OT: Tyson v. Douglas Turns 25 | Page 2 | The Boneyard

OT: Tyson v. Douglas Turns 25

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Cheeky said:
I saw Ali and Frazier and Foreman and all of them fight, going back into the late 70s.

Ali is the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport. His cultural importance, civil rights status, and so on, contribute greatly to his perceived might in the ring.

Footwork and jabs would not have helped Ali. Tyson in his prime would have cut the ring off and annihilated Ali. That's why Tyson in his prime is the best ever.

Old timers and purists hate Tyson because of who he was as a person - rapist, ear biter, and so on.

He would knock guys out with a grazing left hook like he was fighting children. He'd go entire fights and not get hit.

Ali would dance around for 12 rounds trying to cut the other guy.

Tyson haters like to believe that Tyson got so many early round KOs because guys were "afraid of him" or had "talked themselves into defeat before getting into the ring." Horsesh-t. He had early round KOs because he was a monster and even guys trying to run away from him in the ring couldn't get away from his power, speed, and quickness.

Flat out would have destroyed the old time fighters in their prime.

Iron Mike was one of a kind. Power, speed, ferocity, quickness, precision - nobody even comes close to Mike in his prime.
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Tyson may have been of a "newer" generation compared to those others, but he (trained by D'Amato) was as classicly trained as much, if not more than guys like Frazier or Norton or Holmes.
 
Cheeky said:
I saw Ali and Frazier and Foreman and all of them fight, going back into the late 70s.

Ali is the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport. His cultural importance, civil rights status, and so on, contribute greatly to his perceived might in the ring.

Footwork and jabs would not have helped Ali. Tyson in his prime would have cut the ring off and annihilated Ali. That's why Tyson in his prime is the best ever.

Old timers and purists hate Tyson because of who he was as a person - rapist, ear biter, and so on.

He would knock guys out with a grazing left hook like he was fighting children. He'd go entire fights and not get hit.

Ali would dance around for 12 rounds trying to cut the other guy.

Tyson haters like to believe that Tyson got so many early round KOs because guys were "afraid of him" or had "talked themselves into defeat before getting into the ring." Horsesh-t. He had early round KOs because he was a monster and even guys trying to run away from him in the ring couldn't get away from his power, speed, and quickness.

Flat out would have destroyed the old time fighters in their prime.

Iron Mike was one of a kind. Power, speed, ferocity, quickness, precision - nobody even comes close to Mike in his prime.
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Who did Tyson beat that was good? Tyson is like Boise State, sure that early record and 'scores' are impressive, but once he faced any kind of competition he caved. Never honed his game against other great fighters. That's the problem with Tyson fan-boys, they choose to overlook what happened in the ring and blame it on trainers, lifestyle etc... The results are the results and if he was as great as you think, Tyson would have never lost. I really liked early Tyson as a fighter too, other than the fact that he spoiled a few pay-per-view parties with quick knockouts I thoroughly enjoyed his career and was in from early on. Out of the ring doesn't matter, my diminished view of him is based on the fact that he under-achieved - also not incidentally Tyson is indisputably not nearly as smart as Ali & crowd - that helps when you are battling tough, savy and strategic fighters.

Disagree strongly about Ali. The Frazier and Norton bouts were slugfests. Ali could fight a number of different ways unlike Tyson who only had one style. If nothing else since Dundee was always in Ali's corner he would have figured Tyson out even if you contend peak Tyson was superior.

The fact that 40yr old Foreman came back and dominated early Tyson era heavyweights says a lot too. IF Ali is over-rated its because he did so much, Tyson it is the opposite - Iron Mike barely scratched his potential so people inflate who he was based on the early upward trajectory that flattened out and then nosedived.
 
Ali was not overated. He fought everybody and anybody. He never quit and had the heart of a Champion. Respect that he went through the toughest guantlet of heavyweights in the history of boxing. Sure he was cocky and got into his opponents head but he needed every edge he could get. Those were some big and bad dudes he fought many which were equal to Tyson.
 
Kitaman said:
Ali was not overated. He fought everybody and anybody. He never quit and had the heart of a Champion. Respect that he went through the toughest guantlet of heavyweights in the history of boxing. Sure he was cocky and got into his opponents head but he needed every edge he could get. Those were some big and bad dudes he fought many which were equal to Tyson.
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Ali was awesome, no doubt. He had the benefit of being champ in the golden age of boxing.

Tyson was 50 and 5, of which 3 losses were right when he hung it up. It's completely dumb to say he "caved." Other than the end, when he wasn't himself, Buster got a fluke win and Hollyfield got a nice win in the 11th round of 12. Come on. Clearly you hate the guy.

