Ray Allen #56 all time in NBA

[Peacefrog]

Ranking the top 74 NBA players of all time: Nos. 74-41

With the NBA's 74th season on hold, we ranked the top 74 players of all time, with one "Last Dance" Bull making an appearance in today's selections.

www.espn.com

One spot ahead of Drexler and one spot behind Vince Carter.

 

[uchusky32]

Yea, not happy with Vince and Tracy being rsnk better.

 

[superjohn]

Ranking the top 74 NBA players of all time: Nos. 74-41

With the NBA's 74th season on hold, we ranked the top 74 players of all time, with one "Last Dance" Bull making an appearance in today's selections.

www.espn.com

One spot ahead of Drexler and one spot behind Vince Carter.

I love Ray but there's no way he's better than Drexler...neither is Reggie Miller, TMac, or Westbrook. Cr@p list.

 

[tzznandrew]

Ray is better and more accomplished than a number of those ranked ahead of him. I'm not so much upset about TMac (because Prime TMac was better than Prime Ray), and I guess not Westbrook (who has an MVP), but I am annoyed about Reggie and Vince (and a few others)

Vince played 22 years in the league and never even played in an NBA Finals. There's a reason for that. The only thing Vince has on Ray is longevity and, frankly, if Ray wanted to be a bum into his mid-40s he could have been because his shooting would have still allowed him to give any team 10-15 min. Ray has as many All-NBA teams, more All Star appearances, and more titles. He just has fewer points and he didn't dunk over a giant dork once.

 

[Lefty2one]

As usual Reggie Miller is ranked way too high. Dude is easily the most overrated player of the last 40 years. A couple of big moments against the Knicks and he became a media darling. No one ever brings up his flaws and shortcomings.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

That list is pretty bad.

 

[BlueMAB]

Vince played 22 years in the league and never even played in an NBA Finals.

Playing devil's advocate here....
Steve Kerr has 5 rings as a player, and the best overall 3P shooting percentage in the history of the NBA.

Does that make him better than Ray Allen?

Hate Vince all you want (I don't know where I would rank him,) but using team accomplishments to rank players is a bad idea IMO.

 

[auror]

As usual Reggie Miller is ranked way too high. Dude is easily the most overrated player of the last 40 years. A couple of big moments against the Knicks and he became a media darling. No one ever brings up his flaws and shortcomings.

Win shares loves him. 11 straight top 10 NBA offensive win share seasons. He's top 10 all time in NBA win shares. 15 straight seasons with a true shooting % in the top 10 of the NBA.

If anything, the players and media of the time underrated him because they didn't know what a good shot was.

 

[tzznandrew]

Playing devil's advocate here....
Steve Kerr has 5 rings as a player, and the best overall 3P shooting percentage in the history of the NBA.

Does that make him better than Ray Allen?

Hate Vince all you want (I don't know where I would rank him,) but using team accomplishments to rank players is a bad idea IMO.

Players like Steve Kerr, Robert Horry, and a host of other players have rings, or were good shooters in low pressure situations. Allen and Carter were tasked with leading teams. Different calculus.

I mean, it's really hard to win, let alone get to a Finals, but find me a team that Carter went to that was a better team when he got there. Ray made Seattle, Boston, and Miami all better.

I don't knock Baylor, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, etc for. not winning a title. But they got there. Some get there later by catching up with teams looking for veterans.

Neither Carter nor Allen could be the best player on a championship team. But if you're drafting a player, you have to pick someone like Ray first: he never forced himself out of a situation, he was willing to sacrifice for the greater good, and other than counting numbers (like total points) he performed as well and often better than Carter, and did so on better teams at higher levels. Allen was robbed of the 2008 NBA Finals MVP.

 

[tzznandrew]

Win shares loves him. 11 straight top 10 NBA offensive win share seasons. He's top 10 all time in NBA win shares. 15 straight seasons with a true shooting % in the top 10 of the NBA.

If anything, the players and media of the time underrated him because they didn't know what a good shot was.

I like Reggie a lot. I just don't think he's better than Allen.

