Pete Rose, 'Shoeless' Joe Jackson among players reinstated by MLB

[uh-no]

Here’s a good question. Who made it into the HOF that you suspect was on performance enhancers?

We know some of the pitchers were using them to recover from injury. Because after it came out that Petite was doing it, a number of players came out and said that it was common practice.

mike piazza is the obvious one.

 

[Lafayette]

I worked for MLB back in '08 and we talked openly at the time about Rose vs Bonds (who retired the year prior) in specific what "the integrity of the game" is defined at because we know MLB uses that to cover as much and as often as our government uses "for security purposes".

Ultimately we, my group of employees talked about this ~35 deep, and said for Rose while it was not a question of him tampering (no lineup changes, benching, ever a word to players to play poorly), but he bet on games while managing. That puts into question by fans who care about both betting and ethics of managers, which would be a decent population and make them think somewhat less of the game. That felt like an integrity issue so we supported the ban.

Bonds was a little different, alleged roid and cocktails vs betting. But given we had McGwire, Sosa, and others test positive and come out but for Bonds it was a question of 'alleged'. Some could infer that his buddy going to jail for refusing to testify was hurting Bonds chances, while others did not think so. So at the time it was Bonds should not be because we don't have hard proof. We noted Rose if his gambling was alleged not proven would get the same.

 

[mauconnfan]

My guy was well like and elected to the Hall of Fame. Your guy wasn't.

He did a great job of being well liked and we agree on that no doubt. But he’s still no different than ARod, Roger or Barry other than he wasn’t as good as them in any way before any of these 3 began using. That’s the only issue I have. Top it off that he couldn’t find his glove his last 10 years the hypocrisy of him getting in immediately tells you what a joke the HOF now is.

Oh and as an FYI I don’t have a “guy” in this debate not a fan of any of the 4 we are discussing here, even the ones that played for my Yankees.

 

[Vowelguy]

Both should be inducted at the earliest they are eligible, which apparently is 2028.

Nah.
Choices have consequences.

 

[Vowelguy]

I think all of the deserving PED guys need to be let in tomorrow. PED's were tacitly allowed during the period in question, the sudden 360 and retroactive enforcement by MLB was really rotten; befitting a man like Bud Selig. A used-car salesman. What's the reason for excluding these players? Cheating? Then why is Gaylord Perry in the HoF. He was the most successful cheater in the history of the game. He would have been absolutely nothing without cheating. He was caught several times and he admitted it. What more do you need? Why does he deserve the ultimate reward and not a superior pitcher like Clemens?

This reminds me of a former coworker of mine who went to court to challenge a speeding ticket.

His defense: “Yes I was speeding, but there are lots of people who speed every day and don’t get fined. So I shouldn’t either.”

He lost.

 

[dennismenace]

To be perfectly fair and honest I am not a Red Sox nor Yankees fan. I am an Angels fan.

But Ted Williams was a better hitter than Mantle but almost all accounts.

Mantle could hit the long ball but Williams could put it any where he damn wanted to.

Williams was acknowledged as perhaps the best pure hitter in modern baseball. It would have been interesting if they had been playing in each others parks. Williams was a pure pull hitter. In his prime years (1940's) the shift was applied almost exclusively against him. Therefore "where he damn wanted to" was right field. Mantle was a switch hitter with enormous power to all fields. Here is a link which at the time was reserved almost exclusively for Williams. He would not alter his swing but rather just kept smashing it through or over right field.
Evolution Of The Shift: The Real Issue In MLB

I'm a fan of Williams though a Yankee fan.
Guy was a legend. Listen to him talk about his contemporaries:

 

[boog204]

Here’s a good question. Who made it into the HOF that you suspect was on performance enhancers?

We know some of the pitchers were using them to recover from injury. Because after it came out that Petite was doing it, a number of players came out and said that it was common practice.

Piazza, Bagwell, Ortiz, Pudge, Biggio

Ortiz failed the same test that Bonds, Ramirez, Sosa, ARod, Manny, Grimsley, and Segui failed in 03. The other 6 guys are easily known users. Yet, Papi always got a pass because he was likable.

I think everyone knows Pudge did. When Canseco came out w/ his book he was vilified. Ironically, I think he might be one of the few honest people of the era. So when he says he personally injected Pudge, Palmeiro, and Juan Gonz, I believe him.

Bagwell and Piazza both have bizarre career jumps. Bagwell was a skinny 3B with 15 hr power who became friends with Caminiti, and turned into a monster who hit 40+ a year. Piazza was an afterthought, a favor draft pick who became the best hitting catcher in MLB history.

Biggio was named by a teammate as a user for a few years.

 

[jibsey]

Nah.
Choices have consequences.

Not always, Look around.

