Ray Allen #56 all time in NBA

[Lefty2one]

I'm a fan of analytics, but your point here is right on. You have to watch the games. It gets difficult for games going back too far in the past, but it is absolutely necessary. While analytics definitely brings out things we've missed, it sometimes overstates them. Nobody watching basketball in the 1990s thought Miller was one of the 10-15 best players in the league.

Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Robinson, Olajuwon, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Grant Hill, Payton, Kemp, Ewing--everyone knew these guys were all better. Stockton was, too, but, he didn't have a ton of acclaim. You might throw in Mutombo, too.

When you lived and watched the 90s, you had a sense of who Miller was. A very good player who, when you were watching him, never felt like a Hall of Famer.

Yep, and the irony of Reggie's profile is that although analytics like him, people today hate one-dimensional players like he was. I see a lot of people saying he'd translate to today's league better than any 90s player yet he wasn't a playmaker, rebounder, or defender. Hell, even someone like Mitch Richmond was a better player, he was just stuck in a terrible situation for most of his career. Mitch was a better all-around scorer, and a better passer, rebounder, and defender but he was buried on the west coast on bad teams for his prime, not playing playoff games at The Garden and against MJ or Shaq & Penny.

Much like the 90s Knicks, those Pacers teams weren't sexy on paper but they were really good teams. Reggie's supporting cast was darn good. Reggie didn't "carry" a damn thing. Winning teams were constructed so differently back then: you needed the bruisers and strongmen and rebounders and screeners. Guys like Dale Davis and Charles Oakley probably couldn't play in the league today given their skillset but they were vital pieces to a winning team 25 years ago. Their impact went far behind the box score. Rik Smits gave Ewing fits on plenty of occasions and had some big games in big spots. Mark Jackson was the perfect PG for Reggie. McKey had his moments. Chris Mullen and Jalen Rose later on.

Analytics are great for looking at things from another POV or as you said to point out things we may miss. But I can't stand when people throw out just advanced stats to support a claim about a player, especially when it comes to players from yesteryear.

 

[tzznandrew]

Yep, and the irony of Reggie's profile is that although analytics like him, people today hate one-dimensional players like he was. I see a lot of people saying he'd translate to today's league better than any 90s player yet he wasn't a playmaker, rebounder, or defender. Hell, even someone like Mitch Richmond was a better player, he was just stuck in a terrible situation for most of his career. Mitch was a better all-around scorer, and a better passer, rebounder, and defender but he was buried on the west coast on bad teams for his prime, not playing playoff games at The Garden and against MJ or Shaq & Penny.

Much like the 90s Knicks, those Pacers teams weren't sexy on paper but they were really good teams. Reggie's supporting cast was darn good. Reggie didn't "carry" a damn thing. Winning teams were constructed so differently back then: you needed the bruisers and strongmen and rebounders and screeners. Guys like Dale Davis and Charles Oakley probably couldn't play in the league today given their skillset but they were vital pieces to a winning team 25 years ago. Their impact went far behind the box score. Rik Smits gave Ewing fits on plenty of occasions and had some big games in big spots. Mark Jackson was the perfect PG for Reggie. McKey had his moments. Chris Mullen and Jalen Rose later on.

Analytics are great for looking at things from another POV or as you said to point out things we may miss. But I can't stand when people throw out just advanced stats to support a claim about a player, especially when it comes to players from yesteryear.

All this.

I loved Mitch Richmond. I almost put him above Reggie. There were a number of players who, if you were watching the NBA in the 1990s you thought were better than Reggie. Some of that was lack of understanding of what he could do (and analytics showed us some of that) and some of that was just reality.

I think in 1995, if you asked most people, they'd say Richmond was better.

Reggie: 5x All Star over 18 seasons, 3x All-NBA Third Team
Richmond: 6x All Star over 14 seasons, 3x All-NBA Second Team, 2x All-NBA Third Team

He just dropped off a cliff in the trade to Washington.

 

[Chin Diesel]

All this.

I loved Mitch Richmond. I almost put him above Reggie. There were a number of players who, if you were watching the NBA in the 1990s you thought were better than Reggie. Some of that was lack of understanding of what he could do (and analytics showed us some of that) and some of that was just reality.

I think in 1995, if you asked most people, they'd say Richmond was better.

Reggie: 5x All Star over 18 seasons, 3x All-NBA Third Team
Richmond: 6x All Star over 14 seasons, 3x All-NBA Second Team, 2x All-NBA Third Team

He just dropped off a cliff in the trade to Washington.