 

[RichZ]

I loved Wes Unseld's game. But no way is he higher on the list than Lanier, or his own team-mate in Earl the Pearl. They are up to 41 already,and you know there are certain guys who HAVE to be top 15. MJ, Magic, Bird, Julius, Oscar, Russell, Wilt and Kareem off the top of my head represent more than half of the top 15, and if I'm making the list, Elgin Baylor and Moses belong there too. So that takes away another 10 spots, leaving 31 up for grabs. Make that 30, because Elvin Hayes has to be there too. Looking at where the existing guys are ranked, I've got a feeling it's going to be way too recency weighted near the top.

 

[Scoe]

No way should Vince Carterbe ranked above Ray, I dont think Ray should be ranked ahead of Drexler either. ESpins crap lists as usual, Reggie and Vince are historically overrated, Ray and Drexler are historically underrated.

 

[BlueMAB]

Players like Steve Kerr, Robert Horry, and a host of other players have rings, or were good shooters in low pressure situations. Allen and Carter were tasked with leading teams. Different calculus.

I mean, it's really hard to win, let alone get to a Finals, but find me a team that Carter went to that was a better team when he got there. Ray made Seattle, Boston, and Miami all better.

I don't knock Baylor, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, etc for. not winning a title. But they got there. Some get there later by catching up with teams looking for veterans.

Neither Carter nor Allen could be the best player on a championship team. But if you're drafting a player, you have to pick someone like Ray first: he never forced himself out of a situation, he was willing to sacrifice for the greater good, and other than counting numbers (like total points) he performed as well and often better than Carter, and did so on better teams at higher levels. Allen was robbed of the 2008 NBA Finals MVP.

I agree, I'll take Ray over Vince, but I still think you need to leave team accomplishments out of it.
And, Robert Horry didn't get the nickname "Big Shot Bob" because he made a bunch of "low pressure" shots. And if you're watching the Last Dance, you already know every shot is a pressure shot if you're playing with Micheal Jordan.

Not looking to argue, just commenting.

 

[Lefty2one]

Win shares loves him. 11 straight top 10 NBA offensive win share seasons. He's top 10 all time in NBA win shares. 15 straight seasons with a true shooting % in the top 10 of the NBA.

If anything, the players and media of the time underrated him because they didn't know what a good shot was.

Just another case where analytics/advanced stats aren't the be all, end all.

He was a one-dimensional player who wasn't great at creating his own shot. He never averaged more than four assists or four rebounds in a season, yet he finished in the Top 10 in PPG only once in his career so it's not like he was some elite scorer despite giving you little else. He was a subpar defender. He only made the All-Star team--a pretty easy feat--five times in his 18-year career, despite his reputation and popularity. His peak when Indiana was good--'93-'94 through their Finals season in '99'-00--was an unimpressive 20/3/3.

Then there's his clutch reputation. He had his big moments, no denying it, but no one brings up his failures in big spots--in part because everyone knew he wasn't really that good and didn't have high expectations for him. He wasn't held to the same standards as the greats of his day.

1994: Game 7 ECF vs the Knicks. Trailing by one with :06 left, airballs the potential game-winning 18-footer, then commits a dumb, although controversial flagrant foul, sealing the win for the Knicks.

1995: Pacers lose Game 7 to Orlando by 24 points. Registers 12/4/0 on 5/13 shooting.

1998: The famous seven-game ECF vs Chicago. A huge Game 6 from Rik Smits saves the Pacers from Reggie's 2/13, 8/2/0 performance.

1999: #2 seeded Pacers lose to the #8 seed Knicks in the ECF, getting eliminated in a game where Reggie shot 3/18 from the field and scored 6 points. Any other star would get murdered for something like this and I have never once heard it mentioned when discussing Reggie's legacy. Something like John Starks' 2/18 game vs HOU in the '94 Finals is mentioned all the time, but Reggie is above criticism.

This dude had a documentary made after him titled "Winning Time" about his rivalry with the Knicks even though he went 3-2 against them in the playoffs in the 90s lol.

He was a pretty good #2 who was on a perfectly built team to highlight his strengths. He was great at one thing, shooting-especially off screens--and that Pacers team with the Davis boys and Smits were ideal bruisers to help get Reggie the shots he needed. He made big shots, which people loved, and his antics were entertaining, but people looked the other way or shrugged it off when he laid an egg.

