OT: Pats 0-16

[UConn990411]

I'm pretty sure every Boston sports thread on this board is started by New York fans.

 

[intlzncster]

And the problem with the receivers was substantially due to Edelman being out. His worth to this team as a slot receiver was on full display last night.
Without him creating instant 5-8 yard routes for Brady, they were forced to look vertical - don't blame play calling - you can only do so much with what you have. Amendola did his best, but he's no JE11.

There's not just deep routes and 5-8 chain moving options in the playbook tho. There was no need to go all deep so often. They should have been running more intermediate routes to Hogan, screen passes to the halfbacks, etc Actually, thinking about it, they should have involved the backs waaay more in the passing game than they did. There was opportunity there. Run two back sets with another broke out wide as a receiver. Put Cooks in the slot and let him work. Or put Hogan in there for different looks. If they are playing pretty good blanket coverage (they were), run some pick routes with Hogan and Gronk. Whatever, there's infinite possibilities.

Even more important, There's only maybe 2-3 teams that could play that one on one matcup D on Gronk, and that was all because of Eric Berry. Usually it takes 2-3 guys. They got away with one.

Edeleman being out is huge, of that there isn't any doubt. But Brady getting familiar with all his new pieces (Cook, Allen, Dorsett, Burkhead, Gillislee, etc) will help things. That and McDaniel's doing the same.

They are probably pissed they cut Austin Carr about now. Didn't like it at the time.

Counting the Pats out after 1 game is foolish, of course, but perceptive Pat fans have to be concerned. The defense was awful - if it wasn't for that first fumble, the Chiefs might have hung 50 on them. Ouch.

Why? If they got that first 4 and 1, and scored, that might have been a different game.

2014 they got absolutely demolished by the Chiefs, then came out and laid a can of whoop@ss on the rest of the schedule.

Do you want to win? Sure. Do losses suck? Yep. I mean, I know they stunk. But it's along loooong season. And there's gonna be a few new faces on D if Bill's track record holds.

Pre season losses up front on D def hurt this team tho (Ninko retiring, McClellin IR, Freeney IR, Rivers IR, Ealy a bust).

All that written, my guess is this - the Chiefs are a top 3 team this year, and they are going to contend for a SB. Hunt was a beast. The rookie WR was really good. The core is there. The Achilles tear may be the difference between SB and close, however. What a shame. Love that coach. Class guy.

No way. Top 10 sure, but I don't see top 3 at all. Alex Smith will always limit the ceiling in big games, despite how he looked last night. And now with Berry out, forget it. The Chiefs are a little like the Colts of old, who could win regular season games all day long, but struggled more in the big moments. (no i'm not comparing defenses)

 

[Mr. French]

I'm a Bills fan, and we're in our 15th "transition phase" so I certainly can't talk junk unless we're talking before 2000 ...

But even when I know they'll smoke us it's fun watching them burn first night.

It doesn't happen nearly enough for our liking.

We're all gearing up to start the Nathan Peterman era and drink heavily watching the tank a thon Sunday at the Ralph vs. NYJ.

If we're favored by a bunch, they must really stink this year.

 

[intlzncster]

We're all gearing up to start the Nathan Peterman era and drink heavily watching the tank a thon Sunday at the Ralph vs. NYJ.

I had to look him up lol

 

[Devland]

Pats played like crap. Happens not irregularly at the start of most seasons. We'll see. With injuries retirements and turnover, I wasn't quite sold on the D prior to the start. It usually takes our D a while anyway.

Poor Chiefs tho. Got a big road win and then lose Eric Berry for the season with a ruptured achilles. Huge blow. Best I've ever seen anyone matchup cover Gronk.

Remember the 2014 season? The Pats lost to Miami week one and were blown out 41-14 by the Chiefs in week four. Some fans were asking for Brady to be replaced and pundits were saying the Patriots run was over. Well, they won a Super Bowl that season. They seem to be able figure things out as the season goes. They'll be fine.

 

[mauconnfan]

There was too much overreact in that post.

They've seemed to be a trendy pick the last few years. I don't buy it. Especially without Berry. He's the key to that defense. Was huuuuge until he went out.

Alex Smith, despite the Pats making him look like an HOFer, ain't gonna win you the big games.

Berry is a huge loss no doubt one of the top, if not the, impact defenders in football. One of those irreplaceable guys.

 

[HooperScooper]

I'm pretty sure every Boston sports thread on this board is started by New York fans.

