Possible Big 12 Invite rumors

[superjohn]

Actually I think it's four prior men's basketball champions, no?

Kansas, Baylor, Cincinnati and Oklahoma State?

When Oklahoma State won it in the 40's the field was 8 teams and it wasn't the premier tournament. In the 60's when Cincinnati won it was 16 teams but was at least the premier tournament by then.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I may not be following along. Are you suggesting that a single state, North Carolina, would secure a larger TV payout than the B12? Who will they play? Who is in this new league With Duke, UNC, and NC St?

Even in the unlikely event they lose UVA, Clemson or FSU, the answer is: Geogia Tech, Miami, BC, Pitt, Virginia Tech, Louisville. The ACC has an older contract, that pays as much as the B12 (more in the next several years as it was designed to increase each year). If they had negotiated the contract last year, like the B12, it would absolutely pay more than the B12 contract.

 

[CL82]

They signed that package over a DECADE ago, and the environment for rights packages has changed over the last 10 years

Check this out:

Florida St v. Texas Tech
Clemson v. Oklahoma St.
North Carolina v. Kansas
Virginia v. Kansas St.
Duke v. Baylor
Miami v. TCU
Virginia Tech v. BYU
NC State v. Kansas St.
Georgia Tech v. Iowa St.
Louisville v. Houston
Pittsburgh v. Cincy

This simple comparison shows you how and why the ACC is more valuable.

Even if I remove the top 3 schools, it's the same exact result.

They signed that package a decade ago and are stuck with it for another 13 years. Keep in mind as well that I doubt the big 12 is losing any more members, but I wouldn't count on the ACC keeping FSU, Clemson, UNC, and Virginia.

 

[CL82]

No, unless you're arguing the state has defunded the academic side. State funding for UConn hasn't tracked with inflation. Which is why tuition has skyrocketed. Start back a decade ago when UConn was losing $10m a year on athletics and move forward from there. Has the state provided an increase in funding that equals inflation increases PLUS the extra $40m athletics loss? No, not when you count the increases alongside the liabilities removed from the state budget and appended to UConn. The move of liabilities from the state ledger to UConn's ledger has meant the school now incurs over $100m more in costs for those liabilities than it used to 10 years ago.

You'll forgive me if that seems inconsistent to me. The state never pays the athletic department directly. It pays the university and the university pays the athletic department. Under your reasoning above, the academic side gets credit for payments to the athletic department even though that money comes from the state rather than its own revenues. Should we also be critical of the academic side for running deficits then? Do they make a profit without a state subsidy?

 

[upstater]

You'll forgive me if that seems inconsistent to me. The state never pays the athletic department directly. It pays the university and the university pays the athletic department. Under your reasoning above, the academic side gets credit for payments to the athletic department even though that money comes from the state rather than its own revenues. Should we also be critical of the academic side for running deficits then? Do they make a profit without a state subsidy?

I stated the opposite.

If you say the state covers the athletics deficit by applying increased state funding to the athletic deficit, THEN (after accounting for the increase in liabilities from the state budget to UConn), you would have to conclude UConn has received a reduction in funding for the academic side.

 

[upstater]

They signed that package a decade ago and are stuck with it for another 13 years. Keep in mind as well that I doubt the big 12 is losing any more members, but I wouldn't count on the ACC keeping FSU, Clemson, UNC, and Virginia.

I wrote that when they go up for a new package they'll be worth more. If the two of them weren't without a package right now, the ACC would be worth more.

And even without 3 or 4 of the ones listed, they'd be worth more (because of ND, I say the ACC loses 3, rather than 4). ND will get a B1G spot.

 

[upstater]

I may not be following along. Are you suggesting that a single state, North Carolina, would secure a larger TV payout than the B12? Who will they play? Who is in this new league With Duke, UNC, and NC St?

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

I was talking about all the ACC.

I thought the question was, would a network provide enough funding to take the average per school over the B12 avg.?

I believed the question of North Carolina related to whether 4 schools in the same state were worth that average value, and I said 3 of them definitely were.

 

[HuskyHawk]

When Oklahoma State won it in the 40's the field was 8 teams and it wasn't the premier tournament. In the 60's when Cincinnati won it was 16 teams but was at least the premier tournament by then.

Does it matter really? Are we hanging our hat on DePaul, Marquette and Georgetown's wins? Is it a competitive and quality basketball conference. Yes, it is. Let's count backward in final fours based on 2024 members that are not UCONN (since we'd add wherever). Skipped year = 0 to year 2000.