Hakeem is the only other player I've seen who is/was so free from criticism but at least Hakeem was a true all-time great.

 

[superjohn]

Just another case where analytics/advanced stats aren't the be all, end all.

He was a one-dimensional player who wasn't great at creating his own shot. He never averaged more than four assists or four rebounds in a season, yet he finished in the Top 10 in PPG only once in his career so it's not like he was some elite scorer despite giving you little else. He was a subpar defender. He only made the All-Star team--a pretty easy feat--five times in his 18-year career, despite his reputation and popularity. His peak when Indiana was good--'93-'94 through their Finals season in '99'-00--was an unimpressive 20/3/3.

Then there's his clutch reputation. He had his big moments, no denying it, but no one brings up his failures in big spots--in part because everyone knew he wasn't really that good and didn't have high expectations for him. He wasn't held to the same standards as the greats of his day.

1994: Game 7 ECF vs the Knicks. Trailing by one with :06 left, airballs the potential game-winning 18-footer, then commits a dumb, although controversial flagrant foul, sealing the win for the Knicks.

1995: Pacers lose Game 7 to Orlando by 24 points. Registers 12/4/0 on 5/13 shooting.

1998: The famous seven-game ECF vs Chicago. A huge Game 6 from Rik Smits saves the Pacers from Reggie's 2/13, 8/2/0 performance.

1999: #2 seeded Pacers lose to the #8 seed Knicks in the ECF, getting eliminated in a game where Reggie shot 3/18 from the field and scored 6 points. Any other star would get murdered for something like this and I have never once heard it mentioned when discussing Reggie's legacy. Something like John Starks' 2/18 game vs HOU in the '94 Finals is mentioned all the time, but Reggie is above criticism.

This dude had a documentary made after him titled "Winning Time" about his rivalry with the Knicks even though he went 3-2 against them in the playoffs in the 90s lol.

He was a pretty good #2 who was on a perfectly built team to highlight his strengths. He was great at one thing, shooting-especially off screens--and that Pacers team with the Davis boys and Smits were ideal bruisers to help get Reggie the shots he needed. He made big shots, which people loved, and his antics were entertaining, but people looked the other way or shrugged it off when he laid an egg.

Hakeem is the only other player I've seen who is/was so free from criticism but at least Hakeem was a true all-time great.

The idea that anyone could've watched Miller and Drexler and think Miller is better is so ridiculous. Reggie was a better shooter, that's it. Drexler was a much better passer, rebounder, defender, driver etc. Just a much better player.

 

[RichZ]

The idea that anyone could've watched Miller and Drexler and think Miller is better is so ridiculous. Reggie was a better shooter, that's it. Drexler was a much better passer, rebounder, defender, driver etc. Just a much better player.

And absolutely way more fun to watch.

 

[BGesus4]

Yea, not happy with Vince and Tracy being rsnk better.

There was a decent stretch where tmac was one of the 5 best players in the league

 

[TheChamps990411]

Meh! I dont care either way. Its a list based on objective opinion not any real fact to support the choices.

 

[tzznandrew]

I agree, I'll take Ray over Vince, but I still think you need to leave team accomplishments out of it.
And, Robert Horry didn't get the nickname "Big Shot Bob" because he made a bunch of "low pressure" shots. And if you're watching the Last Dance, you already know every shot is a pressure shot if you're playing with Micheal Jordan.

Not looking to argue, just commenting.

There's a reason I used the word "or."

Team success has to play a role in this. Pretending it doesn't is silly. If you put up a million points but your team is always in last place, that's telling. Leading your team to deep playoff runs is a mark of greatness. Being a player who can mesh with different teams is as well. We may debate how much it plays a role, but to "leave team accomplishments out of it" is silly, especially since team success plays a role in the sorts of individual awards (MVP, All-NBA, All Star) and stats (Win Shares) that eventually lead to where we rank players (and the HOF). Otherwise we're making arguments that players like Shareef Abdur-Raheem was underrated for a decade.