 

[MadDogRevival]

If LeBron goes out there and goes 4/3/4 in a losing effort you'd rightfully rip him. Thomas Edward Brady* ended last night with a 35 passer rating.

Get some sleep counselor. You're just wrong on this one.

 

[MadDogRevival]

I love that the Chiefs are a Super Bowl contender here and all over FB for my Patriot friends

They were ranked 9 in the power rankings pre-season and their rookie running back looked like an all-pro. So, yeah, it's legitimate to say they are, currently, SB contenders. You don't think? Really? Or just hate-the-Patriots really?

 

[mauconnfan]

They were ranked 9 in the power rankings pre-season and their rookie running back looked like an all-pro. So, yeah, it's legitimate to say they are, currently, SB contenders. You don't think? Really? Or just hate-the-Patriots really?

When have they won a big game with him QBing? That's why they won't win nor are they a threat to with him. He's proven it already no reason to think otherwise.

And there is a reason their rookie running back looked like an All-Pro and that would be my concern if I was a Pats fan, not whether or not KC is a contender.

 

[formerlurker]

I'm a Giants fan so I love playing Tom Barbie and the Patriots. There's a "Mad Tom Brady" meme floating around after last night's game and this is my favorite.

 

[beakumhawks]

I don't buy the excuse that Brady and his receivers simply weren't on the "same page." Brady was missing wide open receivers all night and in the end he looked like a 40 year old quarterback. Alex Smith had the game of his life. The thing that most impressed me about Smith was his ability to throw the deep ball. That is something we haven't seen out of him before. Usually if the Chiefs have a wide open receiver streaking down the sideline Smith will overthrow him by a couple of yards, but not this game. He was hitting them in stride. I"m not holding my breath for this to continue the entire season but if it does KC has the speed weapons to make opposing defenses respect the deep threat. That will make the underneath game for which Smith excels that much better.

The Pats game plan seemed to be to rush three men and drop the rest back in coverage. That obviously didn't work and I was surprised that they didn't change things up, especially after getting burned for long passes when Smith had all day to throw.

Losing Barry will hurt. KC still has a difficult time stopping the run, and the pass rush is poor. Yeah, they stopped you guys on a couple of short fourth downs but they had to sell out to do so. The Pats looked very average Thursday night and KC looked like Super Bowl contenders. I don't expect both those things to continue.

 

[Palatine]

The Patriot defense looked awful. Their pass rush was non-existent.

Last Year, they held teams to 15 points a game. That let the offense do whatever they wanted. If the defense is anywhere near as bad as it showed on Thursday. It will put more stress on the offense and their 40 year old leader. Should be interesting to see how he holds up this year.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't buy the excuse that Brady and his receivers simply weren't on the "same page." Brady was missing wide open receivers all night and in the end he looked like a 40 year old quarterback.

Then you haven't been paying attention. Brady operates on repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition.

He wants you to turn on an inch marker, not a yard marker. With the correct hip position, shoulder position, arm position, foot position, speed. That's why a lot of very good receivers come to the Pats and can't hack it. He drills that stuff all summer.

If he misses you it's usually cause the receiver wasn't perfect. He throws to where they 'should' be. Not where they are.

This is why the loss of Julien was so big, because he and Brady not only put together perfect routes, he also could adlib in the exact same fashion as Brady thought. So when a route tree broke down, they could effectively run a play that wasn't even in the playbook. Brady would throw it to open space, and Edelman would 'magically' appear there.

And I'm not even saying Brady played well. He didn't play particularly well, but nobody did.

The number of times I've heard, "he's getting older, he's 37, he's 38, he's 39, etc etc etc...." and A few games later it's lights out. Happens every year. People are so pumped to make the call that "it's over", that they are wrong more often than not. He's got a few more years as a high caliber QB imo.

The Pats game plan seemed to be to rush three men and drop the rest back in coverage. That obviously didn't work and I was surprised that they didn't change things up, especially after getting burned for long passes when Smith had all day to throw.

This was by far and away the most surprising thing of the night for me. The Pats are usually phenomenal at making adjustments. Both at the half, and throughout the game. It didn't appear they made many and I couldn't figure out why. Head scratcher.

 

[Waquoit]

If he misses you it's usually cause the receiver wasn't perfect. He throws to where they 'should' be. Not where they are.

I agree with all of this except for his deep throws. He's not nearly as accurate overall on those.

