This probably doesn't need its own thread, but I just got happy knowing that our NBA presence is in good hands as long as Drummond is around.

I love AD's game and he will only get better because he is still young. BUT there's a guy named Wilt who played years ago to name one. I think he had some unreal scoring and rebounding stats if you check. That being said, both Ray and Andre are great ambassadors for UConn basketball.

http://espn.go.com/nba/history/leaders/_/stat/rebounds

 

[TasteofUConn]

That's a bit unfair to Curry who is an outstanding all-around offensive player, gifted passer, and superior ball-handler.

No doubt it's unfair, but it's unfair because I'm hypothesizing a different game, not because it's not true.
In other words, with the 3 point shot in place, Jordan is the best ever, James is a top 5 great player, Oscar Robertson is a top 10 great with one of the most all around complete games, and Curry is the greatest shooter of all time and a top 20 player.
Without the 3 point shot in place, Jordan is the best ever, James is a top 5 great player, Oscar Robertson is a top 10 great with one of the most all around complete games, and Curry is a heck of a player who sure could shoot the long ball and, assuming further success, will knock on the door to top 50 all time.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Curry is a heck of a player who sure could shoot the long ball and, assuming further success, will knock on the door to top 50 all time.

If I apply my own, uninformed conclusion to a hypothetical game that doesn't exist, I am correct.

 

[auror]

No doubt it's unfair, but it's unfair because I'm hypothesizing a different game, not because it's not true.
In other words, with the 3 point shot in place, Jordan is the best ever, James is a top 5 great player, Oscar Robertson is a top 10 great with one of the most all around complete games, and Curry is the greatest shooter of all time and a top 20 player.
Without the 3 point shot in place, Jordan is the best ever, James is a top 5 great player, Oscar Robertson is a top 10 great with one of the most all around complete games, and Curry is a heck of a player who sure could shoot the long ball and, assuming further success, will knock on the door to top 50 all time.

You're not being excessively unreasonable, but just watch this and notice how few of the plays are 3 pointers:

 

[BlueMAB]

If I apply my own, uninformed conclusion to a hypothetical game that doesn't exist, I am correct.

Someone should tell him we're talking about Steph Curry, not Dell Curry. He can't claim to have ever seen Steph play and argue that the only reason he's good is the three point shot. He has arguably the best handle in the league and is one of the best passers.

He does all he does without the physical gifts of a Jordan, Lebron, or Big O. And he's a guy that went to a mid-major, he's worked his way into the conversation of the best on earth. saying he wouldn't be worthy without the three point line is moronic.

 

[Uconn77Duke74]

Brimah scored 40 in a game last year, I suppose anything is possible!

 

[IMind]

Steph Curry had an absurd year last year... shooting percentage wise... and is having an even more absurd year this year... but statistically speaking Ray Allen at the same age wasn't that far behind. Ray was REALLY REALLY good.

Steph gets the edge... but it's not as far apart as some in this thread would lead you to believe. The big difference between Steph and Ray isn't the shooting.. it's the assists. It's astounding he's scoring and shooting that well AND averaging nearly 8 assists a game.

And in Ray Allen's best season the edge is even less... basically 1 made 3 pointer a game less than Curry... it's not a huge margin.

Actually after going back over the numbers... I've been reminded just how exceptional Ray was... I thought the gap would have been bigger.

It's not insane to hold the belief that Ray Allen was better than Curry, you're wrong, but it's not insane. In 5 years, heck in a year? It probably will be..

 

[Huskyforlife]

When did we start appointing goat over 2 seasons? Curry is amazing and truely great shooter. But Ray did what he did over 19 seasons I believe. Another thing is how their offenses are ran. Curry is givin the ball half the time and told to do whatever he wants with it, which leads to more attempts. Ray played in an offense ran through him and rashard Lewis for years, and the rest of the time wasn't the top option on the bucks or Celtics and didn't get a chance to create for himself a ton since his supersonics days. Ray is the goat because of his CAREER, his record only helps support his argument. And yes I have watched curry play many times, he's incredibly fun to watch, but let's him play much longer before we anoint him the goat.

 

[aceboon]

When did we start appointing goat over 2 seasons? Curry is amazing and truely great shooter. But Ray did what he did over 19 seasons I believe. Another thing is how their offenses are ran. Curry is givin the ball half the time and told to do whatever he wants with it, which leads to more attempts. Ray played in an offense ran through him and rashard Lewis for years, and the rest of the time wasn't the top option on the bucks or Celtics and didn't get a chance to create for himself a ton since his supersonics days. Ray is the goat because of his CAREER, his record only helps support his argument. And yes I have watched curry play many times, he's incredibly fun to watch, but let's him play much longer before we anoint him the goat.

Why are you trying to school us on Ray's career like you were old enough to have seen most of it? Ray was actually a much bigger offensive option on the Bucks and Sonics than you seem to believe. Not really sure where you're getting 2 seasons from on Steph, you might need to recalibrate your settings.

 

[Huskyforlife]

Why are you trying to school us on Ray's career like you were old enough to have seen most of it? Ray was actually a much bigger offensive option on the Bucks and Sonics than you seem to believe. Not really sure where you're getting 2 seasons from on Steph, you might need to recalibrate your settings.

What part of top option on the sonics did you not understand, do you actually think Ray was given the keys to do whatever he wanted with the ball in his hands nearly as much as steph? And everyone is saying steph is the goat because of those 2 record seasons, and a bunch of projections that could mean nothing.

 

[Gurleyman]

Before Curry, if you hooked me up to a lie detector, I honestly think the best shooter I ever saw was Drazen Petrovic. Sadly, he didn't get to enter the conversation.

