OT: Pats 0-16

[mauconnfan]

There was too much overreact in that post.

They've seemed to be a trendy pick the last few years. I don't buy it. Especially without Berry. He's the key to that defense. Was huuuuge until he went out.

Alex Smith, despite the Pats making him look like an HOFer, ain't gonna win you the big games.

Berry is a huge loss no doubt one of the top, if not the, impact defenders in football. One of those irreplaceable guys.

 

[HooperScooper]

I'm pretty sure every Boston sports thread on this board is started by New York fans.

 

[MadDogRevival]

If LeBron goes out there and goes 4/3/4 in a losing effort you'd rightfully rip him. Thomas Edward Brady* ended last night with a 35 passer rating.

Get some sleep counselor. You're just wrong on this one.

 

[MadDogRevival]

I love that the Chiefs are a Super Bowl contender here and all over FB for my Patriot friends

They were ranked 9 in the power rankings pre-season and their rookie running back looked like an all-pro. So, yeah, it's legitimate to say they are, currently, SB contenders. You don't think? Really? Or just hate-the-Patriots really?

 

[mauconnfan]

They were ranked 9 in the power rankings pre-season and their rookie running back looked like an all-pro. So, yeah, it's legitimate to say they are, currently, SB contenders. You don't think? Really? Or just hate-the-Patriots really?

When have they won a big game with him QBing? That's why they won't win nor are they a threat to with him. He's proven it already no reason to think otherwise.

And there is a reason their rookie running back looked like an All-Pro and that would be my concern if I was a Pats fan, not whether or not KC is a contender.

 

[formerlurker]

I'm a Giants fan so I love playing Tom Barbie and the Patriots. There's a "Mad Tom Brady" meme floating around after last night's game and this is my favorite.

 

[beakumhawks]

I don't buy the excuse that Brady and his receivers simply weren't on the "same page." Brady was missing wide open receivers all night and in the end he looked like a 40 year old quarterback. Alex Smith had the game of his life. The thing that most impressed me about Smith was his ability to throw the deep ball. That is something we haven't seen out of him before. Usually if the Chiefs have a wide open receiver streaking down the sideline Smith will overthrow him by a couple of yards, but not this game. He was hitting them in stride. I"m not holding my breath for this to continue the entire season but if it does KC has the speed weapons to make opposing defenses respect the deep threat. That will make the underneath game for which Smith excels that much better.

The Pats game plan seemed to be to rush three men and drop the rest back in coverage. That obviously didn't work and I was surprised that they didn't change things up, especially after getting burned for long passes when Smith had all day to throw.

Losing Barry will hurt. KC still has a difficult time stopping the run, and the pass rush is poor. Yeah, they stopped you guys on a couple of short fourth downs but they had to sell out to do so. The Pats looked very average Thursday night and KC looked like Super Bowl contenders. I don't expect both those things to continue.

 

[Palatine]

The Patriot defense looked awful. Their pass rush was non-existent.

Last Year, they held teams to 15 points a game. That let the offense do whatever they wanted. If the defense is anywhere near as bad as it showed on Thursday. It will put more stress on the offense and their 40 year old leader. Should be interesting to see how he holds up this year.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't buy the excuse that Brady and his receivers simply weren't on the "same page." Brady was missing wide open receivers all night and in the end he looked like a 40 year old quarterback.

Then you haven't been paying attention. Brady operates on repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition.

He wants you to turn on an inch marker, not a yard marker. With the correct hip position, shoulder position, arm position, foot position, speed. That's why a lot of very good receivers come to the Pats and can't hack it. He drills that stuff all summer.

If he misses you it's usually cause the receiver wasn't perfect. He throws to where they 'should' be. Not where they are.

This is why the loss of Julien was so big, because he and Brady not only put together perfect routes, he also could adlib in the exact same fashion as Brady thought. So when a route tree broke down, they could effectively run a play that wasn't even in the playbook. Brady would throw it to open space, and Edelman would 'magically' appear there.

And I'm not even saying Brady played well. He didn't play particularly well, but nobody did.

The number of times I've heard, "he's getting older, he's 37, he's 38, he's 39, etc etc etc...." and A few games later it's lights out. Happens every year. People are so pumped to make the call that "it's over", that they are wrong more often than not. He's got a few more years as a high caliber QB imo.

The Pats game plan seemed to be to rush three men and drop the rest back in coverage. That obviously didn't work and I was surprised that they didn't change things up, especially after getting burned for long passes when Smith had all day to throw.

This was by far and away the most surprising thing of the night for me. The Pats are usually phenomenal at making adjustments. Both at the half, and throughout the game. It didn't appear they made many and I couldn't figure out why. Head scratcher.

