Ray Allen #56 all time in NBA

[BleedHuskyBlu]

Who are you putting KD ahead of on the remaining list?


Steph
Olajuwon
Big O
and then the top 10
Shaq
Wilt
Jabbar
Russell
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Lebron
Tim Duncan
MJ

KD better than Kobe, Duncan, Bird.

Steph is close but ill give it to Steph

 

[Chin Diesel]

KD better than Kobe, Duncan, Bird.

Steph is close but ill give it to Steph

Fair enough. Most will disagree but at least you didn't go the Dickie V route and put 90 teams in NCAA tourney.

 

[Scoe]

Joined Nets two years after their championship.
Joined the Magic the year after their finals appearance, and the year the Miami Heat big 3 were formed
Joined the Mavs the year after their championship season.

But keep going, please.

EDIT: All I'm trying to prove here is that you are criminally underrating Vince Carter.

By putting Ray over Vince I’m criminally underrating him your quite the drama queen. Vince is a HOF btw.

 

[tzznandrew]

Ray did pretty good in the playoffs with the Sonics and Bucks better then Vince ever did and had a 50 pt game when he was past his prime. Vince joined contenders like the Nets, Magic and Mavericks guess what they all took a step back. Ray got to the Celtics before KG got there. Your the one with the weak argument getting comparing it to KD joining GS which is getting OT go take a lap.

The 2001 Bucks were screwed out of the NBA Finals and Ray went toe-to-toe with Iverson in that series.

 

[tzznandrew]

Who are you putting KD ahead of on the remaining list?


Steph
Olajuwon
Big O
and then the top 10
Shaq
Wilt
Jabbar
Russell
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Lebron
Tim Duncan
MJ

I'd put KD above Steph. The two played together and it was clear who the better player was.

I also think his prime is better than Kobe's prime, and if he comes back healthy I'm comfortably putting him ahead of him.

 

[tzznandrew]

3 point shooting, defending, athleticism, Scoring in general. Bird was overrated in a bad era

You can't really compare the 3-pt shooting--players just didn't take as many shots.

You're also either obviously trolling or incredibly, because in the 1980s the league was stacked. It was diluted by the mid-1990s and took until the mid-2000s before it was as talent-rich again.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I'd put KD above Steph. The two played together and it was clear who the better player was.

I also think his prime is better than Kobe's prime, and if he comes back healthy I'm comfortably putting him ahead of him.

I'd put KD ahead of Steph as well. If KD comes back he still needs another 5-6 years to get to past Olajuwon to get to #12. The. There's the Big O at #11. Really tough to put him ahead of Oscar and the rest unless he gets a few more championships.

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

Fair enough. Most will disagree but at least you didn't go the Dickie V route and put 90 teams in NCAA tourney.

Im

You can't really compare the 3-pt shooting--players just didn't take as many shots.

You're also either obviously trolling or incredibly, because in the 1980s the league was stacked. It was diluted by the mid-1990s and took until the mid-2000s before it was as talent-rich again.

KD has a better 3pt % while shooting way more 3s...
Seems like it’s pretty easy to compare to me

 

[RichZ]

FYI, Elvin Hayes was in the 40's.

People forget or are ignorant of Clyde's playmaking. His 5-year peak was 25/7/6. His legacy was hurt by being in Portland for much of his career. He's the perfect guy to juxtapose with Reggie in terms of what media exposure can do for a player.

And Reggie's media exposure was ramped way beyond what would have come naturally by 2 things -- the Knicks (including the sideline jawing with Spike Lee) and his sister.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Well, you mean subjective opinion, and, yeah, that's pretty much all sports discussion. All such lists or discussions of "who would beat who," once you get past the Globetrotters vs. the Generals or the 1998 Bulls vs. the 1946 Pittsburgh Ironmen, become essentially opinion, with a variety of facts in available to support multiple opinions.

That's sort of the fun in sports debates, if you enjoy such things.