Run TMC was fun to watch.

 

[UofCT]

Just another case where analytics/advanced stats aren't the be all, end all.

He was a one-dimensional player who wasn't great at creating his own shot. He never averaged more than four assists or four rebounds in a season, yet he finished in the Top 10 in PPG only once in his career so it's not like he was some elite scorer despite giving you little else. He was a subpar defender. He only made the All-Star team--a pretty easy feat--five times in his 18-year career, despite his reputation and popularity. His peak when Indiana was good--'93-'94 through their Finals season in '99'-00--was an unimpressive 20/3/3.

Then there's his clutch reputation. He had his big moments, no denying it, but no one brings up his failures in big spots--in part because everyone knew he wasn't really that good and didn't have high expectations for him. He wasn't held to the same standards as the greats of his day.

1994: Game 7 ECF vs the Knicks. Trailing by one with :06 left, airballs the potential game-winning 18-footer, then commits a dumb, although controversial flagrant foul, sealing the win for the Knicks.

1995: Pacers lose Game 7 to Orlando by 24 points. Registers 12/4/0 on 5/13 shooting.

1998: The famous seven-game ECF vs Chicago. A huge Game 6 from Rik Smits saves the Pacers from Reggie's 2/13, 8/2/0 performance.

1999: #2 seeded Pacers lose to the #8 seed Knicks in the ECF, getting eliminated in a game where Reggie shot 3/18 from the field and scored 6 points. Any other star would get murdered for something like this and I have never once heard it mentioned when discussing Reggie's legacy. Something like John Starks' 2/18 game vs HOU in the '94 Finals is mentioned all the time, but Reggie is above criticism.

This dude had a documentary made after him titled "Winning Time" about his rivalry with the Knicks even though he went 3-2 against them in the playoffs in the 90s lol.

He was a pretty good #2 who was on a perfectly built team to highlight his strengths. He was great at one thing, shooting-especially off screens--and that Pacers team with the Davis boys and Smits were ideal bruisers to help get Reggie the shots he needed. He made big shots, which people loved, and his antics were entertaining, but people looked the other way or shrugged it off when he laid an egg.

Hakeem is the only other player I've seen who is/was so free from criticism but at least Hakeem was a true all-time great.

Your post is actually insane, here is why.

1) Reggie is a one dimensional player? He is the Pacers all time leader in Points, Games, Field Goals, Free Throws, Three Pointers, Assists, Steals, turnovers , offensive ratings, offensive win shares, defensive win shares, and value over replacement player. He's the best player in franchise history and led the Pacers to the playoffs 14 times in his 18 year career. The pacers had ZERO hall of fame players on the team during his tenure. ZERO. ZERO. Chris Mullin okay okay but he was ready to retire. ZERO.

2) 1994: Game 7 ECF vs the Knicks. Reggie led a team with ZERO all stars to the Eastern Conference Finals. Knicks had 3 all stars and Pacers had ZERO. In 1994 Reggie averaged 20 PPG but he plays in Indiana. For reference, the other three conference finalists had a combined SIX all stars and Pacers had ZERO

3) 1995: Pacers lose Game 7 to Orlando by 24 points. Reggie led a team as the only all star to the Eastern Conference Finals. We are talking about back to back ECF appearances for Reggie with no other all stars? When was the last time that happened in NBA history?

4) 1998: The famous seven-game ECF vs Chicago. A huge Game 6 from Rik Smits saves the Pacers from Reggie's 2/13, 8/2/0 performance. This is hilarious. How about Reggie hitting the game winner in game 4? How about Reggie playing against a team with three hall of fame players and reggie playing with ZERO yet he takes them to the brink? This is a LAZY take by you.

5) 1999: #2 seeded Pacers lose to the #8 seed Knicks in the ECF, getting eliminated in a game where Reggie shot 3/18 from the field and scored 6 points. #8 seed Knicks who knocked off the #1 seed Heat as well. No doubt this was disappointing but the 4-point play was not a foul by any stretch. Lost opportunity for Reggie Miller.

WHY DID YOU STOP IN 1999

He made the FINALS in 2000 and gave the Kobe/Shaq Lakers the best NBA Finals fight they had in their tenure. He beat the RAY ALLEN BUCKS in GAME 5 by OUT DUELING RAY ALLEN SCORING 40+ points. That didn't fit your little list?