 

[Waquoit]

If he misses you it's usually cause the receiver wasn't perfect. He throws to where they 'should' be. Not where they are.

I agree with all of this except for his deep throws. He's not nearly as accurate overall on those.

 

[intlzncster]

I agree with all of this except for his deep throws. He's not nearly as accurate overall on those.

This gets mentioned a lot. I think it's because he's so damn accurate on short/intermediate his deep ball is always going to be comparatively worse. But...

Tom Brady has been one of the best deep ball quarterbacks in the NFL

Including the playoffs, Brady tied for the 2nd most touchdown passes from deep passes (defined as 15+ yards by the NFL) and held the 2nd best passer rating of 127.1 (behind Cowboys rookie QB Dak Prescott: 128.7). Compare that production to other seasons by 39-year-old quarterbacks (2015 Peyton Manning: 67.8; 2008 Brett Favre: 53.1) and it’s clear that Brady’s performance is unprecedented.

Also: NFL 1000: Ranking the Best Deep Throwers

It's not his best throw, but he's way better than the common meme that's out there. I get that is one season. But part of the problem, is the Pats offense has never (outside 2007) really been predicated on deep throws. So he has smaller sample sizes, which skews %s. As is usually the case, the answer is likely somewhere in the middle.

Thursday night, he was not so good on anything though.

 

[champs99and04]

Then you haven't been paying attention. Brady operates on repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition.

He wants you to turn on an inch marker, not a yard marker. With the correct hip position, shoulder position, arm position, foot position, speed. That's why a lot of very good receivers come to the Pats and can't hack it. He drills that stuff all summer.

If he misses you it's usually cause the receiver wasn't perfect. He throws to where they 'should' be. Not where they are.

This is why the loss of Julien was so big, because he and Brady not only put together perfect routes, he also could adlib in the exact same fashion as Brady thought. So when a route tree broke down, they could effectively run a play that wasn't even in the playbook. Brady would throw it to open space, and Edelman would 'magically' appear there.

And I'm not even saying Brady played well. He didn't play particularly well, but nobody did.

The number of times I've heard, "he's getting older, he's 37, he's 38, he's 39, etc etc etc...." and A few games later it's lights out. Happens every year. People are so pumped to make the call that "it's over", that they are wrong more often than not. He's got a few more years as a high caliber QB imo.



This was by far and away the most surprising thing of the night for me. The Pats are usually phenomenal at making adjustments. Both at the half, and throughout the game. It didn't appear they made many and I couldn't figure out why. Head scratcher.

I think this is a great assessment of what makes Brady great. His greatest skill - and it is absolutely a skill - is his ability to seemingly always be throwing to open receivers. That's not to say he can't thread the needle when he has to, but he isn't Rodgers where he's putting the ball into unthinkable windows and constantly throwing guys open with back-shoulder throws that leave his hands before the receivers even turn around. There was one throw yesterday where Gronk was covered well and he fit it in there anyways that might need to happen more this season when his safety blanket in Edlemen is not there.

All in all, this logic is pretty consistent with why Brady's struggles often occur early in the season rather than later. It's a repetition based system that is built to make receivers expendable but maybe not right away - I think people also lost sight of the fact that Gronk is returning from a serious injury and is going to take some time to get back to his old self. That rust matters, too, even if Brady and Gronk have been at it together for a while.

Still, there is going to come a time when the light doesn't go on. I don't think it will be this year, but if we're looking for warning signs, this is three games in the last four now where it's been a struggle for him against high-end defenses. There comes a point, as we saw with Peyton, where savvy and preparation and leadership only takes you so far. There is reason to think that will happen later with Brady than it did with Peyton because of the neck issue, but it's impossible to predict.

 

[intlzncster]

There was one throw yesterday where Gronk was covered well and he fit it in there anyways that might need to happen more this season when his safety blanket in Edlemen is not there.

I remember that throw, Gronk caught it about head high with Berry all up in his grill. But I'll be surprised to see many backfields matchup like the Chiefs did. Seahawks are the only ones that come to mind. Earl Thomas/Cam Chancellor combo can do it pretty well.

And sans Berry, the Chiefs won't be able to again. He's one of maybe 2-3 guys in the league who can consistently cover Gronk 1-on-1. And as you mentioned, he was getting Gronk early.

Still, there is going to come a time when the light doesn't go on. I don't think it will be this year, but if we're looking for warning signs, this is three games in the last four now where it's been a struggle for him against high-end defenses. There comes a point, as we saw with Peyton, where savvy and preparation and leadership only takes you so far. There is reason to think that will happen later with Brady than it did with Peyton because of the neck issue, but it's impossible to predict.