Thanks for the correction lol. I absolutely enjoy the debates but I do get annoyed by people that get upset when their guy isn't higher on these lists. I think its cool Ray is even on the list but whether he was higher or lower doesn't matter to me because he was a great player and brought me a lot of joy to watch him play.

 

[tzznandrew]

KD has a better 3pt % while shooting way more 3s...
Seems like it’s pretty easy to compare to me

This is way too simple. It's like saying people who play baseball now can't hit for average. Bird played in an era where people didn't shoot many 3s. Bird shot 37% from 3 and never practiced them. Literally. You can talk to people on his team at the time. If you actually watch games Bird played in and tell me that, in a world that actually valued 3s his 3pt shot wouldn't have improved, you're showing your recency bias.

Bird in today's game would be a better shooting, better passing, better rebounding Luka Dončić. When you compare players, by and large you have to compare them against the players they went against in their era. Bird won more MVPs than KD, he has thus far won more titles, and he did it in an era before expansion with a host of other guys who would be good in today's league.

 

[superjohn]

Bird was a 3x champ and 3x MVP and played when Magic, MJ, Moses and Olajuwon were in their absolute primes. He had 3 straight MVP's.

Crazy Bird stat- He received 67% of the MVP vote for basically the entire decade of the 80's. He never finished below 4th in MVP voting for 9 years straight.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Crazy Bird stat- He received 67% of the MVP vote for basically the entire decade of the 80's. He never finished below 4th in MVP voting for 9 years straight.

When you get in to the Top 10 the numbers are mesmerizing. Look at The Big Fundamentals Achievements

15x 1st Team All NBA
15x 1st Team All Defensive
2x MVP
5x Champ
3x Champ MVP

 

[Chin Diesel]

Crazy Bird stat- He received 67% of the MVP vote for basically the entire decade of the 80's. He never finished below 4th in MVP voting for 9 years straight.

And Magic went 9 seasons in the 80's without finishing outside of Top 3.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Just saw Iverson at 29. Good god. Most overrated player of my lifetime. So incredibly inefficient. Advanced numbers do not like him. Yeah, he scored a ton of points, but he used so many possessions on his own shot attempts.

 

[Scoe]

I think Jason Kidd is historically underrated, at 40 he was the defacto coach of the 2012-13 Knicks who won 55 games that year and outplayed Derron Williams who was his prime and hit a ton of clutch shots that year.

 

[Excalibur]

There is nothing Larry Bird does better than KD. Literally not one thing

Objectively untrue.

 

[auror]

When you get in to the Top 10 the numbers are mesmerizing. Look at The Big Fundamentals Achievements

15x 1st Team All NBA
15x 1st Team All Defensive
2x MVP
5x Champ
3x Champ MVP

View attachment 54247

Only 10 1st teams (5 2nd or 3rd). Still insane.

 

[tzznandrew]

Thanks for the correction lol. I absolutely enjoy the debates but I do get annoyed by people that get upset when their guy isn't higher on these lists. I think its cool Ray is even on the list but whether he was higher or lower doesn't matter to me because he was a great player and brought me a lot of joy to watch him play.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to be a

All debates about sports are ultimately meaningless because sports of fun, meaningless events. There are debates I find more worthless than others, too, but who cares? It's all worthless fun.

 

[UofCT]

As usual Reggie Miller is ranked way too high. Dude is easily the most overrated player of the last 40 years. A couple of big moments against the Knicks and he became a media darling. No one ever brings up his flaws and shortcomings.

shortcomings? I guess Reggie would be ranked higher if he joined a super team like Ray Allen did instead of carrying a small market filled with no stars to 6 ECF, and 1 NBA Finals.

 

[UofCT]

Prime Ray Allen is and will always be underrated. He didn't get tons of notice from the general public until the last 7-8 years of his career, when he took a backseat to KG and Pierce and then joined as a specialist (nothing wrong with that, I don't get the criticism for when players do this) with the Heat.

Seattle Ray and even Bucks Ray was a bad man.

