Pete Rose, 'Shoeless' Joe Jackson among players reinstated by MLB

[Waquoit]

I think all of the deserving PED guys need to be let in tomorrow. PED's were tacitly allowed during the period in question, the sudden 360 and retroactive enforcement by MLB was really rotten; befitting a man like Bud Selig. A used-car salesman. What's the reason for excluding these players? Cheating? Then why is Gaylord Perry in the HoF. He was the most successful cheater in the history of the game. He would have been absolutely nothing without cheating. He was caught several times and he admitted it. What more do you need? Why does he deserve the ultimate reward and not a superior pitcher like Clemens?

 

[cullaville]

Don't follow baseball but the Football and basketball hall of fames have way too many people in them. If they were true hall of fames they would only contain generational players. There wouldn't be multiple people admitted every year. There would be years when no one was admitted.

The baseball Hall of Fame is becoming (or already is) the Hall of Very Good and/or I played a long time so I have a lot of hits, home runs, rbi etc..

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

What justifies this thread having been posted in the Men's Basketball Forum (not even with "OT: " prefix in its Title), and without it having been moved already to the Pro Sports forum within the Non- UConn Sports area of The Boneyard?

 

[uconnblueinky]

Let everybody take as many steroids as they possibly can and let everybody into the hall of fame!! I want these guys so juiced up that they have to walk through doorways sideways . I want pitchers throwing 110 mph curveballs and batters hitting 800 foot dingers !!

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Ruth and mantle would be good arguments as it would have countered all their late night behaviors... but for all we know that might have made them go harder into the alcohol

Foxx claimed in an interview many years later that he hit 66 home runs in 1932. Unfortunately for him, back in those days any stats that you accrued in a game that was called because of rain, your stats were not officially recorded.

 

[boog204]

The baseball Hall of Fame is becoming (or already is) the Hall of Very Good and/or I played a long time so I have a lot of hits, home runs, rbi etc..

Conceptually, the HOF process, regardless of sport, is kind of weird. How is a guy not a hall of famer one year, but then is many years later? I mean, Michael Cooper? He retired in 1990, and not one person thought he was a Hall of Famer. 24 years later, he is? Great defender. Key piece on a legendary team. But really? I feel like the NFL is the only one that sort of does it right.

Or in the case of some, how are some not even remotely hall of famers, and then, because of connections and friends, after falling off the ballot, now in. Love Phil Rizzuto. His voice was part of my childhood watching PIX and everything else. But there is no way in hell that his career warranted the HOF as a player.

 

[navery12]

I think all of the deserving PED guys need to be let in tomorrow. PED's were tacitly allowed during the period in question, the sudden 360 and retroactive enforcement by MLB was really rotten; befitting a man like Bud Selig. A used-car salesman. What's the reason for excluding these players? Cheating? Then why is Gaylord Perry in the HoF. He was the most successful cheater in the history of the game. He would have been absolutely nothing without cheating. He was caught several times and he admitted it. What more do you need? Why does he deserve the ultimate reward and not a superior pitcher like Clemens?

And it's a slippery slope, players in the 70s and 80s used greenies openly in the clubhouse and now they're banned. Why are those guys allowed in?

 

[cullaville]

Conceptually, the HOF process, regardless of sport, is kind of weird. How is a guy not a hall of famer one year, but then is many years later? I mean, Michael Cooper? He retired in 1990, and not one person thought he was a Hall of Famer. 24 years later, he is? Great defender. Key piece on a legendary team. But really? I feel like the NFL is the only one that sort of does it right.

Or in the case of some, how are some not even remotely hall of famers, and then, because of connections and friends, after falling off the ballot, now in. Love Phil Rizzuto. His voice was part of my childhood watching PIX and everything else. But there is no way in hell that his career warranted the HOF as a player.

Agreed - it is not like the player got better after he retired.

Phil Rizutto - great guy, good ball player - not Hall of Fame,

Ten years on the ballot and if not voted in that's it There are too many ways to get elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame after not making it.

The baseball Hall of Fame needs to be for the truly GREAT, ELITE ball players.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Bottom line to me is the HOF is a museum, yes some symbolic meaning but that continues to erode with various admissions, baseball stats are nowhere near as meaningful any more and various other subjective issues. Lifetime ban eligible after death seems more than enough punishment for gambling (which is now way more popular/acceptable). Sure there's an element of generating stories, publicity and interest but that's kind of the purpose of the sport, the museum and/or baseball governance - increase interest in baseball.

If nothing else the new debate over posthumous HOF eligibility is more interesting than the tired debate over the Pete Rose ban that had persisted since the 80's!

 

[cwh20]

I really don’t care one way or another, but why wait until the guy is dead?

Feels a little cowardly.

I felt right after he retired that Rose shouldn’t get in while alive but definitely after death. He was too good to keep out of Cooperstown. He bet on baseball which was bad but bigger than that he kept lying about it. He would have made a ton more money if elected into the Hall while alive from sports memorabilia and such and I feel that loss of revenue should cover his debt to baseball. He was great and always gave the game his all on the field which I admire. He certainly gets in based on his career. I agree with the caveat that if elected that the betting on baseball should be included on his plaque.