 

[Scoe]

They are either good enough or their not so put them in it's the HOF not the Hall of character or morals. Imagine who would be left out of the pro football hall of fame with the writers double standards.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

Piazza, Bagwell, Ortiz, Pudge, Biggio

Ortiz failed the same test that Bonds, Ramirez, Sosa, ARod, Manny, Grimsley, and Segui failed in 03. The other 6 guys are easily known users. Yet, Papi always got a pass because he was likable.

I think everyone knows Pudge did. When Canseco came out w/ his book he was vilified. Ironically, I think he might be one of the few honest people of the era. So when he says he personally injected Pudge, Palmeiro, and Juan Gonz, I believe him.

Bagwell and Piazza both have bizarre career jumps. Bagwell was a skinny 3B with 15 hr power who became friends with Caminiti, and turned into a monster who hit 40+ a year. Piazza was an afterthought, a favor draft pick who became the best hitting catcher in MLB history.

Biggio was named by a teammate as a user for a few years.

Not in the HOF but Brady Anderson in 1996 is the most obvious case that’s rarely mentioned.

 

[Deepster]

Piazza, Bagwell, Ortiz, Pudge, Biggio

Bagwell and Piazza both have bizarre career jumps. Bagwell was a skinny 3B with 15 hr power who became friends with Caminiti, and turned into a monster who hit 40+ a year. Piazza was an afterthought, a favor draft pick who became the best hitting catcher in MLB history.

Piazza never had a significant jump in power. And he never had an injury that he'd need "extra" to recover from. Not sure why he gets this perception of steroid usage. Give me one stat or factual point you see below that would lead to that.

Season	Age	Team	G	PA	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
1992	23	LAD	21	74	69	16	3	0	1	7	0.232	0.284	0.319	0.603
1993	24	LAD	149	602	547	174	24	2	35	112	0.318	0.370	0.561	0.932
1994	25	LAD	107	441	405	129	18	0	24	92	0.319	0.370	0.541	0.910
1995	26	LAD	112	475	434	150	17	0	32	93	0.346	0.400	0.606	1.006
1996	27	LAD	148	631	547	184	16	0	36	105	0.336	0.422	0.563	0.985
1997	28	LAD	152	633	556	201	32	1	40	124	0.362	0.431	0.638	1.070
1998	29	3TM	151	626	561	184	38	1	32	111	0.328	0.390	0.570	0.960
1999	30	NYM	141	593	534	162	25	0	40	124	0.303	0.361	0.575	0.936
2000	31	NYM	136	545	482	156	26	0	38	113	0.324	0.398	0.614	1.012
2001	32	NYM	141	573	503	151	29	0	36	94	0.300	0.384	0.573	0.957
2002	33	NYM	135	541	478	134	23	2	33	98	0.280	0.359	0.544	0.903
2003	34	NYM	68	273	234	67	13	0	11	34	0.286	0.377	0.483	0.860
2004	35	NYM	129	528	455	121	21	0	20	54	0.266	0.362	0.444	0.806
2005	36	NYM	113	442	398	100	23	0	19	62	0.251	0.326	0.452	0.778
2006	37	SDP	126	439	399	113	19	1	22	68	0.283	0.342	0.501	0.843
2007	38	OAK	83	329	309	85	17	1	8	44	0.275	0.313	0.414	0.727

 

[superjohn]

Not in the HOF but Brady Anderson in 1996 is the most obvious case that’s rarely mentioned.

I was in the Yankee stadium bleachers and I've never seen an athlete get treated to the relentless barrage of heckling I saw Brady Anderson treated to in center field. This was when everyone knew he was on steroids and he was in Out Magazine. None of what was said and acted out can be said here.

Luis Gonzalez was another funny one.

 

[superjohn]

Piazza never had a significant jump in power. And he never had an injury that he'd need "extra" to recover from. Not sure why he gets this perception of steroid usage. Give me one stat or factual point you see below that would lead to that.

