Pete Rose, 'Shoeless' Joe Jackson among players reinstated by MLB

[cullaville]

Bottom line to me is the HOF is a museum, yes some symbolic meaning but that continues to erode with various admissions, baseball stats are nowhere near as meaningful any more and various other subjective issues. Lifetime ban eligible after death seems more than enough punishment for gambling (which is now way more popular/acceptable). Sure there's an element of generating stories, publicity and interest but that's kind of the purpose of the sport, the museum and/or baseball governance - increase interest in baseball.

If nothing else the new debate over posthumous HOF eligibility is more interesting than the tired debate over the Pete Rose ban that had persisted since the 80's!

Yes the Baseball hall of Fame is a museum. I think the first thing people think about is th epalyers elected to the Hall of Fame.

There can be two components to the Hall in Cooperstown , the area where the greats, elites are honored and the museum part where great moments in baseball history can be honored. For example I believe there is a section that recalls every no hitter thrown. Thus players who achieve the rare feat of a no hitter are celebrated get their recognition in Cooperstown.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Agreed - it is not like the player got better after he retired.

Phil Rizutto - great guy, good ball player - not Hall of Fame,

Ten years on the ballot and if not voted in that's it There are too many ways to get elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame after not making it.

The baseball Hall of Fame needs to be for the truly GREAT, ELITE ball players.

Holy Cow!!!! You Huckleberry!!!

 

[storrsroars]

Holy Cow!!!! You Huckleberry!!!

"It's 2-2 bottom of the ninth, bases loaded. Speaking of loaded, I had a cannoli at Mario's last night that was absolutely stuffed. I tell ya, Mario has the best cannoli cream in town. And there's a soft grounder that gets past the drawn in infield and that's the game!"

 

[cullaville]

Holy Cow!!!! You Huckleberry!!!

OK, here we go, we got a real pressure cooker going here,
Two down, nobody on, no score, bottom of the ninth,
There's the windup, and there it is, a line shot up the middle,
Look at him go. This boy can really fly! He's rounding first and really
turning it on now, he's not letting up at all, he's gonna try for
second; the ball is bobbled out in center, and here comes the
throw, and what a throw! He's gonna slide in head first, here he
comes, he's out! No, wait, safe-safe at second base, this kid
really makes things happen out there. Batter steps up to the
plate, here's the pitch-he's going, and what a jump he's got,
he's trying for third, here's the throw, it's in the dirt-safe at
third! Holy cow, stolen base! He's taking a pretty big lead out
there, almost daring him to try and pick him off. The pitcher
glances over, winds up, and it's bunted, bunted down the third
base line, the suicide squeeze is on! Here he comes, squeeze
play, it's gonna be close, holy cow, I think he's gonna make it!

 

[Waquoit]

And it's a slippery slope, players in the 70s and 80s used greenies openly in the clubhouse and now they're banned. Why are those guys allowed in?

I agree. I've used that argument in the past. Whether greenies helped or not, they players thought they did. They took them to get an edge.

 

[Fishy]

I agree. I've used that argument in the past. Whether greenies helped or not, they players thought they did. They took them to get an edge.

And it's a slippery slope, players in the 70s and 80s used greenies openly in the clubhouse and now they're banned. Why are those guys allowed in?

This dog gets dragged out whenever someone wants to wave away steroids.

First, MLB didn’t have a rule against them and second, whatever they were, I think the players who took drugs so powerful that they changed their shape of their GD skulls were operating on a much different plane.

 

[Waquoit]

This dog gets dragged out whenever someone wants to wave away steroids.

Why do you wave away that MLB was good with roids, until they weren't?

 

[superjohn]

Ruth and mantle would be good arguments as it would have countered all their late night behaviors... but for all we know that might have made them go harder into the alcohol

My dad had several stories about Mickey Mantle and Billy Martin. My dad grew up in Jersey City and his cousin who was much older owned a home right by Mantle in River Edge, NJ. Mantle and Billy Martin would come back to the house hammered and Billy Martin would sleep it off in his car because Mantle's wife wouldn't let him in the house, he would sneak into the basement to shower. My dad and my uncle played catch with Mantle as did other kids in the neighborhood.

Things go full circle and it always revolved around drinking. Fast forward and my dad is an adult who is waiting for a friend in a NYC bar and the guy who sits down next to him at the bar and buys him a beer is Billy Martin and they shoot the breeze over a couple of rounds.