No doubt. Brady's not superhuman. Age catches everybody. But a couple of things serve him well.

Perfect mechanics: Absolutely obsesses about his mechanics to this day. From which arm strength and accuracy flows. Contrast that to someone like Rogers. One of Rogers strengths is his ability to scramble (legs) and throw from all sorts of body positions (arm). Both of these will fade quicker than Brady's type of throwing. Rogers even mentioned in an interview (last year I think), echoing that, and saying he wants to be more consistent mechanically as he gets older.

Athleticism: Brady has none. And therefore doesn't rely on it. Fading of athleticism is what often signals a death knell for QBs (all players actually). Brady doesn't really have any to lose. lol

Dedication as he ages: I know people think it's cliche. But Brady really is wired differently than most guys. You listen to damn near every quarterback talk about this, that they lose a bit of the fire, aren't as dedicated to the grind late in there careers. Brady still has the fire of a 23 year old. He still gets energized by the grind - I mean, this guy still earns the premium parking space by being the guy who spends the most time working at the facility in the offseason.

He's damn near psychotic about his prep: every single thing he puts in his body, he judges on whether it will improve his football or hurt it. His favorite thing to do is watching film. Still. I mean, at age 39, he spent the entire season working on his footwork, speed, athleticism so he could scramble more. That's not normal. He's a weird guy quite frankly. I think he might be slightly mentally ill haha. Just obsessed.

Injury prevention: You could mention his plyometrics and diet and all that, but that is not what I'm referring to. I've no idea really how much all that stuff actually helps. What I am referring to is the fact that he gets the ball out so damn quick and is so smart/savvy, that he is not getting hit as often as other QBs. And this is cumulative, so the less hits he took the last few years, the longer he can go. I truly believe Peyton Manning getting hurt later in his career probably had a lot to do with getting teed off on early in his career. It's why Andrew Luck isn't gonna last either. You think the Colts would have learned smh

 

[willie99]

I were hate like a badge of honor

Thanks for bringing a smile to my face

 

[beakumhawks]

Brady had some nice throws, but there were numerous throws in the first half where he had a man wide open by the sidelines and he threw the ball ten feet over the guys head. That had nothing to do with timing. I think the game turned when the Chiefs were able to put just a little bit of pressure on Brady rushing only three men. The Pats were never able to do that.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Will win you a few games, might get you deep in the playoffs here or there, but will never win you the big game

Doesnt this describe pretty much 75% of the qbs in the league?

 

[intlzncster]

Doesnt this describe pretty much 75% of the qbs in the league?

Yep. That's why they can't win Championships.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Brady had some nice throws, but there were numerous throws in the first half where he had a man wide open by the sidelines . . .

Just no. There were virtually no times when guys were open and he missed them, after the first throw. Post a link or something - maybe we just disagree on what "wide open" means.

 

[intlzncster]

Just no. There were virtually no times when guys were open and he missed them, after the first throw. Post a link or something - maybe we just disagree on what "wide open" means.

Also (and I don't think Brady played well), there's a difference between being open, and being exactly where Tom wants you to be). I still don't know why Hogan wasn't utilized more. He seems to get space on anybody, so throw him the damn ball.

 

[NielsisGood]

You've been pretty astute over the years, but this is waaaaaay off.
There were many problems for the Pats last night - - Brady was not one of them. I've watched virtually every pass of his career. He's had bad games before, no doubt, but last night was 90% about his receivers being unable to create separation.
And the problem with the receivers was substantially due to Edelman being out. His worth to this team as a slot receiver was on full display last night. Without him creating instant 5-8 yard routes for Brady, they were forced to look vertical - don't blame play calling - you can only do so much with what you have. Amendola did his best, but he's no JE11.
Counting the Pats out after 1 game is foolish, of course, but perceptive Pat fans have to be concerned. The defense was awful - if it wasn't for that first fumble, the Chiefs might have hung 50 on them. Ouch.

All that written, my guess is this - the Chiefs are a top 3 team this year, and they are going to contend for a SB. Hunt was a beast. The rookie WR was really good. The core is there. The Achilles tear may be the difference between SB and close, however. What a shame. Love that coach. Class guy.

I respectfully disagree with this. Aside from Gronk there were open receivers most of the night. TB was throwing to the right targets most of the time, but the lack of touch on his throws considering how little pressure he faced for most of the game is worrisome. I can't really remember another game from Brady where he wasn't being pressured and just blatantly missing his throws.