 

[intlzncster]

I agree with all of this except for his deep throws. He's not nearly as accurate overall on those.

This gets mentioned a lot. I think it's because he's so damn accurate on short/intermediate his deep ball is always going to be comparatively worse. But...

Tom Brady has been one of the best deep ball quarterbacks in the NFL

Including the playoffs, Brady tied for the 2nd most touchdown passes from deep passes (defined as 15+ yards by the NFL) and held the 2nd best passer rating of 127.1 (behind Cowboys rookie QB Dak Prescott: 128.7). Compare that production to other seasons by 39-year-old quarterbacks (2015 Peyton Manning: 67.8; 2008 Brett Favre: 53.1) and it’s clear that Brady’s performance is unprecedented.

Also: NFL 1000: Ranking the Best Deep Throwers

It's not his best throw, but he's way better than the common meme that's out there. I get that is one season. But part of the problem, is the Pats offense has never (outside 2007) really been predicated on deep throws. So he has smaller sample sizes, which skews %s. As is usually the case, the answer is likely somewhere in the middle.

Thursday night, he was not so good on anything though.

 

[champs99and04]

Then you haven't been paying attention. Brady operates on repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition.

He wants you to turn on an inch marker, not a yard marker. With the correct hip position, shoulder position, arm position, foot position, speed. That's why a lot of very good receivers come to the Pats and can't hack it. He drills that stuff all summer.

If he misses you it's usually cause the receiver wasn't perfect. He throws to where they 'should' be. Not where they are.

This is why the loss of Julien was so big, because he and Brady not only put together perfect routes, he also could adlib in the exact same fashion as Brady thought. So when a route tree broke down, they could effectively run a play that wasn't even in the playbook. Brady would throw it to open space, and Edelman would 'magically' appear there.

And I'm not even saying Brady played well. He didn't play particularly well, but nobody did.

The number of times I've heard, "he's getting older, he's 37, he's 38, he's 39, etc etc etc...." and A few games later it's lights out. Happens every year. People are so pumped to make the call that "it's over", that they are wrong more often than not. He's got a few more years as a high caliber QB imo.



This was by far and away the most surprising thing of the night for me. The Pats are usually phenomenal at making adjustments. Both at the half, and throughout the game. It didn't appear they made many and I couldn't figure out why. Head scratcher.

I think this is a great assessment of what makes Brady great. His greatest skill - and it is absolutely a skill - is his ability to seemingly always be throwing to open receivers. That's not to say he can't thread the needle when he has to, but he isn't Rodgers where he's putting the ball into unthinkable windows and constantly throwing guys open with back-shoulder throws that leave his hands before the receivers even turn around. There was one throw yesterday where Gronk was covered well and he fit it in there anyways that might need to happen more this season when his safety blanket in Edlemen is not there.

All in all, this logic is pretty consistent with why Brady's struggles often occur early in the season rather than later. It's a repetition based system that is built to make receivers expendable but maybe not right away - I think people also lost sight of the fact that Gronk is returning from a serious injury and is going to take some time to get back to his old self. That rust matters, too, even if Brady and Gronk have been at it together for a while.

Still, there is going to come a time when the light doesn't go on. I don't think it will be this year, but if we're looking for warning signs, this is three games in the last four now where it's been a struggle for him against high-end defenses. There comes a point, as we saw with Peyton, where savvy and preparation and leadership only takes you so far. There is reason to think that will happen later with Brady than it did with Peyton because of the neck issue, but it's impossible to predict.

 

[intlzncster]

There was one throw yesterday where Gronk was covered well and he fit it in there anyways that might need to happen more this season when his safety blanket in Edlemen is not there.

I remember that throw, Gronk caught it about head high with Berry all up in his grill. But I'll be surprised to see many backfields matchup like the Chiefs did. Seahawks are the only ones that come to mind. Earl Thomas/Cam Chancellor combo can do it pretty well.

And sans Berry, the Chiefs won't be able to again. He's one of maybe 2-3 guys in the league who can consistently cover Gronk 1-on-1. And as you mentioned, he was getting Gronk early.

Still, there is going to come a time when the light doesn't go on. I don't think it will be this year, but if we're looking for warning signs, this is three games in the last four now where it's been a struggle for him against high-end defenses. There comes a point, as we saw with Peyton, where savvy and preparation and leadership only takes you so far. There is reason to think that will happen later with Brady than it did with Peyton because of the neck issue, but it's impossible to predict.