Reggie also made the playoffs in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005 to end his career

 

[Hoophound]

Reggie was pretty darn good. He wasn’t on the Hakeem/Barkley/Bird/Magic level, but he was just a step down in perception. He was a marquee player in the league.

 

[Scoe]

Reggie was great but Ray was greater.

 

[superjohn]

Your post is actually insane, here is why.

1) Reggie is a one dimensional player? He is the Pacers all time leader in Points, Games, Field Goals, Free Throws, Three Pointers, Assists, Steals, turnovers , offensive ratings, offensive win shares, defensive win shares, and value over replacement player. He's the best player in franchise history and led the Pacers to the playoffs 14 times in his 18 year career. The pacers had ZERO hall of fame players on the team during his tenure. ZERO. ZERO. Chris Mullin okay okay but he was ready to retire. ZERO.

2) 1994: Game 7 ECF vs the Knicks. Reggie led a team with ZERO all stars to the Eastern Conference Finals. Knicks had 3 all stars and Pacers had ZERO. In 1994 Reggie averaged 20 PPG but he plays in Indiana. For reference, the other three conference finalists had a combined SIX all stars and Pacers had ZERO

3) 1995: Pacers lose Game 7 to Orlando by 24 points. Reggie led a team as the only all star to the Eastern Conference Finals. We are talking about back to back ECF appearances for Reggie with no other all stars? When was the last time that happened in NBA history?

4) 1998: The famous seven-game ECF vs Chicago. A huge Game 6 from Rik Smits saves the Pacers from Reggie's 2/13, 8/2/0 performance. This is hilarious. How about Reggie hitting the game winner in game 4? How about Reggie playing against a team with three hall of fame players and reggie playing with ZERO yet he takes them to the brink? This is a LAZY take by you.

5) 1999: #2 seeded Pacers lose to the #8 seed Knicks in the ECF, getting eliminated in a game where Reggie shot 3/18 from the field and scored 6 points. #8 seed Knicks who knocked off the #1 seed Heat as well. No doubt this was disappointing but the 4-point play was not a foul by any stretch. Lost opportunity for Reggie Miller.

WHY DID YOU STOP IN 1999

He made the FINALS in 2000 and gave the Kobe/Shaq Lakers the best NBA Finals fight they had in their tenure. He beat the RAY ALLEN BUCKS in GAME 5 by OUT DUELING RAY ALLEN SCORING 40+ points. That didn't fit your little list?

Reggie also made the playoffs in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005 to end his career

Off the top of my head Dirk went to 2 nba finals without another all-star and so did Kidd.

 

[tzznandrew]

Off the top of my head Dirk went to 2 nba finals without another all-star and so did Kidd.

Olajuwon won a title without another all star in 1994. And he fought his way out of the West that even then was much tougher than the East.

 

[UofCT]

Olajuwon won a title without another all star in 1994. And he fought his way out of the West that even then was much tougher than the East.

Great company for Reggie to be in!

 

[tzznandrew]

He made the FINALS in 2000 and gave the Kobe/Shaq Lakers the best NBA Finals fight they had in their tenure. He beat the RAY ALLEN BUCKS in GAME 5 by OUT DUELING RAY ALLEN SCORING 40+ points. That didn't fit your little list?

Reggie also made the playoffs in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005 to end his career

The team that gave the Lakers their best fight was the Pistons, who beat them.

Am I supposed to be impressed that the 1-seed Pacers beat the 8-seed Bucks in 5 games? Why would I be impressed by ECF appearances when the east was horrible?

The Pacers were a very good team throughout the 1990s and early 2000 (though by the late runs Miller was the 3rd best player or so on that team). Miller was the best player on that team and a deserving HOFer.

Having lived through it and watched him, I liked him. But as someone who has watched both his career and Ray Allen's career, I think Allen was better.

 

[UofCT]

Off the top of my head Dirk went to 2 nba finals without another all-star and so did Kidd.

Dirk went to one NBA finals without another all star (2006)

 

[UofCT]

The team that gave the Lakers their best fight was the Pistons, who beat them.

Am I supposed to be impressed that the 1-seed Pacers beat the 8-seed Bucks in 5 games? Why would I be impressed by ECF appearances when the east was horrible?

The Pacers were a very good team throughout the 1990s and early 2000 (though by the late runs Miller was the 3rd best player or so on that team). Miller was the best player on that team and a deserving HOFer.

Having lived through it and watched him, I liked him. But as someone who has watched both his career and Ray Allen's career, I think Allen was better.