 

[UC313]

My girl asked me last night what his deal was and why she heard he was only gonna be around another year and I was explaining the Mahomes thing and part of it was yeah Smith is like Andy Dalton Plus. Will win you a few games, might get you deep in the playoffs here or there, but will never win you the big game

I called it right after we drafted Mahomes that alex smith will have his best year ever. Hes gonna play loose and free for the first time ever. Hes got nothin to lose. His contracts up and his replacement has been hired.

KC also dumped maclin to groom the wrs for mahomes style. They kept on a big fast raw 2nd year kid outta michigan (robinson) and the other kid jehu chesson (sp?) who are more stretch the field players than possesion guys like maclin. The shift from the west coast offense to a more vertical offense will happen throughout the season.

Its a transition year but with upside of catching lightning in a bottle with the rise of hunt and a loose year from alex.

 

[MadDogRevival]

I can't really remember another game from Brady where he wasn't being pressured and just blatantly missing his throws.

Yet not a peep from the announcers? Or any articles? Sportswriters? Wouldn't they be all over that? I saw pass after pass upfield to blanket covered receivers.
Throw me a bone here - I'm willing to fairly assess your theory, but I didn't see what you saw. Can you point to a particular play? Reviewer? Coach comment? Brady admission? Anything?

 

[NielsisGood]

Yet not a peep from the announcers? Or any articles? Sportswriters? Wouldn't they be all over that? I saw pass after pass upfield to blanket covered receivers.
Throw me a bone here - I'm willing to fairly assess your theory, but I didn't see what you saw. Can you point to a particular play? Reviewer? Coach comment? Brady admission? Anything?

I've heard a few people share that assessment of Brady. Pretty sure Bill Simmons mentioned it on his pod, and I've heard a few of the talking heads on espn/csn say it as well. A specific play I can point to is when Pats had the ball down 1 early in the 4th and Cooks was wide open coming off a curl on the far sideline. Play was 3rd and long, Cooks wide open probably about 2-3 yards underneath his defender and Brady sails it over Cooks head to the point where Cooks had to jump out of bounds to try and catch it. There was also a seam down the middle where Cooks had a step or 2 on his man fairly deep and Brady overthrew the play by about 5 yards, and I saw the same thing happen a few times throwing to Hogan.


That's not to say that KC didn't do a good job at times in coverage, just that there were plenty of open targets during the game and Brady overthrew most of them. Way more than I've ever seen in a game where he wasn't being heavily pressured (for most of the game until the end anyways).


Now I'd definitely rather see him have too much on his throws as opposed to end of career Peyton where he struggled to get the ball more than 7-8 yards downfield, but Brady with any reasonable amount of protection is always absolute money on short-intermediate throws, so it was perplexing seeing him airmail as many throws as he did. The defense clearly fell apart after Hightower left, but hyper athletes like Hill and Hunt were always going to be an issue for this front 7 anyways, so I'm not nearly as surprised with that as I was with Brady.

 

[intlzncster]

I've heard a few people share that assessment of Brady. Pretty sure Bill Simmons mentioned it on his pod, and I've heard a few of the talking heads on espn/csn say it as well. A specific play I can point to is when Pats had the ball down 1 early in the 4th and Cooks was wide open coming off a curl on the far sideline. Play was 3rd and long, Cooks wide open probably about 2-3 yards underneath his defender and Brady sails it over Cooks head to the point where Cooks had to jump out of bounds to try and catch it. There was also a seam down the middle where Cooks had a step or 2 on his man fairly deep and Brady overthrew the play by about 5 yards, and I saw the same thing happen a few times throwing to Hogan.


That's not to say that KC didn't do a good job at times in coverage, just that there were plenty of open targets during the game and Brady overthrew most of them. Way more than I've ever seen in a game where he wasn't being heavily pressured (for most of the game until the end anyways).


Now I'd definitely rather see him have too much on his throws as opposed to end of career Peyton where he struggled to get the ball more than 7-8 yards downfield, but Brady with any reasonable amount of protection is always absolute money on short-intermediate throws, so it was perplexing seeing him airmail as many throws as he did. The defense clearly fell apart after Hightower left, but hyper athletes like Hill and Hunt were always going to be an issue for this front 7 anyways, so I'm not nearly as surprised with that as I was with Brady.

He IS capable of bad games though, rare as they may be. I mean, this isn't the first stinker he's ever laid. So I'm not sure it's instructive to say that 'he looks old' or he's 'slipping' etc.

One thing is for sure. He didn't look very comfortable. I mean, he had an illegal forward pass for gods sake. Hasn't had one of those in over a decade.