Years after that my dad is working in Waterbury, CT and Mickey Mantle is in town for a function at the Aqua Turf club nearby and Mantle is at a Waterbury bar and he's so drunk cops had to basically carry him out of the bar, put him in the back of their car and take him to his hotel. If memory serves me right I don't think my dad was at the bar that night, his friends were there and told him what happened.

Years after that my dad's friend who made it huge on Wall Street had Mantle flown into Litchfield, CT on his helicopter to play a round of golf with them. Mantle was hammered and my dad said it was really sad. This was his favorite athlete of all-time, someone he idolized and played catch with as a kid out on the street and now he was a bad alcoholic who would show up anywhere for a few bucks and an open bar.

 

[Deepster]

My dad had several stories about Mickey Mantle and Billy Martin. My dad grew up in Jersey City and his cousin who was much older owned a home right by Mantle in River Edge, NJ. Mantle and Billy Martin would come back to the house hammered and Billy Martin would sleep it off in his car because Mantle's wife wouldn't let him in the house, he would sneak into the basement to shower. My dad and my uncle played catch with Mantle as did other kids in the neighborhood.

Things go full circle and it always revolved around drinking. Fast forward and my dad is an adult who is waiting for a friend in a NYC bar and the guy who sits down next to him at the bar and buys him a beer is Billy Martin and they shoot the breeze over a couple of rounds.

Years after that my dad is working in Waterbury, CT and Mickey Mantle is in town for a function at the Aqua Turf club nearby and Mantle is at a Waterbury bar and he's so drunk cops had to basically carry him out of the bar, put him in the back of their car and take him to his hotel. If memory serves me right I don't think my dad was at the bar that night, his friends were there and told him what happened.

Years after that my dad's friend who made it huge on Wall Street had Mantle flown into Litchfield, CT on his helicopter to play a round of golf with them. Mantle was hammered and my dad said it was really sad. This was his favorite athlete of all-time, someone he idolized and played catch with as a kid out on the street and now he was a bad alcoholic who would show up anywhere for a few bucks and an open bar.

Great stories. I read an article once about Mantle's later years and I'll never forget, it said something like "He loved bars because the dim lighting made him look like the young Mick from back in the day". I thought that was so sad.

 

[mauconnfan]

There should be a Hall of Shame wing for Rose, Clemen's, etc.

Yep and Papi, Bagwell, Piazza, Pudge and a few more I’m sure.

 

[superjohn]

Great stories. I read an article once about Mantle's later years and I'll never forget, it said something like "He loved bars because the dim lighting made him look like the young Mick from back in the day". I thought that was so sad.

That is sad.

Way before my time but I think he's probably the most talented player of all-time. It's wild how everything surrounding him is what he could've been when he still had one of the best careers ever.

Josh Hamilton is the closest thing to a modern day Mantle in terms of what could've been and sadly we didn't get to see nearly enough of him.

 

[dennismenace]

People protect rose because they're protecting their own degenerate side of themselves. Same with the roid users.

The Jungian "Shadow"!!

 

[dennismenace]

Yes, the Rose protection over the years has been bizarre - as has his continual overratedness, IMO, as the HOF BS persisted. He is obviously a HOF'er. But there have been many people who claim he's a top 10-20 player all-time, and hitting a ton of singles does not put you in that category. Baseball Reference has his war as the 66th highest all time, around guys like Robin Yount and Molitor, with Rose having 3000 additional plate appearances.

I could not understand that either. In his favor he played very hard and thus "Charley Hustle." He could also be the described as the epitome of a winning player because he gave his all out there on the field. But he could have been labeled a banjo hitter or punch and judy hitter had it not been for the media hype that surrounded him; especially the likes of Garagiola or Cosell.
So in many respects the on field teammate
who set the ultimate example but not comparable to talent and skills of many other hall of famers. Off field is another story. Gambling addiction like other forms of addiction often leads people to do things they would otherwise not do.

 

[dennismenace]

He was a big proponent years ago for MORE throwing on off days and less babying of starter's arms. Felt the coddling was making them weaker and more susceptible to injury. The math guys eventually pushed him into the dark on that, but I'm not sure he was 100% off the mark.

I think the arm problems most often come from the breaking ball (curves but especially sliders). Still, he was so unique that he is in a class by himself. Somewhat analogous to Secretariat winning the Preakness by 26-27 lengths. Autopsy of Secretariat revealed an abnormally large heart:
Secretariat, the legendary racehorse, is famous for many reasons, including his exceptionally large heart.