 

[tzznandrew]

Meh! I dont care either way. Its a list based on objective opinion not any real fact to support the choices.

Well, you mean subjective opinion, and, yeah, that's pretty much all sports discussion. All such lists or discussions of "who would beat who," once you get past the Globetrotters vs. the Generals or the 1998 Bulls vs. the 1946 Pittsburgh Ironmen, become essentially opinion, with a variety of facts in available to support multiple opinions.

That's sort of the fun in sports debates, if you enjoy such things.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Breezed through the list. Not entirely impressed but it's not atrocious.

Look at the centers they've discussed so far- Gilmore, Lanier, Unseld, Reed, Mutombo, Cowens, Mourning, Parish, Walton.

You have a mix of guys who had huge peaks but fell off quickly, some were really good for a really long period of time, some were more specialists, some were well-rounded in their skill set. And then they put Mourning in there. He's the head scratcher out of that group for me. I think he is well below the rest for career achievement.

You have a neat history of the 4/5 hybrid with Davis, Gasol, Hayes. Hayes was one of the first face up 4/5 who could score outside the paint with his face to the basket but still rebound and defend. Gasol was another generation of that and now you have Davis who will easily go past Gasol in career accomplishments and approach Hayes.

You got a bunch of scorers who didn't do much else- English, Gervin, Barry, Dominque, etc.

Ray is in there with the guards where he should be. You can argue the sequencing, but they do all belong in the same general grouping of 15-20 slots- Ray, Reggie, Vince, TMac. Personally I'd put Ray above Reggie and Vince. He was a dominant player on Milwaukee and Seattle on very good teams, was a key player on the Celts' championship and a key contributor with the Heat when they won it all. Plus he had the iconic shot against the Spurs.

 

[Mr. French]

There was a decent stretch where tmac was one of the 5 best players in the league

*scorers - I never thought much of T-mac as a player overall ... but he could fill it up. Like a prime Melo, to me.

 

[auror]

The idea that anyone could've watched Miller and Drexler and think Miller is better is so ridiculous. Reggie was a better shooter, that's it. Drexler was a much better passer, rebounder, defender, driver etc. Just a much better player.

PIPM supports this:

 

[HuskyFich]

Players like Steve Kerr, Robert Horry, and a host of other players have rings, or were good shooters in low pressure situations. Allen and Carter were tasked with leading teams. Different calculus.

I mean, it's really hard to win, let alone get to a Finals, but find me a team that Carter went to that was a better team when he got there. Ray made Seattle, Boston, and Miami all better.

I don't knock Baylor, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, etc for. not winning a title. But they got there. Some get there later by catching up with teams looking for veterans.

Neither Carter nor Allen could be the best player on a championship team. But if you're drafting a player, you have to pick someone like Ray first: he never forced himself out of a situation, he was willing to sacrifice for the greater good, and other than counting numbers (like total points) he performed as well and often better than Carter, and did so on better teams at higher levels. Allen was robbed of the 2008 NBA Finals MVP.

Not trying to throw gas on the fire, but this is a pretty rough take man. I love Ray, top 5 husky all time for me, but he was the 3rd string on the Celtics Big 3, he was not even part of the big 3 in Miami. His one shot is legendary, but he wasn't winning or leading games for that team on the reg. Seattle nor Milwaukee made the finals when Ray was the guy, they were barely contenders. Just sayin...Vince is an all-timer.

EDIT: Vince Carter didn't chase championships at the end by being a bench veteran. I consider that admirable. I laugh every time I think of what players like David West did.

 

[Scoe]

Not trying to throw gas on the fire, but this is a pretty rough take man. I love Ray, top 5 husky all time for me, but he was the 3rd string on the Celtics Big 3, he was not even part of the big 3 in Miami. His one shot is legendary, but he wasn't winning or leading games for that team on the reg. Seattle nor Milwaukee made the finals when Ray was the guy, they were barely contenders. Just sayin...Vince is an all-timer.

EDIT: Vince Carter didn't chase championships at the end by being a bench veteran. I consider that admirable. I laugh every time I think of what players like David West did.

Every team Ray went to got better, every team Vince went to got worse.