Yes you are supposed to be impressed.

 

[superjohn]

Dirk went to one NBA finals without another all star (2006)

Who was the other all-star?

 

[Lefty2one]

1) Reggie is a one dimensional player? He is the Pacers all time leader in Points, Games, Field Goals, Free Throws, Three Pointers, Assists, Steals, turnovers , offensive ratings, offensive win shares, defensive win shares, and value over replacement player. He's the best player in franchise history and led the Pacers to the playoffs 14 times in his 18 year career. The pacers had ZERO hall of fame players on the team during his tenure. ZERO. ZERO. Chris Mullin okay okay but he was ready to retire. ZERO.

He played 18 years for one team. He damn well better be the all-time leader in all those categories considering he played 522 more games for Indiana than anyone else did. He was close to playing twice as many games in a Pacer uniform as the next guy. He averaged three assists a game and is their all-time assist leader lol. He gets credit for longevity I guess? He's a compiler.

2) 1994: Game 7 ECF vs the Knicks. Reggie led a team with ZERO all stars to the Eastern Conference Finals. Knicks had 3 all stars and Pacers had ZERO. In 1994 Reggie averaged 20 PPG but he plays in Indiana. For reference, the other three conference finalists had a combined SIX all stars and Pacers had ZERO.

1) This is exactly my point. He misses a big shot and here come the excuses. What does his supporting cast have to do with him airballing arguably the biggest shot of his career? My point is that he never caught flak for coming up short. It was a standard Reggie play--a pindown leading to an open 18 footer and he didn't even draw iron.

2) It was a fluke year for Starks and Oakley making the ASG. Neither guy ever made another All-Star team. It was a situation where it was a "team" honor, like the Hawks sending their whole starting line up 5-6 years ago. Patrick Ewing's legacy is all about how the Knicks never gave him enough supporting talent, don't try to fluff up his supporting cast because of this one season. These were the only two All-Stars seasons Ewing got from teammates during his entire Knicks career. He never had a HOF teammate either. Also, the fact that John Starks made an All-Star team over Reggie in an MJ-less East says a lot about Reggie.

3) This goes to my other post/point that those Pacers teams were really good despite not being sexy. What do people remember about the '95 ECSF? Reggie's 8 points in 8.9 seconds in Game 1. What do people not remember? That Rik Smits completely played Ewing that series and was the biggest reason the Pacers advanced. Smits and Miller both averaged 22.6 that series. Sure, he didn't make the All-Star team, but he was lethal in that series and in other big spots.

3) 1995: Pacers lose Game 7 to Orlando by 24 points. Reggie led a team as the only all star to the Eastern Conference Finals. We are talking about back to back ECF appearances for Reggie with no other all stars? When was the last time that happened in NBA history?

Again, this is easy to follow: if your best player only averages 19.6/2.6/3.0 you NEED a really good supporting cast to go far in the playoffs. That's what Reggie averaged in '94-'95. You simply cannot make back to back conference finals if your best player only gives you that, not unless the supporting cast is a lot better than you're giving them credit for. We're not talking about some monster statistical output like we saw from LeBron when his supporting cast sucked. Reggie put up pedestrian numbers. I don't care how many of his teammates made the all-star team, it doesn't matter. Those Pacers teams were far greater than the sum of their parts. He also had two fantastic coaches in Larry Brown and Larry Bird.

4) 1998: The famous seven-game ECF vs Chicago. A huge Game 6 from Rik Smits saves the Pacers from Reggie's 2/13, 8/2/0 performance. This is hilarious. How about Reggie hitting the game winner in game 4? How about Reggie playing against a team with three hall of fame players and reggie playing with ZERO yet he takes them to the brink? This is a LAZY take by you.

It's not lazy, hell it's not even a take. It's just another example of no one criticizing Reggie. He was like the little brother punching above his weight. No one batted an eye when he underperformed.

He made the FINALS in 2000 and gave the Kobe/Shaq Lakers the best NBA Finals fight they had in their tenure. He beat the RAY ALLEN BUCKS in GAME 5 by OUT DUELING RAY ALLEN SCORING 40+ points. That didn't fit your little list?

Because I said it was a list of his shortcomings that no one mentions? That part was clear.

 

[Lefty2one]

Ben Wallace followed by Jason Kidd is the answer for the most recent back-to-backs to reach the Conf Finals without an All-Star teammate, I think, though both reached the Finals (and Wallace won one).