Season	Age	Team	G	PA	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
1992	23	LAD	21	74	69	16	3	0	1	7	0.232	0.284	0.319	0.603
1993	24	LAD	149	602	547	174	24	2	35	112	0.318	0.370	0.561	0.932
1994	25	LAD	107	441	405	129	18	0	24	92	0.319	0.370	0.541	0.910
1995	26	LAD	112	475	434	150	17	0	32	93	0.346	0.400	0.606	1.006
1996	27	LAD	148	631	547	184	16	0	36	105	0.336	0.422	0.563	0.985
1997	28	LAD	152	633	556	201	32	1	40	124	0.362	0.431	0.638	1.070
1998	29	3TM	151	626	561	184	38	1	32	111	0.328	0.390	0.570	0.960
1999	30	NYM	141	593	534	162	25	0	40	124	0.303	0.361	0.575	0.936
2000	31	NYM	136	545	482	156	26	0	38	113	0.324	0.398	0.614	1.012
2001	32	NYM	141	573	503	151	29	0	36	94	0.300	0.384	0.573	0.957
2002	33	NYM	135	541	478	134	23	2	33	98	0.280	0.359	0.544	0.903
2003	34	NYM	68	273	234	67	13	0	11	34	0.286	0.377	0.483	0.860
2004	35	NYM	129	528	455	121	21	0	20	54	0.266	0.362	0.444	0.806
2005	36	NYM	113	442	398	100	23	0	19	62	0.251	0.326	0.452	0.778
2006	37	SDP	126	439	399	113	19	1	22	68	0.283	0.342	0.501	0.843
2007	38	OAK	83	329	309	85	17	1	8	44	0.275	0.313	0.414	0.727

Piazza admitted to taking Andro which is a steroid which was legal at the time. It doesn't matter as most of them were taking roids.

 

[uh-no]

Piazza never had a significant jump in power. And he never had an injury that he'd need "extra" to recover from. Not sure why he gets this perception of steroid usage. Give me one stat or factual point you see below that would lead to that.

Season	Age	Team	G	PA	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
1992	23	LAD	21	74	69	16	3	0	1	7	0.232	0.284	0.319	0.603
1993	24	LAD	149	602	547	174	24	2	35	112	0.318	0.370	0.561	0.932
1994	25	LAD	107	441	405	129	18	0	24	92	0.319	0.370	0.541	0.910
1995	26	LAD	112	475	434	150	17	0	32	93	0.346	0.400	0.606	1.006
1996	27	LAD	148	631	547	184	16	0	36	105	0.336	0.422	0.563	0.985
1997	28	LAD	152	633	556	201	32	1	40	124	0.362	0.431	0.638	1.070
1998	29	3TM	151	626	561	184	38	1	32	111	0.328	0.390	0.570	0.960
1999	30	NYM	141	593	534	162	25	0	40	124	0.303	0.361	0.575	0.936
2000	31	NYM	136	545	482	156	26	0	38	113	0.324	0.398	0.614	1.012
2001	32	NYM	141	573	503	151	29	0	36	94	0.300	0.384	0.573	0.957
2002	33	NYM	135	541	478	134	23	2	33	98	0.280	0.359	0.544	0.903
2003	34	NYM	68	273	234	67	13	0	11	34	0.286	0.377	0.483	0.860
2004	35	NYM	129	528	455	121	21	0	20	54	0.266	0.362	0.444	0.806
2005	36	NYM	113	442	398	100	23	0	19	62	0.251	0.326	0.452	0.778
2006	37	SDP	126	439	399	113	19	1	22	68	0.283	0.342	0.501	0.843
2007	38	OAK	83	329	309	85	17	1	8	44	0.275	0.313	0.414	0.727

Bro had more acne than a teenager and an eyebrow ridge that would rival the alps. There's a reason you don't see players that look like that anymore.

 

[storrsroars]

Bro had more acne than a teenager and an eyebrow ridge that would rival the alps. There's a reason you don't see players that look like that anymore.

If eyebrow ridge is a criterion, then Johnny Damon must've been the most profific roid user in MLB history

 

[boog204]

Piazza never had a significant jump in power. And he never had an injury that he'd need "extra" to recover from. Not sure why he gets this perception of steroid usage. Give me one stat or factual point you see below that would lead to that.

Season	Age	Team	G	PA	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
1992	23	LAD	21	74	69	16	3	0	1	7	0.232	0.284	0.319	0.603
1993	24	LAD	149	602	547	174	24	2	35	112	0.318	0.370	0.561	0.932
1994	25	LAD	107	441	405	129	18	0	24	92	0.319	0.370	0.541	0.910
1995	26	LAD	112	475	434	150	17	0	32	93	0.346	0.400	0.606	1.006
1996	27	LAD	148	631	547	184	16	0	36	105	0.336	0.422	0.563	0.985
1997	28	LAD	152	633	556	201	32	1	40	124	0.362	0.431	0.638	1.070
1998	29	3TM	151	626	561	184	38	1	32	111	0.328	0.390	0.570	0.960
1999	30	NYM	141	593	534	162	25	0	40	124	0.303	0.361	0.575	0.936
2000	31	NYM	136	545	482	156	26	0	38	113	0.324	0.398	0.614	1.012
2001	32	NYM	141	573	503	151	29	0	36	94	0.300	0.384	0.573	0.957
2002	33	NYM	135	541	478	134	23	2	33	98	0.280	0.359	0.544	0.903
2003	34	NYM	68	273	234	67	13	0	11	34	0.286	0.377	0.483	0.860
2004	35	NYM	129	528	455	121	21	0	20	54	0.266	0.362	0.444	0.806
2005	36	NYM	113	442	398	100	23	0	19	62	0.251	0.326	0.452	0.778
2006	37	SDP	126	439	399	113	19	1	22	68	0.283	0.342	0.501	0.843
2007	38	OAK	83	329	309	85	17	1	8	44	0.275	0.313	0.414	0.727

He was a 260 hitter with 14 home runs in 470 ABs his first two minor league seasons. Then jumped to 29 in 448 ABs, then became a 350 hitter with 23 home runs in AA/AAA ball.

