Ray Allen and Andre Drummond

[Paesano]

Speaking of annoying, how about supposed UConn fans that think they always have to set other UConn fans straight about how mediocre our players, coaches and program are.

Longevity matters. If someone shot threes at 80% for one season and then had a major injury, would he be the greatest ever? If I played one game in the NBA, took one shot and it was the toughest three point shot ever to win the game and it was a deciding NBA finals game 7, would I be the greatest ever. Time and volume matter too.

 

[aceboon]

Speaking of annoying, how about supposed UConn fans that think they always have to set other UConn fans straight about how mediocre our players, coaches and program are.

Longevity matters. If someone shot threes at 80% for one season and then had a major injury, would he be the greatest ever? If I played one game in the NBA, took one shot and it was the toughest three point shot ever to win the game and it was a deciding NBA finals game 7, would I be the greatest ever. Time and volume matter too.

None of your scenarios are at play here so I don't really understand the relevance here. I don't get bending over backwards to to try to deny what those who watch the NBA on a regular basis already know.

 

[Paesano]

None of your scenarios are at play here so I don't really understand the relevance here. I don't get bending over backwards to to try to deny what those who watch the NBA on a regular basis already know.

You mean, what they THINK they know.

How about this. Why not let "uconn fanboys" believe Ray is the greatest if they want? First, this is a UConn board so why is it such a shock that it is full of FANatical UConn fanboys? Second, why should the NBA TV watchers care?

 

[FartMan69]

Records and longevity shouldn't apply in this conversation because the argument isn't who did it longest but who did it better. If you've seen Steph Curry in the last 2 seasons it's not even close. The guy is a Wizard, pretty sure Davidson was a front for Hogwarts.

 

[FartMan69]

You mean, what they THINK they know.

How about this. Why not let "uconn fanboys" believe Ray is the greatest if they want? First, this is a UConn board so why is it such a shock that it is full of FANatical UConn fanboys? Second, why should the NBA TV watchers care?

You can believe what you want it's a great country that allows such but you're just terribly wrong.

 

[Scoe]

Ray is a lock for the HOF whats wrong with that, Curry is already a lock as well.

 

[aceboon]

You mean, what they THINK they know.

How about this. Why not let "uconn fanboys" believe Ray is the greatest if they want? First, this is a UConn board so why is it such a shock that it is full of FANatical UConn fanboys? Second, why should the NBA TV watchers care?

My fault, I figured most of us were adults on here, didn't realize you weren't a man of a certain age. Your arguments sound like when me and my friends used to argue about pro wrestlers when we were kids, I'll leave you and your half-baked hypotheticals alone.

 

[champs99and04]

Speaking of annoying, how about supposed UConn fans that think they always have to set other UConn fans straight about how mediocre our players, coaches and program are.

Longevity matters. If someone shot threes at 80% for one season and then had a major injury, would he be the greatest ever? If I played one game in the NBA, took one shot and it was the toughest three point shot ever to win the game and it was a deciding NBA finals game 7, would I be the greatest ever. Time and volume matter too.

Right, because clearly the moral of the thread is that Ray is mediocre.

 

[MexicoHusky]

Curry is a better shooter than Ray. I'll buy that all day. No problem. Curry will have a career as long as ray...that is a stretch for me. Ray isn't just some run of the mill nba player who keeps in shape. As far as physical fitness finatics he's #1. And he's probably top 5 in the history of sports. He actually has a diagnosable psychological obsessive disorder. One of the ways his disorder manifests is his obcession with order, cleanliness, routines, patterns, etc... staying physically fit seems to be part of his "problem". So i doubt Curry will have the same drive to stay fit and prepared to be an nba player. I don't know Curry's back story that well, but i suspect he'll slow down when he gets to his mid 30s. Ray doesnt seem to be able to.

 

[Edward Sargent]

the greatest 3point shooter claim is already being taken over

A lot can happen in a career. Pete Maravich was the greatest of all time, unfortunately he only had three chambers in his heart!

 

[UConn990411]

You mean, what they THINK they know.

How about this. Why not let "uconn fanboys" believe Ray is the greatest if they want? First, this is a UConn board so why is it such a shock that it is full of FANatical UConn fanboys? Second, why should the NBA TV watchers care?

Maybe you and other UConn fanboys shouldn't act like it's an insult to say Curry's the better shooter.

Ray is - and always will be - one of the greatest shooters ever and clutchest players in the history of the sport. Acknowledging Curry's greatness doesn't change that.