Just going back to Reggie's era, since that's what we're discussing, these players won the championship without another All-Star that season.

• 2016 Cleveland Cavaliers — Lebron James
• 2014 San Antonio Spurs — Tony Parker
• 2011 Dallas Mavericks — Dirk Nowitzki
• 2004 Detroit Pistons — Ben Wallace
• 2003 San Antonio Spurs — Tim Duncan
• 1998 Chicago Bulls — Michael Jordan
• 1994 and 1995 Houston Rockets — Hakeem Olajuwon

Players who reached the Finals with no All-Star teammates and lost.

• 2009 Orlando Magic - Dwight Howard
• 2008 Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe Bryant
• 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers - LeBron James
• 2006 Dallas Mavericks - Dirk Nowitzki
• 2005 Detroit Pistons - Ben Wallace
• 2002 and 2003 New Jersey Nets - Jason Kidd
• There was no ASG in 1999 but it's safe to say no New York Knick would have made it, let alone multiple.

 

[Scoe]

Ben Wallace followed by Jason Kidd is the answer for the most recent back-to-backs to reach the Conf Finals without an All-Star teammate, I think, though both reached the Finals (and Wallace won one).

Just going back to Reggie's era, since that's what we're discussing, these players won the championship without another All-Star that season.

• 2016 Cleveland Cavaliers — Lebron James
• 2014 San Antonio Spurs — Tony Parker
• 2011 Dallas Mavericks — Dirk Nowitzki
• 2004 Detroit Pistons — Ben Wallace
• 2003 San Antonio Spurs — Tim Duncan
• 1998 Chicago Bulls — Michael Jordan
• 1994 and 1995 Houston Rockets — Hakeem Olajuwon

Players who reached the Finals with no All-Star teammates and lost.

• 2009 Orlando Magic - Dwight Howard
• 2008 Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe Bryant
• 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers - LeBron James
• 2006 Dallas Mavericks - Dirk Nowitzki
• 2005 Detroit Pistons - Ben Wallace
• 2002 and 2003 New Jersey Nets - Jason Kidd
• There was no ASG in 1999 but it's safe to say no New York Knick would have made it, let alone multiple.

Not to many people look at it that way the majority of those guys had allstars on their teams who happened to not be on the all-star teams that particular year.

1995-Rockets had Drexler, he made an all-star game in 96 and 97
1998-Pippen didnt play till February
2003-Duncan had an older Robinson and a young Parker and Ginobili
2004-Pistons did not have any superstar players on their team like the Lakers had with Shaq and Kobe they did have 4 all-star level guys in the perfect roles in Sheed, Rip, Billups and Tashaun Prince was the perfect glue guy to that team.
2014- Duncan had a better season that year then the year after where he was an all-star.
2016-Kyrie was coming off an injury the previous year.

1999- Knicks had Houston and Sprewell who were both at all-star level.
2008- For some reason Gasol was not an all-star despite averaging the same numbers the following seasons, sure being on Memphis had something to do with it.
2009- Jameer Nelson was actually an all-star in 2009 so you are factually wrong there.

 

[Lefty2one]

I was just pointing out what we were discussing. There were obviously all-star caliber players on those teams.

The following players made All-Star teams as Reggie's teammates...

Detlef Schrempf
Rik Smits
Dale Davis
Jermaine O'Neal
Brad Miller
Ron Artest

Not a terrible list for a guy who many claim had no help.

 

[tzznandrew]

Going off only stats and not having watched the games is like trying to translate poetry from a language you only know from a dictionary.

 

[UofCT]

I was just pointing out what we were discussing. There were obviously all-star caliber players on those teams.

The following players made All-Star teams as Reggie's teammates...

Detlef Schrempf
Rik Smits
Dale Davis
Jermaine O'Neal
Brad Miller
Ron Artest

Not a terrible list for a guy who many claim had no help.

@Lefty2one you said this earlier today "It was a fluke year for Starks and Oakley making the ASG. Neither guy ever made another All-Star team."

Why is it that its a fluke for Starks and Oakley but not for the Pacers all stars who only made one ASG?

Schrempf - Made one all star game while in Indiana (1993)
Rik Smits - Made one all star game (1998)
Dale Davis - Made one all star game (2000)
Brad Miller - Made one all star game while in Indiana (2003)
Ron Artest - Made one all star game while in Indiana (2004)

In Reggie Millers 18 year career he had ONE player make multiple all star games and that is Jermaine O'Neal (2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005).