Obviously, guys improve and can gain power with age, development, etc. But, he was not a prospect in the least, who was drafted as a favor, who performed like a backup catcher before he exploded in power and hitting wise. That carried over throughout his career. There's also the LA factor, where lots of guys were juicing. Historically, it seems LA, SF/OAK, Tex, Tor, NY, and BOS were the catalyst cities. Or in most of those scenarios, it's where Canseco was.

 

[ColchVEGAS]

Nah.
Choices have consequences.

Did their actions enhance their individual ability to play the game, which is the basis of the HOF? Shoeless Joe allegedly accepted money to throw the World Series and still went out and raked. Pete Rose bet from '85-87, by most accounts. Although he says he never bet on games as a player. All his accomplishments up to '85 before the betting were HOF worthy.

 

[Deepster]

He was a 260 hitter with 14 home runs in 470 ABs his first two minor league seasons. Then jumped to 29 in 448 ABs, then became a 350 hitter with 23 home runs in AA/AAA ball.

Obviously, guys improve and can gain power with age, development, etc. But, he was not a prospect in the least, who was drafted as a favor, who performed like a backup catcher before he exploded in power and hitting wise. That carried over throughout his career. There's also the LA factor, where lots of guys were juicing. Historically, it seems LA, SF/OAK, Tex, Tor, NY, and BOS were the catalyst cities. Or in most of those scenarios, it's where Canseco was.

So he started taking steroids at 21, then took them every year for the next 11-12 years. And never topped 40 HRs. Because between 18-20 he had a power bump in the minors.

 

[Vowelguy]

. All his accomplishments up to '85 before the betting were HOF worthy.

I was a great guy until I murdered a bunch of folks on December 31st. So I should still win man of the year.

 

[boog204]

So he started taking steroids at 21, then took them every year for the next 11-12 years. And never topped 40 HRs. Because between 18-20 he had a power bump in the minors.

My point is he wasn’t a Palmeiro or other type who had a big power jump in the majors. There’s lots of smoke with him with many anonymous (lame I know) calling him out over the years. I truthfully believe Canseco when he said 75% of the league was on juice. I have little doubt about Piazza.

 

[UconnU]

I wonder what would happen an obvious steroid user who couldn’t get in solely bc of steroids became a legendary coach or executive. Would they still hold it against them? If they let them in bc of their coaching/managing would the hall mention their playing days?

 

[metsfan2323]

mike piazza is the obvious one.

Yeah, Piazza showed up to spring training dramatically shrunken when MLB started cracking down on steroids, same with Bagwell.

Pujols is another obvious user who will likely soon be in the HOF.

 

[jibsey]

My point is he wasn’t a Palmeiro or other type who had a big power jump in the majors. There’s lots of smoke with him with many anonymous (lame I know) calling him out over the years. I truthfully believe Canseco when he said 75% of the league was on juice. I have little doubt about Piazza.

That leaves 1-4 who weren’t. Need hard evidence on these players and that’s not happening.

 

[ColchVEGAS]

I was a great guy until I murdered a bunch of folks on December 31st. So I should still win man of the year.

Fair.

As a player only Rose did not gamble on sports. His gambling started when he became player/manager. My point was if looking at his playing career he is HOF. Induct him in as a player, not a manager. But again gambling on sports is not an individual performance enhancer.

When talking about the PED guys it gets tough. There were players that had HOF careers prior to using PEDs. While the PED users are being left out currently there are plenty of players in the HOF who were known to take greenies and doctor baseballs, amongst other things. I just find it silly that "gambling" is where the line is being drawn on clear cut HOF resumes.

Edit: Clarification. Betting on yourself or team to succeed is much different than betting against yourself or team.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Rose was a jerk, and a lot of people around baseball never forgave him for the dirty play in a freaking all-star game that effectively ruined Ray Fosse’s career. Many baseball people from that era really hated him.

And that mattered. Look at a guy like Bobby Riggs in tennis. He openly bet on his own matches, even in his prime, but everyone loved him and thought he was hilarious, so there were no consequences at all.