 

[cullaville]

Bottom line to me is the HOF is a museum, yes some symbolic meaning but that continues to erode with various admissions, baseball stats are nowhere near as meaningful any more and various other subjective issues. Lifetime ban eligible after death seems more than enough punishment for gambling (which is now way more popular/acceptable). Sure there's an element of generating stories, publicity and interest but that's kind of the purpose of the sport, the museum and/or baseball governance - increase interest in baseball.

If nothing else the new debate over posthumous HOF eligibility is more interesting than the tired debate over the Pete Rose ban that had persisted since the 80's!

Yes the Baseball hall of Fame is a museum. I think the first thing people think about is th epalyers elected to the Hall of Fame.

There can be two components to the Hall in Cooperstown , the area where the greats, elites are honored and the museum part where great moments in baseball history can be honored. For example I believe there is a section that recalls every no hitter thrown. Thus players who achieve the rare feat of a no hitter are celebrated get their recognition in Cooperstown.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Agreed - it is not like the player got better after he retired.

Phil Rizutto - great guy, good ball player - not Hall of Fame,

Ten years on the ballot and if not voted in that's it There are too many ways to get elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame after not making it.

The baseball Hall of Fame needs to be for the truly GREAT, ELITE ball players.

Holy Cow!!!! You Huckleberry!!!

 

[storrsroars]

Holy Cow!!!! You Huckleberry!!!

"It's 2-2 bottom of the ninth, bases loaded. Speaking of loaded, I had a cannoli at Mario's last night that was absolutely stuffed. I tell ya, Mario has the best cannoli cream in town. And there's a soft grounder that gets past the drawn in infield and that's the game!"

 

[cullaville]

Holy Cow!!!! You Huckleberry!!!

OK, here we go, we got a real pressure cooker going here,
Two down, nobody on, no score, bottom of the ninth,
There's the windup, and there it is, a line shot up the middle,
Look at him go. This boy can really fly! He's rounding first and really
turning it on now, he's not letting up at all, he's gonna try for
second; the ball is bobbled out in center, and here comes the
throw, and what a throw! He's gonna slide in head first, here he
comes, he's out! No, wait, safe-safe at second base, this kid
really makes things happen out there. Batter steps up to the
plate, here's the pitch-he's going, and what a jump he's got,
he's trying for third, here's the throw, it's in the dirt-safe at
third! Holy cow, stolen base! He's taking a pretty big lead out
there, almost daring him to try and pick him off. The pitcher
glances over, winds up, and it's bunted, bunted down the third
base line, the suicide squeeze is on! Here he comes, squeeze
play, it's gonna be close, holy cow, I think he's gonna make it!

 

[Waquoit]

And it's a slippery slope, players in the 70s and 80s used greenies openly in the clubhouse and now they're banned. Why are those guys allowed in?

I agree. I've used that argument in the past. Whether greenies helped or not, they players thought they did. They took them to get an edge.

 

[Fishy]

I agree. I've used that argument in the past. Whether greenies helped or not, they players thought they did. They took them to get an edge.

And it's a slippery slope, players in the 70s and 80s used greenies openly in the clubhouse and now they're banned. Why are those guys allowed in?

This dog gets dragged out whenever someone wants to wave away steroids.

First, MLB didn’t have a rule against them and second, whatever they were, I think the players who took drugs so powerful that they changed their shape of their GD skulls were operating on a much different plane.

 

[Waquoit]

This dog gets dragged out whenever someone wants to wave away steroids.

Why do you wave away that MLB was good with roids, until they weren't?

 

[superjohn]

Ruth and mantle would be good arguments as it would have countered all their late night behaviors... but for all we know that might have made them go harder into the alcohol

My dad had several stories about Mickey Mantle and Billy Martin. My dad grew up in Jersey City and his cousin who was much older owned a home right by Mantle in River Edge, NJ. Mantle and Billy Martin would come back to the house hammered and Billy Martin would sleep it off in his car because Mantle's wife wouldn't let him in the house, he would sneak into the basement to shower. My dad and my uncle played catch with Mantle as did other kids in the neighborhood.

Things go full circle and it always revolved around drinking. Fast forward and my dad is an adult who is waiting for a friend in a NYC bar and the guy who sits down next to him at the bar and buys him a beer is Billy Martin and they shoot the breeze over a couple of rounds.

Years after that my dad is working in Waterbury, CT and Mickey Mantle is in town for a function at the Aqua Turf club nearby and Mantle is at a Waterbury bar and he's so drunk cops had to basically carry him out of the bar, put him in the back of their car and take him to his hotel. If memory serves me right I don't think my dad was at the bar that night, his friends were there and told him what happened.

Years after that my dad's friend who made it huge on Wall Street had Mantle flown into Litchfield, CT on his helicopter to play a round of golf with them. Mantle was hammered and my dad said it was really sad. This was his favorite athlete of all-time, someone he idolized and played catch with as a kid out on the street and now he was a bad alcoholic who would show up anywhere for a few bucks and an open bar.