 

[tzznandrew]

Just want you to name all the bigs who would stop him? I mean there's a couple but there was also a couple a lot better than you are giving credit to in his era who were not 6'5-6'8. You're underestimating the talent he was no doubt and overestimating what the NBA throws out there in the middle these days.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/438984-wilt-chamberlain-did-he-really-play-in-weak-era

Average height of NBA centers during Wilt's career 6'10". The guy was 7'1" and had a 50plus vertical and could throw weights around with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Really, he couldn't get 30 and 20 at least? He'd still throw a 60 and 30 out there.

Wilt was awesome. Dude would still score as much as he did (well...not the 50ppg over a season, but high 20s to low 30s).

The rebounds are tougher. There were about 10-15 more field goal attempts per team (so 20-30 more potential rebounds) in the 60s and early 70s. That matters.

 

[UConnSwag11]

Ray better player and Curry better shooter?

 

[UConn990411]

Ray better player and Curry better shooter?

No. Curry's gets the nod for both.

 

[tzznandrew]

At their peak, Curry > Allen.
As shooters, Curry > Allen.
For a full career, at the moment, Allen > Curry, but if Curry stays healthy that will shift very soon.

 

[Paesano]

Amazing how the basketball snobs are just incapable of getting it. Men of a certain age should be able to comprehend the concept of extending the logic of an argument to its extremes and inevitable conclusion. Sure, it involves hypotheticals but the point is to test the logic.

And, it also seems like they also act like mice trapped in a corner by a cat when faced with how horribly wrong they are. I love the strawmen of saying Curry isn't great or that the dissenters act like Ray was insulted. No one said anything like that but it is easier to beat a straw man than a man of a certain age.

Again, someone brought up a great example in Maravich. Let me try putting it another way. When talking about "greatness" it is intellectually dishonest to ignore the "value" of the players being compared. If someone brings great value for many years and someone else brings, say, 25% more value for half as many years, I will give the nod to the former. If I was going to be a team GM for one year, or even a few years, I would go with the latter. I think most people think in terms of total value over an entire career when disscussing "GOATs".

 

[Paesano]

At their peak, Curry > Allen.
As shooters, Curry > Allen.
For a full career, at the moment, Allen > Curry, but if Curry stays healthy that will shift very soon.

Exactly! It is just that simple. Another thing to consider is the value of their leadership, especially at the end of their careers. Ray was supposedly aloof but he was never an energy vampire and definitely lead by example. A VERY good example. We won't really know about Curry's impact on his team until after he retires and former teammates and coaches start talking, or not talking, about his leadership skills.

 

[TasteofUConn]

As TZZN noted, if you talk career, Curry has a ways to go. If you talk "when they were in their prime," I can't imagine how anybody thinks this is arguable. Who would take prime Ray over prime Curry? Nobody outside of a few homer-goggles UConn fans and Ray's mother, I suppose. As somebody else noted, that's not an insult.

For me, I never liked the 3 pointer, and I never will. Maybe if it was a 2.5 pointer, I'd like it somewhat. To be able to get 50% more credit for a made basket is an imbalance that skews the game and impels gunner mode. Shooting 33% from 3 is as good as shooting 50% from 2. That's quite a bonus. It also removes about a 3 foot swath of territory inside of the 3 point arc from regular usage inside the game.

3 pointers also skew the value of a guy like Curry vs. a guy like LeBron or Jordan or Oscar. LeBron and Jordan and Oscar are great talents, physical specimens, wonderful basketball players with complete games who could/can dominate inside and out, offense and defense. Those three could have excelled at any major sport, based on physical gifts alone. Curry, quite the contrary, is a guy who has mastered a single shot, and because he gets 50% more credit for making that single shot, opponents are forced to over-guard the shot, thereby opening up other facets of the game that would not exist for him if the extra credit wasn't given. Kudos to him for using his strengths to master the system.

 

[FartMan69]

Amazing how the basketball snobs are just incapable of getting it. Men of a certain age should be able to comprehend the concept of extending the logic of an argument to its extremes and inevitable conclusion. Sure, it involves hypotheticals but the point is to test the logic.

And, it also seems like they also act like mice trapped in a corner by a cat when faced with how horribly wrong they are. I love the strawmen of saying Curry isn't great or that the dissenters act like Ray was insulted. No one said anything like that but it is easier to beat a straw man than a man of a certain age.

Again, someone brought up a great example in Maravich. Let me try putting it another way. When talking about "greatness" it is intellectually dishonest to ignore the "value" of the players being compared. If someone brings great value for many years and someone else brings, say, 25% more value for half as many years, I will give the nod to the former. If I was going to be a team GM for one year, or even a few years, I would go with the latter. I think most people think in terms of total value over an entire career when disscussing "GOATs".