Here's what's known about Secretariat's heart:

• Size: After Secretariat's death in 1989, an autopsy revealed that his heart weighed an estimated 22 pounds.
• Comparison to average: This was significantly larger than the average Thoroughbred heart, which typically weighs around 8.5 pounds.
• Significance: The large heart is believed to have contributed to Secretariat's exceptional racing ability by allowing him to pump more blood and oxygen throughout his body.
• Condition: Despite its size, the veterinarian who performed the necropsy noted that Secretariat's heart was in perfect condition, with no signs of pathological enlargement.

In conclusion: Secretariat's heart was a remarkable organ, much larger than average and likely a key factor in his extraordinary racing success.

 

[uh-no]

I think all of the deserving PED guys need to be let in tomorrow. PED's were tacitly allowed during the period in question, the sudden 360 and retroactive enforcement by MLB was really rotten; befitting a man like Bud Selig. A used-car salesman. What's the reason for excluding these players? Cheating? Then why is Gaylord Perry in the HoF. He was the most successful cheater in the history of the game. He would have been absolutely nothing without cheating. He was caught several times and he admitted it. What more do you need? Why does he deserve the ultimate reward and not a superior pitcher like Clemens?

Nobody in the MLB is stopping these guys from being in the HoF. The writers are the voters and the ones doing the grandstanding. The writers are the same ones who didn't need roids to stay interested in the sport, and probably think it a general stain on the game.

 

[mauconnfan]

Nobody in the MLB is stopping these guys from being in the HoF. The writers are the voters and the ones doing the grandstanding. The writers are the same ones who didn't need roids to stay interested in the sport, and probably think it a general stain on the game.

But the writers are then very inconsistent in their thoughts. After all they have already allowed other roid users in the HOF as we know. I mean allowing Papi in is because he was nice and smiled at the writers where Bonds wasn’t is all you need to know about these buffoons. I mean Bonds of all the users was going to be a HOFer no matter if he needled up or not others not so much. So let one in let them all in but these guys shouldn’t even have votes.

 

[jibsey]

My dad had several stories about Mickey Mantle and Billy Martin. My dad grew up in Jersey City and his cousin who was much older owned a home right by Mantle in River Edge, NJ. Mantle and Billy Martin would come back to the house hammered and Billy Martin would sleep it off in his car because Mantle's wife wouldn't let him in the house, he would sneak into the basement to shower. My dad and my uncle played catch with Mantle as did other kids in the neighborhood.

Things go full circle and it always revolved around drinking. Fast forward and my dad is an adult who is waiting for a friend in a NYC bar and the guy who sits down next to him at the bar and buys him a beer is Billy Martin and they shoot the breeze over a couple of rounds.

Years after that my dad is working in Waterbury, CT and Mickey Mantle is in town for a function at the Aqua Turf club nearby and Mantle is at a Waterbury bar and he's so drunk cops had to basically carry him out of the bar, put him in the back of their car and take him to his hotel. If memory serves me right I don't think my dad was at the bar that night, his friends were there and told him what happened.

Years after that my dad's friend who made it huge on Wall Street had Mantle flown into Litchfield, CT on his helicopter to play a round of golf with them. Mantle was hammered and my dad said it was really sad. This was his favorite athlete of all-time, someone he idolized and played catch with as a kid out on the street and now he was a bad alcoholic who would show up anywhere for a few bucks and an open bar.

I don’t think anyone can truly understand the fame of Mickey Mantle, ok maybe Michael Jordan.
In the 1950’s and early 60’s he was a baseball God.
Blond hair, blue eyed, he invented the tape measure home run. 565 feet. Nearly hit it out of the Stadium hitting the facade.
He never understood it from his background. And none of the drinking or crude behavior ever surfaced to us kids or anyone for that matter.

 

[temery]

But the writers are then very inconsistent in their thoughts. After all they have already allowed other roid users in the HOF as we know. I mean allowing Papi in is because he was nice and smiled at the writers where Bonds wasn’t is all you need to know about these buffoons. I mean Bonds of all the users was going to be a HOFer no matter if he needled up or not others not so much. So let one in let them all in but these guys shouldn’t even have votes.

I know it's gonna be a good day when my morning starts with a Yankees fan whining about a Red Sox player's success.

Papi had HoF numbers and was well liked. Bonds had HoF numbers, but was a first class jerk.