 

[Deepster]

My dad had several stories about Mickey Mantle and Billy Martin. My dad grew up in Jersey City and his cousin who was much older owned a home right by Mantle in River Edge, NJ. Mantle and Billy Martin would come back to the house hammered and Billy Martin would sleep it off in his car because Mantle's wife wouldn't let him in the house, he would sneak into the basement to shower. My dad and my uncle played catch with Mantle as did other kids in the neighborhood.

Things go full circle and it always revolved around drinking. Fast forward and my dad is an adult who is waiting for a friend in a NYC bar and the guy who sits down next to him at the bar and buys him a beer is Billy Martin and they shoot the breeze over a couple of rounds.

Years after that my dad is working in Waterbury, CT and Mickey Mantle is in town for a function at the Aqua Turf club nearby and Mantle is at a Waterbury bar and he's so drunk cops had to basically carry him out of the bar, put him in the back of their car and take him to his hotel. If memory serves me right I don't think my dad was at the bar that night, his friends were there and told him what happened.

Years after that my dad's friend who made it huge on Wall Street had Mantle flown into Litchfield, CT on his helicopter to play a round of golf with them. Mantle was hammered and my dad said it was really sad. This was his favorite athlete of all-time, someone he idolized and played catch with as a kid out on the street and now he was a bad alcoholic who would show up anywhere for a few bucks and an open bar.

Great stories. I read an article once about Mantle's later years and I'll never forget, it said something like "He loved bars because the dim lighting made him look like the young Mick from back in the day". I thought that was so sad.

 

[mauconnfan]

There should be a Hall of Shame wing for Rose, Clemen's, etc.

Yep and Papi, Bagwell, Piazza, Pudge and a few more I’m sure.

 

[superjohn]

Great stories. I read an article once about Mantle's later years and I'll never forget, it said something like "He loved bars because the dim lighting made him look like the young Mick from back in the day". I thought that was so sad.

That is sad.

Way before my time but I think he's probably the most talented player of all-time. It's wild how everything surrounding him is what he could've been when he still had one of the best careers ever.

Josh Hamilton is the closest thing to a modern day Mantle in terms of what could've been and sadly we didn't get to see nearly enough of him.

 

[dennismenace]

People protect rose because they're protecting their own degenerate side of themselves. Same with the roid users.

The Jungian "Shadow"!!

 

[dennismenace]

Yes, the Rose protection over the years has been bizarre - as has his continual overratedness, IMO, as the HOF BS persisted. He is obviously a HOF'er. But there have been many people who claim he's a top 10-20 player all-time, and hitting a ton of singles does not put you in that category. Baseball Reference has his war as the 66th highest all time, around guys like Robin Yount and Molitor, with Rose having 3000 additional plate appearances.

I could not understand that either. In his favor he played very hard and thus "Charley Hustle." He could also be the described as the epitome of a winning player because he gave his all out there on the field. But he could have been labeled a banjo hitter or punch and judy hitter had it not been for the media hype that surrounded him; especially the likes of Garagiola or Cosell.
So in many respects the on field teammate
who set the ultimate example but not comparable to talent and skills of many other hall of famers. Off field is another story. Gambling addiction like other forms of addiction often leads people to do things they would otherwise not do.

 

[dennismenace]

He was a big proponent years ago for MORE throwing on off days and less babying of starter's arms. Felt the coddling was making them weaker and more susceptible to injury. The math guys eventually pushed him into the dark on that, but I'm not sure he was 100% off the mark.

I think the arm problems most often come from the breaking ball (curves but especially sliders). Still, he was so unique that he is in a class by himself. Somewhat analogous to Secretariat winning the Preakness by 26-27 lengths. Autopsy of Secretariat revealed an abnormally large heart:
Secretariat, the legendary racehorse, is famous for many reasons, including his exceptionally large heart.

Here's what's known about Secretariat's heart:

• Size: After Secretariat's death in 1989, an autopsy revealed that his heart weighed an estimated 22 pounds.
• Comparison to average: This was significantly larger than the average Thoroughbred heart, which typically weighs around 8.5 pounds.
• Significance: The large heart is believed to have contributed to Secretariat's exceptional racing ability by allowing him to pump more blood and oxygen throughout his body.
• Condition: Despite its size, the veterinarian who performed the necropsy noted that Secretariat's heart was in perfect condition, with no signs of pathological enlargement.

In conclusion: Secretariat's heart was a remarkable organ, much larger than average and likely a key factor in his extraordinary racing success.

 

[uh-no]

I think all of the deserving PED guys need to be let in tomorrow. PED's were tacitly allowed during the period in question, the sudden 360 and retroactive enforcement by MLB was really rotten; befitting a man like Bud Selig. A used-car salesman. What's the reason for excluding these players? Cheating? Then why is Gaylord Perry in the HoF. He was the most successful cheater in the history of the game. He would have been absolutely nothing without cheating. He was caught several times and he admitted it. What more do you need? Why does he deserve the ultimate reward and not a superior pitcher like Clemens?

Nobody in the MLB is stopping these guys from being in the HoF. The writers are the voters and the ones doing the grandstanding. The writers are the same ones who didn't need roids to stay interested in the sport, and probably think it a general stain on the game.