No doubt. Brady's not superhuman. Age catches everybody. But a couple of things serve him well.

Perfect mechanics: Absolutely obsesses about his mechanics to this day. From which arm strength and accuracy flows. Contrast that to someone like Rogers. One of Rogers strengths is his ability to scramble (legs) and throw from all sorts of body positions (arm). Both of these will fade quicker than Brady's type of throwing. Rogers even mentioned in an interview (last year I think), echoing that, and saying he wants to be more consistent mechanically as he gets older.

Athleticism: Brady has none. And therefore doesn't rely on it. Fading of athleticism is what often signals a death knell for QBs (all players actually). Brady doesn't really have any to lose. lol

Dedication as he ages: I know people think it's cliche. But Brady really is wired differently than most guys. You listen to damn near every quarterback talk about this, that they lose a bit of the fire, aren't as dedicated to the grind late in there careers. Brady still has the fire of a 23 year old. He still gets energized by the grind - I mean, this guy still earns the premium parking space by being the guy who spends the most time working at the facility in the offseason.

He's damn near psychotic about his prep: every single thing he puts in his body, he judges on whether it will improve his football or hurt it. His favorite thing to do is watching film. Still. I mean, at age 39, he spent the entire season working on his footwork, speed, athleticism so he could scramble more. That's not normal. He's a weird guy quite frankly. I think he might be slightly mentally ill haha. Just obsessed.

Injury prevention: You could mention his plyometrics and diet and all that, but that is not what I'm referring to. I've no idea really how much all that stuff actually helps. What I am referring to is the fact that he gets the ball out so damn quick and is so smart/savvy, that he is not getting hit as often as other QBs. And this is cumulative, so the less hits he took the last few years, the longer he can go. I truly believe Peyton Manning getting hurt later in his career probably had a lot to do with getting teed off on early in his career. It's why Andrew Luck isn't gonna last either. You think the Colts would have learned smh

 

[willie99]

I were hate like a badge of honor

Thanks for bringing a smile to my face

 

[beakumhawks]

Brady had some nice throws, but there were numerous throws in the first half where he had a man wide open by the sidelines and he threw the ball ten feet over the guys head. That had nothing to do with timing. I think the game turned when the Chiefs were able to put just a little bit of pressure on Brady rushing only three men. The Pats were never able to do that.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Will win you a few games, might get you deep in the playoffs here or there, but will never win you the big game

Doesnt this describe pretty much 75% of the qbs in the league?

 

[intlzncster]

Doesnt this describe pretty much 75% of the qbs in the league?

Yep. That's why they can't win Championships.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Brady had some nice throws, but there were numerous throws in the first half where he had a man wide open by the sidelines . . .

Just no. There were virtually no times when guys were open and he missed them, after the first throw. Post a link or something - maybe we just disagree on what "wide open" means.

 

[intlzncster]

Just no. There were virtually no times when guys were open and he missed them, after the first throw. Post a link or something - maybe we just disagree on what "wide open" means.

Also (and I don't think Brady played well), there's a difference between being open, and being exactly where Tom wants you to be). I still don't know why Hogan wasn't utilized more. He seems to get space on anybody, so throw him the damn ball.

 

[NielsisGood]

You've been pretty astute over the years, but this is waaaaaay off.
There were many problems for the Pats last night - - Brady was not one of them. I've watched virtually every pass of his career. He's had bad games before, no doubt, but last night was 90% about his receivers being unable to create separation.
And the problem with the receivers was substantially due to Edelman being out. His worth to this team as a slot receiver was on full display last night. Without him creating instant 5-8 yard routes for Brady, they were forced to look vertical - don't blame play calling - you can only do so much with what you have. Amendola did his best, but he's no JE11.
Counting the Pats out after 1 game is foolish, of course, but perceptive Pat fans have to be concerned. The defense was awful - if it wasn't for that first fumble, the Chiefs might have hung 50 on them. Ouch.

All that written, my guess is this - the Chiefs are a top 3 team this year, and they are going to contend for a SB. Hunt was a beast. The rookie WR was really good. The core is there. The Achilles tear may be the difference between SB and close, however. What a shame. Love that coach. Class guy.

I respectfully disagree with this. Aside from Gronk there were open receivers most of the night. TB was throwing to the right targets most of the time, but the lack of touch on his throws considering how little pressure he faced for most of the game is worrisome. I can't really remember another game from Brady where he wasn't being pressured and just blatantly missing his throws.