Worth noting: I believe Barry Bonds should get in to the Hall of Fame eventually. Put him in the cheater's wing.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

He was a big proponent years ago for MORE throwing on off days and less babying of starter's arms. Felt the coddling was making them weaker and more susceptible to injury. The math guys eventually pushed him into the dark on that, but I'm not sure he was 100% off the mark.

Bingo.

I remember a few years back a Baseball reporter (I think it was Kurkjian) talking about an early assignment (still 1980's) where he needed to interview Ryan after the game (Ryan was starting pitcher). He said "Ryan threw around 200 pitches, but I had to interview him while he spent 45 minutes on an excercise bike after the game ended."

Ryan believed in working on the legs regularly and on proper mechanics while pitching. He said many times that a fastball with proper mechanics takes less out of the arm than any other pitch.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

"It's 2-2 bottom of the ninth, bases loaded. Speaking of loaded, I had a cannoli at Mario's last night that was absolutely stuffed. I tell ya, Mario has the best cannoli cream in town. And there's a soft grounder that gets past the drawn in infield and that's the game!"

“……and my daughter Penny wants to have her Wedding reception there”.

 

[uh-no]

But the writers are then very inconsistent in their thoughts. After all they have already allowed other roid users in the HOF as we know. I mean allowing Papi in is because he was nice and smiled at the writers where Bonds wasn’t is all you need to know about these buffoons. I mean Bonds of all the users was going to be a HOFer no matter if he needled up or not others not so much. So let one in let them all in but these guys shouldn’t even have votes.

right...i'm not saying they're not hypocrites....but I can also see why it is how it is, and MLB itself is not the culprit....it can't force the writers to do one thing or the other.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

My dad had several stories about Mickey Mantle and Billy Martin. My dad grew up in Jersey City and his cousin who was much older owned a home right by Mantle in River Edge, NJ. Mantle and Billy Martin would come back to the house hammered and Billy Martin would sleep it off in his car because Mantle's wife wouldn't let him in the house, he would sneak into the basement to shower. My dad and my uncle played catch with Mantle as did other kids in the neighborhood.

Things go full circle and it always revolved around drinking. Fast forward and my dad is an adult who is waiting for a friend in a NYC bar and the guy who sits down next to him at the bar and buys him a beer is Billy Martin and they shoot the breeze over a couple of rounds.

Years after that my dad is working in Waterbury, CT and Mickey Mantle is in town for a function at the Aqua Turf club nearby and Mantle is at a Waterbury bar and he's so drunk cops had to basically carry him out of the bar, put him in the back of their car and take him to his hotel. If memory serves me right I don't think my dad was at the bar that night, his friends were there and told him what happened.

Years after that my dad's friend who made it huge on Wall Street had Mantle flown into Litchfield, CT on his helicopter to play a round of golf with them. Mantle was hammered and my dad said it was really sad. This was his favorite athlete of all-time, someone he idolized and played catch with as a kid out on the street and now he was a bad alcoholic who would show up anywhere for a few bucks and an open bar.

The true story about Mantle taking Martin hunting for the first time in upstate New York on a farmer friends spread is a classic.

They drive upstate to the farmers place, and it’s late, about 9pm. They pull in and Mantle says to Billy “wait here I’ll walk up and tell him we’re here”. Mantle rings the doorbell and they exchanged pleasantries but the farmer asks Mantle to do him a favor, the farmer had a sick horse that’s on it’s last legs and is in some pain, he asks Mantle to go up to the barn and put the horse out of it’s misery, the farmer doesn’t have the heart to do it himself. So Mantle goes back to the car to get his rifle, and says to Martin….”that SOB farmer just told me we can’t hunt because the neighbors are complaining, well I’ll show him”……so Mantle goes up to the barn and shoots the horse “boom” “boom”. As he’s walking back to the farmers front door to tell him the deed is in done, he hear’s “boom boom boom boom” and he sees Martin running back to the car. Martin says “let’s get outta here I just shot two of his cows too.”

Mantle of course paid the farmer for the mistake. Lol

 

[Lafayette]

Bingo.

I remember a few years back a Baseball reporter (I think it was Kurkjian) talking about an early assignment (still 1980's) where he needed to interview Ryan after the game (Ryan was starting pitcher). He said "Ryan threw around 200 pitches, but I had to interview him while he spent 45 minutes on an excercise bike after the game ended."