2022: B12 1, BE 1
2021: B12 2
2018: BE 1, B12 1
2012: B12 1
2010: B12 1 (WVU in BE at the time)
2009: BE 1
2008: B12 1
2007: BE 1
2004: B12 1
2003: B12 1 BE 1
2002: B12 1

 

[CL82]

I wrote that when they go up for a new package they'll be worth more. If the two of them weren't without a package right now, the ACC would be worth more.

And even without 3 or 4 of the ones listed, they'd be worth more (because of ND, I say the ACC loses 3, rather than 4). ND will get a B1G spot.

Perhaps, but they're not up for another package until 2036. By then the big 12 will already have had two new deals in place. Don't get me wrong we should take the first P5 offer that comes our way, but it sure seems like the big 12 is better positioned over the next 13 years then the ACC is. After 2036, the ACC is likely going to have to cobble together a contract without its best properties. I don't particularly think that deal will be competitive with the big 12. Heck, rumor has it that Louisville already has a ticket out to the big 12. Whether it is true or not, it's another indication of the perception of weakness in the ACC over the long term.

 

[CL82]

I stated the opposite.

If you say the state covers the athletics deficit by applying increased state funding to the athletic deficit, THEN (after accounting for the increase in liabilities from the state budget to UConn), you would have to conclude UConn has received a reduction in funding for the academic side.

Definitionally the state pays for the athletic deficit, because the academic side does not earn sufficient funds to pay for its own expenses fully, never mind it's own expenses and the AD side.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

When Oklahoma State won it in the 40's the field was 8 teams and it wasn't the premier tournament. In the 60's when Cincinnati won it was 16 teams but was at least the premier tournament by then.

Right, it doesn't hold nearly as much weight but still worth noting. Which I think we debated the merits of Indiana's "blue blood" status over this very fact.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Perhaps, but they're not up for another package until 2036. By then the big 12 will already have had two new deals in place. Don't get me wrong we should take the first P5 offer that comes our way, but it sure seems like the big 12 is better positioned over the next 13 years then the ACC is. After 2036, the ACC is likely going to have to cobble together a contract without its best properties. I don't particularly think that deal will be competitive with the big 12. Heck, rumor has it that Louisville already has a ticket out to the big 12. Whether it is true or not, it's another indication of the perception of weakness in the ACC over the long term.

I think it's wrong, and in fact WVU and Cinci would leave the 12 for the ACC in a heartbeat. That would be their dream scenario with Louisville and Pitt in the league. The perceived weakness is just posturing. A year ago people thought the B12 was done.

But we will see.

 

[CL82]

I think it's wrong, and in fact WVU and Cinci would leave the 12 for the ACC in a heartbeat. That would be their dream scenario with Louisville and Pitt in the league. The perceived weakness is just posturing. A year ago people thought the B12 was done.

But we will see.

I agree that West Virginia has been pining away for the ACC since forever. Given the current financial outlooks of the two leagues and the recent additions to the big 12, that may have changed. They were really out on an island geographically and hated it. That is one of the things that gives me a minute pause about accepting a big 12 offer.

 

[superjohn]

Does it matter really? Are we hanging our hat on DePaul, Marquette and Georgetown's wins? Is it a competitive and quality basketball conference. Yes, it is. Let's count backward in final fours based on 2024 members that are not UCONN (since we'd add wherever). Skipped year = 0 to year 2000.

2022: B12 1, BE 1
2021: B12 2
2018: BE 1, B12 1
2012: B12 1
2010: B12 1 (WVU in BE at the time)
2009: BE 1
2008: B12 1
2007: BE 1
2004: B12 1
2003: B12 1 BE 1
2002: B12 1

No but it seems kind of useless to count championships from the 40's and before. It's why all the St. John's championships and DePaul championship aren't brought up and why we relentlessly make fun of Syracuse fans for bringing up Helms trophies.

Final 4's have never really mattered to me, it's all about winning the whole thing.

 

[superjohn]

Right, it doesn't hold nearly as much weight but still worth noting. Which I think we debated the merits of Indiana's "blue blood" status over this very fact.

Good point on Indiana.

 

[HuskyHawk]

No but it seems kind of useless to count championships from the 40's and before. It's why all the St. John's championships and DePaul championship aren't brought up and why we relentlessly make fun of Syracuse fans for bringing up Helms trophies.

Final 4's have never really mattered to me, it's all about winning the whole thing.

Yeah, I'm the opposite. Titles are arbitrary. Means nothing at the conference level. Consistent quality of play is what I am looking for in a league. Or would you turn down the B1G, which sucks when it comes to NCs?

 

[superjohn]

Yeah, I'm the opposite. Titles are arbitrary. Means nothing at the conference level. Consistent quality of play is what I am looking for in a league. Or would you turn down the B1G, which sucks when it comes to NCs?