 

[MadDogRevival]

A specific play I can point to is when Pats had the ball down 1 early in the 4th and Cooks was wide open coming off a curl on the far sideline. Play was 3rd and long, Cooks wide open probably about 2-3 yards underneath his defender and Brady sails it over Cooks head to the point where Cooks had to jump out of bounds to try and catch it. There was also a seam down the middle where Cooks had a step or 2 on his man fairly deep and Brady overthrew the play by about 5 yards, and I saw the same thing happen a few times throwing to Hogan.

The drive you are talking about was the 2nd drive the Pats had down 1 in the 4th quarter. The play you are talking about occurred at 9:06.
At this point, Amendola is out.
1st down Brady throws over middle to Hogan who has zero separation. Incomplete.
2nd and 10. Brady has gobs of time, ends up throwing the ball out of bounds on the left sideline when pressure is about to get to him because nobody was open.
3rd and 10. The play you are talking about. Cooks lines up on the left side, runs a quick out . . . that is short of the 1st down line. He does, in fact, have plenty of separation. Brady throws the ball high, hitting him in stride or close to it. Cooks jumps about 6-8 inches to catch it, but comes down with a foot out of bounds. He didn't "have to run out of bounds" to catch it - he was running an out. Too much.

That's the play you cite to support your point? LOL dude.

You got a rookie wide receiver running a bad route that would have been short of the 1st down, Brady finds him and the rook doesn't have the experience to get his 2nd foot in bounds, which it looks like he could have, had he been thinking about it. Of course, give the kid a few more weeks to learn how to run the route the OC and the QB want and expect him to run, and I'm sure he'll be fine.

That's it?

Oh my. People love to watch the mighty fall.

 

[StoweD210]

You got a rookie wide receiver running a bad route that would have been short of the 1st down, Brady finds him and the rook doesn't have the experience to get his 2nd foot in bounds, which it looks like he could have, had he been thinking about it. Of course, give the kid a few more weeks to learn how to run the route the OC and the QB want and expect him to run, and I'm sure he'll be fine.

That's it?

Oh my. People love to watch the mighty fall.

Nitpicking, but Cooks isn't a rookie. It is his first year with NE and his first regular season game with the team, so maybe that's where you're going with this point.

Aside from that, I agree with your overall point and you did a nice job breaking down that series.

 

[NielsisGood]

He IS capable of bad games though, rare as they may be. I mean, this isn't the first stinker he's ever laid. So I'm not sure it's instructive to say that 'he looks old' or he's 'slipping' etc.

One thing is for sure. He didn't look very comfortable. I mean, he had an illegal forward pass for gods sake. Hasn't had one of those in over a decade.

Seems like you didn't read what I said and decided to infer the "he's old" from what I said.

 

[NielsisGood]

The drive you are talking about was the 2nd drive the Pats had down 1 in the 4th quarter. The play you are talking about occurred at 9:06.
At this point, Amendola is out.
1st down Brady throws over middle to Hogan who has zero separation. Incomplete.
2nd and 10. Brady has gobs of time, ends up throwing the ball out of bounds on the left sideline when pressure is about to get to him because nobody was open.
3rd and 10. The play you are talking about. Cooks lines up on the left side, runs a quick out . . . that is short of the 1st down line. He does, in fact, have plenty of separation. Brady throws the ball high, hitting him in stride or close to it. Cooks jumps about 6-8 inches to catch it, but comes down with a foot out of bounds. He didn't "have to run out of bounds" to catch it - he was running an out. Too much.

That's the play you cite to support your point? LOL dude.

You got a rookie wide receiver running a bad route that would have been short of the 1st down, Brady finds him and the rook doesn't have the experience to get his 2nd foot in bounds, which it looks like he could have, had he been thinking about it. Of course, give the kid a few more weeks to learn how to run the route the OC and the QB want and expect him to run, and I'm sure he'll be fine.

That's it?

Oh my. People love to watch the mighty fall.

I'm actually a Pats fan, your reaction to what I said is bizarre. LOL at the "Brady hit Cooks in stride...Cooks only had to jump 6 inches" lines though. Simply delusional.


Good job wasting 2 sentences copy/pasting the play by play feed from the game though. I was aware of when the play occurred before my last post.


You're almost as bad as that champs99and04 guy in terms of writing more and saying less. Can't believe I responded to you legitimately prior to this.

 

[Mr. French]

Keep crying about Brady and I'll keep sitting in FIRST PLACE!!!

JK for all you serious types, I am aware of the Bills' relative lack of talent but that doesn't stop me from rooting.

 

[intlzncster]

Seems like you didn't read what I said and decided to infer the "he's old" from what I said.

I thought you were the guy that implied that earlier in the thread, not that post. Apparently not.