Ryan believed in working on the legs regularly and on proper mechanics while pitching. He said many times that a fastball with proper mechanics takes less out of the arm than any other pitch.

Ryan is my all time favorite baseball player. Signed jerseys from the Angels, Rockets, and Rangers.

Best quotes about him:

• Reggie Jackson: "Ryan is the only guy who puts fear in me. Not because he can get you out but because he can kill you."
• Norm Cash (struck out 3x already, comes to plate with a table leg): ""I can't hit him anyway".

 

[mauconnfan]

I know it's gonna be a good day when my morning starts with a Yankees fan whining about a Red Sox player's success.

Papi had HoF numbers and was well liked. Bonds had HoF numbers, but was a first class jerk.

Worth noting: I believe Barry Bonds should get in to the Hall of Fame eventually. Put him in the cheater's wing.

I’m doing nothing but stating facts sir and if you’re ignorant enough to believe he’s not on the Mitchell report good for you. No whining here but he has less right to be in the Hall than Barry who already was a great player prior to diving in. He wasn’t a .270 hitter averaging about 17 and 60 a year before meeting Manny Ramirez. Pretty simple Tom follow the arrows.

And by the way the Yankees had their own success marred by cheating I will admit this for sure.

 

[temery]

I’m doing nothing but stating facts sir and if you’re ignorant enough to believe he’s not on the Mitchell report good for you. No whining here but he has less right to be in the Hall than Barry who already was a great player prior to diving in. He wasn’t a .270 hitter averaging about 17 and 60 a year before meeting Manny Ramirez. Pretty simple Tom follow the arrows.

And by the way the Yankees had their own success marred by cheating I will admit this for sure.

You didn't state one single fact. Your post was 100% opinion. Maybe if bond was just a little bit nicer, and a better human being...

 

[Lafayette]

You didn't state one single fact. Your post was 100% opinion. Maybe if bond was just a little bit nicer, and a better human being...

Fair point on fact vs opinion, but on "was just a little bit nicer..." - they said they same things about Ted Williams.

 

[dennismenace]

I don’t think anyone can truly understand the fame of Mickey Mantle, ok maybe Michael Jordan.
In the 1950’s and early 60’s he was a baseball God.
Blond hair, blue eyed, he invented the tape measure home run. 565 feet. Nearly hit it out of the Stadium hitting the facade.
He never understood it from his background. And none of the drinking or crude behavior ever surfaced to us kids or anyone for that matter.

Also loved by his teammates because he was in constant pain from osteomylitis from high school as well as knee injuries and never begged out. His father was a minor league player and did not want him to play football in HS. But football is a religion in Oklahoma and that is when he injured his leg and developed the osteo (inflamation of the marrow of the bone - incurable). He pretty much was in pain throughout his career.

 

[dennismenace]

And it's a slippery slope, players in the 70s and 80s used greenies openly in the clubhouse and now they're banned. Why are those guys allowed in?

That right! "Bennies (benzedrene) were put out on a table by the clubhouse guys before every game. A favorite of the test taking "all nighters" in college.

 

[StllH8L8ner]

I’m doing nothing but stating facts sir and if you’re ignorant enough to believe he’s not on the Mitchell report good for you. No whining here but he has less right to be in the Hall than Barry who already was a great player prior to diving in. He wasn’t a .270 hitter averaging about 17 and 60 a year before meeting Manny Ramirez. Pretty simple Tom follow the arrows.

And by the way the Yankees had their own success marred by cheating I will admit this for sure.

Don’t even bother man, Sox fans are delusional sometimes esp when it comes to their hero Papi. You can count on one hand how many MLB players truly raked into their late 30’s/early 40’s but only one was clean apparently. The tea leaves are all there but it’s simply denial of the obvious. Like saying college players aren’t being paid directly. I don’t care who gets in as long as A-Rod never does…

 

[boog204]

Also loved by his teammates because he was in constant pain from osteomylitis from high school as well as knee injuries and never begged out. His father was a minor league player and did not want him to play football in HS. But football is a religion in Oklahoma and that is when he injured his leg and developed the osteo (inflamation of the marrow of the bone - incurable). He pretty much was in pain throughout his career.

Kind of nuts to think that Mantle tore his ACL and other stuff on that drain in 1951. But he never had the ACL repaired. So he played his entire career with a torn ACL. Ridiculous the #'s he put up given all of the injuries - self-inflicted or otherwise.