Of course I wouldn't turn down the Big 10 but I think they kind of stink in basketball.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

At the moment the media contracts for the ACC and B-12 pay iut basically the same dollar amount per school but, in a couple years when the new contract kicks in, the B-12 will make nearly $20 million more per school per year. Additionally, in 2031, the B-12's contract comes up for renewal with the likelyhood of a further increase over what ACC schools make as they are locked in until 2036. The major cause of the noise from Tallahassee is that soon UCF will receive considerably more revenue than FSU.

The ACC's options are a) ask ESPN nicely to increase the current contract and allow a provision to increase it again when the B-12 gets a new contract in 2031, b) ask ESPN very nicely to increase the current contract to levels that would equate them with the B1G and SEC or c) find a way to get out of the current contract.

I'm pretty confident that at least a modest attempt was made at option a which ESPN would have declined once they stopped laughing. I doubt option b was attempted as ESPN was still laughing at theier attempting option a. I'm very confident that a couple of teams of very high powered attorneys looked into the possibility of option c only to confirm that it is not a realistic possibility, therefore we have been hearing the excessive amount of noise from a few ACC schools about (what tg hey percieve as) the lack of fairness in their current situation.

 

[CL82]

Yeah, I'm the opposite. Titles are arbitrary. Means nothing at the conference level. Consistent quality of play is what I am looking for in a league. Or would you turn down the B1G, which sucks when it comes to NCs?

No, I would just offer our services in correct in that persistent short coming.

(How do you define consistent quality of play? That seems a little subjective.)

 

[August_West]

Yeah, I'm the opposite. Titles are arbitrary. Means nothing at the conference level. Consistent quality of play is what I am looking for in a league. Or would you turn down the B1G, which sucks when it comes to NCs?

I wouldnt turn B1G down because it makes sense for us as a State university, and I would hope it is seen that we prop up their hoops postseason (like we did for OBE, AAC and NBE) and they prop our football. Makes way more sense than AAC 2.0 (B12)

 

[Kathy]

I would hate to leave the BE as much as anyone- particularly in a moment where the conference is set in the near-term with the most impressive coaching lineup in the sport. And, I do think those games against the dregs of the B12 will generate less local interest than competing against the dregs of the BE. Couple all this with no more BET/MSG, and I think there is a significant risk that interest in the MBB program wanes LOCALLY (though not to the levels of the AAC/Ollie years).

HOWEVER, the program would be foolish to turn down $50MM per school and the associated national exposure from being on ESPN and ESPN.com again. With those things, I would expect robust NIL programs to follow. This is what'll be needed to compete in the future college landscape.

If interest in UConn MBB wanes locally because of conference affiliation, were they really Uconn fans to begin with?
Sorry - if you are a true fan it shouldn't matter. I've followed this program since the 70's and can probably count on 2 hands the number of games I've misse and most of those were in my early working years - 2nd and 3rd shift in a hospital (even then I taped them when I could and watched).

 

[superjohn]

If interest in UConn MBB wanes locally because of conference affiliation, were they really Uconn fans to begin with?
Sorry - if you are a true fan it shouldn't matter. I've followed this program since the 70's and can probably count on 2 hands the number of games I've misse and most of those were in my early working years - 2nd and 3rd shift in a hospital (even then I taped them when I could and watched).

Who cares how many games you or I have watched? It isn't relevant to the interest the fanbase has and whether they sellout games all the time.

 

[upstater]

They signed that package a decade ago and are stuck with it for another 13 years. Keep in mind as well that I doubt the big 12 is losing any more members, but I wouldn't count on the ACC keeping FSU, Clemson, UNC, and Virginia.

We're discussing if the league broke up and they negotiated a new deal now.

 

[HuskyHawk]

No, I would just offer our services in correct in that persistent short coming.

(How do you define consistent quality of play? That seems a little subjective.)

Kenpom rankings over time? I want to see good games all season. We play the cupcakes and I want the league games to be competitive and give us a chance to get in the tournament and make a run. That's it. Every P5 and the Big East provides that. You're right that UConn would elevate the title chances of any league we are in.

 

[Scoe]

If interest in UConn MBB wanes locally because of conference affiliation, were they really Uconn fans to begin with?
Sorry - if you are a true fan it shouldn't matter. I've followed this program since the 70's and can probably count on 2 hands the number of games I've misse and most of those were in my early working years - 2nd and 3rd shift in a hospital (even then I taped them when I could and watched).

And it’s not as if we couldnt schedule 2-3 BE teams a year, St John’s, Providence and Georgetown for instance.