 

[aceboon]

What part of top option on the sonics did you not understand, do you actually think Ray was given the keys to do whatever he wanted with the ball in his hands nearly as much as steph? And everyone is saying steph is the goat because of those 2 record seasons, and a bunch of projections that could mean nothing.

How could I have an issue understanding something you didn't say, and again why are you fronting like you saw any of Ray's early career? Steph has led the NBA in 3s made the last 3 seasons, and is on his way to a 4th. His first 2 years when he was healthy aren't exactly too shabby either, top 10 in 3s made.

 

[BlueMAB]

What part of top option on the sonics did you not understand, do you actually think Ray was given the keys to do whatever he wanted with the ball in his hands nearly as much as steph? And everyone is saying steph is the goat because of those 2 record seasons, and a bunch of projections that could mean nothing.

If Ray was as good a passer, and had the handle that Steph has, he would have been given the keys to do whatever he wanted with the ball in his hands.

He wasn't, and didn't, so he played off the ball.

If we're talking strictly three pointers, Ray's longevity will keep him in the conversation for greatest shooter of all time for a lifetime or more. If you ask every GM in the game if they'd draft Steph Curry or Ray Allen, I don't think many would pick Ray. This isn't an insult to Ray, and it sucks that his injuries took away a lot of his explosiveness. But even before the injuries, he wasn't as dynamic a player as Curry. (fyi, dynamic =/= athletic)

 

[auror]

Another thing is how their offenses are ran. Curry is givin the ball half the time and told to do whatever he wants with it, which leads to more attempts.

You realize that shooting off the dribble in the half court is actually much harder than spotting up off the ball, right? You're usually guarded much closer. And that Curry has a much higher career shooting percentage than Allen despite that?

From June 2015 Goldsberry Grantland article:

Curry is the patent-holder of the unassisted triple. Nobody on earth can self-generate beyond the arc like he can. This season, the Denver Nuggets ranked 11th in the NBA with 106 unassisted 3s. Curry had 118 by himself.

NBA players convert 35 percent of their 3-point shots, but while catch-and-shoot attempts go in 37 percent of the time, off-the-dribble 3s go in just 32 percent of the time.

...

Curry is far and away the best off-the-dribble long-range shooter the NBA has ever seen. Not only does he lead the league in made off-the-dribble 3s, but out of 11 guys who attempted at least 150 of those shots, he’s the most accurate.

Most Made Off-the-Dribble 3-Pointers in 2014-15
1. Stephen Curry, 147 (43 percent)
2. James Harden, 110 (36 percent)
3. Damian Lillard, 103 (33 percent)
4. Chris Paul, 90 (40 percent)
5. Lou Williams, 88 (31 percent)

You’ll notice that Curry ranks first in both volume and efficiency.

....

Even if you can get a hand in his face, Curry is the best in-traffic jump-shooter in the NBA ... NBA shooters make less than 30 percent of their 3s when a defender is right up on them, but they make 44 percent when the closest defender is 12 feet away. Curry makes 44 percent of his contested 3s. Let me make this totally clear: Curry is as good with a guy in his face as the average NBA shooter is when wide open.

 

[Hoophound]

If Ray was as good a passer, and had the handle that Steph has, he would have been given the keys to do whatever he wanted with the ball in his hands. He wasn't, and didn't, so he played off the ball. If we're talking strictly three pointers, Ray's longevity will keep him in the conversation for greatest shooter of all time for a lifetime or more. If you ask every GM in the game if they'd draft Steph Curry or Ray Allen, I don't think many would pick Ray. This isn't an insult to Ray, and it sucks that his injuries took away a lot of his explosiveness. But even before the injuries, he wasn't as dynamic a player as Curry. (fyi, dynamic =/= athletic)

Ray did play that role in Seattle and Milwaukee. Ray was better than some of you guys seem to realize. The Ray of the last 10 years is like the old Ray with a broken leg. When his ability severely declined he still hit huge shots in huge games including one of the biggest and most difficult shots in NBA Finals history. That still doesn't change the fact that Curry is better.

Frankly, in his short time in the league Curry is better than only a few to ever play the game. However, longevity matters in the historic context. One bad fall or twist of the knee and it is over. You can't be the greatest if you don't do it for a considerable length of time because you need to win titles and set records to get there. Curry is on pace, but Tiger Woods was on pace too. It just isn't that simple.

 

[Gurleyman]

You realize that shooting off the dribble in the half court is actually much harder than spotting up off the ball, right? You're usually guarded much closer. And that Curry has a much higher career shooting percentage than Allen despite that? From June 2015 Goldsberry Grantland article:

I'm in full agreement that Curry has taken the best ever mantle when it comes to shooting.

At almost no point in Ray's career was he just a spot up shooter, though. If Ray stood still and spotted up, he'd never get any shots, since his defender would never leave him. He had to work to get open - on or off the ball - and took a lot of quick-trigger, high-degree-of-difficulty shots from three. But Curry's success in high degree of difficulty shots takes a back seat to nobody who's ever played.

 

[Joobie]

I'm in full agreement that Curry has taken the best ever mantle when it comes to shooting.

At almost no point in Ray's career was he just a spot up shooter, though. If Ray stood still and spotted up, he'd never get any shots, since his defender would never leave him. He had to work to get open - on or off the ball - and took a lot of quick-trigger, high-degree-of-difficulty shots from three. But Curry's success in high degree of difficulty shots takes a back seat to nobody who's ever played.

That's a great point Gurleyman. My favorite games were the ones where I got to watch Ray & Rip chase each other around the court. Those were the days!