How does any of this babble have anything to do with who is a better shooter?

 

[Excalibur]

3 pointers also skew the value of a guy like Curry vs. a guy like LeBron or Jordan or Oscar. LeBron and Jordan and Oscar are great talents, physical specimens, wonderful basketball players with complete games who could/can dominate inside and out, offense and defense. Those three could have excelled at any major sport, based on physical gifts alone. Curry, quite the contrary, is a guy who has mastered a single shot, and because he gets 50% more credit for making that single shot, opponents are forced to over-guard the shot, thereby opening up other facets of the game that would not exist for him if the extra credit wasn't given. Kudos to him for using his strengths to master the system.

That's a bit unfair to Curry who is an outstanding all-around offensive player, gifted passer, and superior ball-handler.

I do have a sense that most of the "it's Curry, everyone shut up because I'm not sophisticated enough to argue" crowd is too young to remember Ray before his time with the Celtics, and the state of the NBA game in the late 1990's - early 2000's.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

That's a bit unfair to Curry who is an outstanding all-around offensive player, gifted passer, and superior ball-handler.

It's more than a bit unfair, it completely misrepresents his game. You can't watch Golden State play and say that Curry has mastered a "single skill." With the the exception of when they're playing Cleveland, he's the best player on the court every night.

You can also be old enough to remember Ray in his prime and believe that Curry is better than that version of Ray. On the other hand, it sounds like a lot of the people getting worked up on Ray's behalf haven't seen Curry play since Davidson.

 

[superjohn]

As TZZN noted, if you talk career, Curry has a ways to go. If you talk "when they were in their prime," I can't imagine how anybody thinks this is arguable. Who would take prime Ray over prime Curry? Nobody outside of a few homer-goggles UConn fans and Ray's mother, I suppose. As somebody else noted, that's not an insult.

For me, I never liked the 3 pointer, and I never will. Maybe if it was a 2.5 pointer, I'd like it somewhat. To be able to get 50% more credit for a made basket is an imbalance that skews the game and impels gunner mode. Shooting 33% from 3 is as good as shooting 50% from 2. That's quite a bonus. It also removes about a 3 foot swath of territory inside of the 3 point arc from regular usage inside the game.

3 pointers also skew the value of a guy like Curry vs. a guy like LeBron or Jordan or Oscar. LeBron and Jordan and Oscar are great talents, physical specimens, wonderful basketball players with complete games who could/can dominate inside and out, offense and defense. Those three could have excelled at any major sport, based on physical gifts alone. Curry, quite the contrary, is a guy who has mastered a single shot, and because he gets 50% more credit for making that single shot, opponents are forced to over-guard the shot, thereby opening up other facets of the game that would not exist for him if the extra credit wasn't given. Kudos to him for using his strengths to master the system.

This is silly, you are way underselling Curry.

 

[UConnLen]

Already one of the best offensive rebounders ever, Drummond could cement himself as the best rebounder ever when all is said and done. To be able to say that we have the greatest 3 point shooter of all time and the greatest rebounder of all time as alumni would be so cool. This probably doesn't need its own thread, but I just got happy knowing that our NBA presence is in good hands as long as Drummond is around.

I love AD's game and he will only get better because he is still young. BUT there's a guy named Wilt who played years ago to name one. I think he had some unreal scoring and rebounding stats if you check. That being said, both Ray and Andre are great ambassadors for UConn basketball.

http://espn.go.com/nba/history/leaders/_/stat/rebounds

 

[TasteofUConn]

That's a bit unfair to Curry who is an outstanding all-around offensive player, gifted passer, and superior ball-handler.

No doubt it's unfair, but it's unfair because I'm hypothesizing a different game, not because it's not true.
In other words, with the 3 point shot in place, Jordan is the best ever, James is a top 5 great player, Oscar Robertson is a top 10 great with one of the most all around complete games, and Curry is the greatest shooter of all time and a top 20 player.
Without the 3 point shot in place, Jordan is the best ever, James is a top 5 great player, Oscar Robertson is a top 10 great with one of the most all around complete games, and Curry is a heck of a player who sure could shoot the long ball and, assuming further success, will knock on the door to top 50 all time.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Curry is a heck of a player who sure could shoot the long ball and, assuming further success, will knock on the door to top 50 all time.

If I apply my own, uninformed conclusion to a hypothetical game that doesn't exist, I am correct.