That said, I haven't gone deep into this article in any way to compare players, but just outside 50 sounds reasonable to me.

You mean the last 7-8 years when he played with other HOFers?

 

[Lefty2one]

shortcomings? I guess Reggie would be ranked higher if he joined a super team like Ray Allen did instead of carrying a small market filled with no stars to 6 ECF, and 1 NBA Finals.

Interestingly you quoted this post of mine re: Reggie and not the second, more detailed one.

 

[tzznandrew]

Just another case where analytics/advanced stats aren't the be all, end all.

He was a one-dimensional player who wasn't great at creating his own shot. He never averaged more than four assists or four rebounds in a season, yet he finished in the Top 10 in PPG only once in his career so it's not like he was some elite scorer despite giving you little else. He was a subpar defender. He only made the All-Star team--a pretty easy feat--five times in his 18-year career, despite his reputation and popularity. His peak when Indiana was good--'93-'94 through their Finals season in '99'-00--was an unimpressive 20/3/3.

Then there's his clutch reputation. He had his big moments, no denying it, but no one brings up his failures in big spots--in part because everyone knew he wasn't really that good and didn't have high expectations for him. He wasn't held to the same standards as the greats of his day.

1994: Game 7 ECF vs the Knicks. Trailing by one with :06 left, airballs the potential game-winning 18-footer, then commits a dumb, although controversial flagrant foul, sealing the win for the Knicks.

1995: Pacers lose Game 7 to Orlando by 24 points. Registers 12/4/0 on 5/13 shooting.

1998: The famous seven-game ECF vs Chicago. A huge Game 6 from Rik Smits saves the Pacers from Reggie's 2/13, 8/2/0 performance.

1999: #2 seeded Pacers lose to the #8 seed Knicks in the ECF, getting eliminated in a game where Reggie shot 3/18 from the field and scored 6 points. Any other star would get murdered for something like this and I have never once heard it mentioned when discussing Reggie's legacy. Something like John Starks' 2/18 game vs HOU in the '94 Finals is mentioned all the time, but Reggie is above criticism.

This dude had a documentary made after him titled "Winning Time" about his rivalry with the Knicks even though he went 3-2 against them in the playoffs in the 90s lol.

He was a pretty good #2 who was on a perfectly built team to highlight his strengths. He was great at one thing, shooting-especially off screens--and that Pacers team with the Davis boys and Smits were ideal bruisers to help get Reggie the shots he needed. He made big shots, which people loved, and his antics were entertaining, but people looked the other way or shrugged it off when he laid an egg.

Hakeem is the only other player I've seen who is/was so free from criticism but at least Hakeem was a true all-time great.

I'm a fan of analytics, but your point here is right on. You have to watch the games. It gets difficult for games going back too far in the past, but it is absolutely necessary. While analytics definitely brings out things we've missed, it sometimes overstates them. Nobody watching basketball in the 1990s thought Miller was one of the 10-15 best players in the league.

Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Robinson, Olajuwon, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Grant Hill, Payton, Kemp, Ewing--everyone knew these guys were all better. Stockton was, too, but, he didn't have a ton of acclaim. You might throw in Mutombo, too.

When you lived and watched the 90s, you had a sense of who Miller was. A very good player who, when you were watching him, never felt like a Hall of Famer.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Dropped 10-1.

Shaq
Kobe
Timmy D
Bird
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Jabbar
LeBron
MJ

No way am I putting Russell ahead of Magic.
To me you can argue Magic, LeBron and Jabbar for 2-4.

I'd even go with Wilt at #5 ahead of Russell.

Ranking the top 74 players of all time: 10-1

Who lands in the top spot as the greatest NBA player of all time?

www.espn.com

 

[Scoe]

Ray got traded to the Celtics if hes not there KG doesn't go there and Pierce leaves. The year after Ray left the Celtics lost in the 1st round to the Knicks and it turned out the Heat actually needed Ray that year to win it all. Btw who saved the Celtics from losing to the 7th seeded Bulls oh yeah that would be Ray.