In any case, I never said he had the best career or was the best fighter of all time.

I simply said that, in his prime, he was better than everybody else, and by a lot.
 
Cheeky said:
Ali was awesome, no doubt. He had the benefit of being champ in the golden age of boxing. Tyson was 50 and 5, of which 3 losses were right when he hung it up. It's completely ed to say he "caved." Other than the end, when he wasn't himself, Buster got a fluke win and Hollyfield got a nice win in the 11th round of 12. Come on. Clearly you hate the guy. In any case, I never said he had the best career or was the best fighter of all time. I simply said that, in his prime, he was better than everybody else, and by a lot.
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I agree with Cheeky. Tyson's prime was just very short and then the coke and other issues took over. In his prime he was so fast and powerful it was inhuman.
 
Cheeky said:
Ali was awesome, no doubt. He had the benefit of being champ in the golden age of boxing.

Tyson was 50 and 5, of which 3 losses were right when he hung it up. It's completely ed to say he "caved." Other than the end, when he wasn't himself, Buster got a fluke win and Hollyfield got a nice win in the 11th round of 12. Come on. Clearly you hate the guy.

In any case, I never said he had the best career or was the best fighter of all time.

I simply said that, in his prime, he was better than everybody else, and by a lot.
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I admired Tyson and he is certainly one of the best fighters of all time and the most feared. I was only talking about Ali called overated.
 
.-.
Couldn't Larry Holmes beat Tyson? He was much bigger and knew how to box. And could Tyson hit him harder than Earnie Shavers?

 
Dogdeacon said:
The fact that 40yr old Foreman came back and dominated early Tyson era heavyweights says a lot too. IF Ali is over-rated its because he did so much, Tyson it is the opposite - Iron Mike barely scratched his potential so people inflate who he was based on the early upward trajectory that flattened out and then nosedived.
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Foreman didn't face anyone of note until he fought Cooney, who was ancient at the time as well. Saying that he fought the same guys Tyson did is misleading. If he did, he fought them when they were significantly older.

The difference in Tyson's approach and mechanics after 1989 is noticeable. His balance was off, and he didn't punch nearly as efficiently. Yes, the heavyweight division was pretty shallow in the late 1980's, but when he had proper instruction and wasn't crashing his car, snorting lines and slapping his wife around, he was a machine.
 
CAHUSKY said:
Me too. And welter weight. Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Breeland, etc in the 80's/early 90's was absolutely must see TV
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And a lot of good boxers in all weight classes: Boom Boom, Camacho, Alexis Arguello, Aaron Pryor, Julio Caesar Chavez even Pernell Whitaker (exciting to watch).

HBO was the hot ticket back in the day, until PPV took over and farked everything up.
 
The best fight I ever saw was a pair of cruiser weights, pompie vs trice I believe in 91. For 12 straight rounds these gguys battled, it could have been a draw, but I think pompie won, YouTube it, worth a watch
 
.-.
Tyson was a rudderless ship after Cus passed and he got away from Kevin Rooney. If you watch the espn show on the Douglas fight you see hop inept his handlers were. Left to his own devices; he crumbled. Properly handled, he was a top 5 all time heavyweight
 
CAHUSKY said:
Me too. And welter weight. Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Breeland, etc in the 80's/early 90's was absolutely must see TV
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NBC Sportsworld on Saturday afternoons used to carry great bouts. Aaron "The Hawk" Pryor, Alexis Arguello. I think even Marlon Starling may have been on there a couple times.
 
My stance on Tyson is more related to disagreeing with those that call him the best ever or even do so with the qualifier of saying at his peak he was the best. I'd like to know the best fighter he ever beat - is there anyone even in the top-50? When challenged he lost, them's the facts. I truly wish they were different and he had continued to get better, but since he didn't I simply react strongly to claims that he did.
If Tyson's best was so good he could and should have survived the personal turmoil and trainer dropoff and still beat Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis & all other comers. Tyson was undisputed champ for less than 3yrs = the claim that this is the best peak in heavyweight history is patently absurd.
 
Dogdeacon said:
My stance on Tyson is more related to disagreeing with those that call him the best ever or even do so with the qualifier of saying at his peak he was the best. I'd like to know the best fighter he ever beat - is there anyone even in the top-50? When challenged he lost, them's the facts. I truly wish they were different and he had continued to get better, but since he didn't I simply react strongly to claims that he did.
If Tyson's best was so good he could and should have survived the personal turmoil and trainer dropoff and still beat Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis & all other comers. Tyson was undisputed champ for less than 3yrs = the claim that this is the best peak in heavyweight history is patently absurd.
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I think that, for my generation, the overall opinion on Mike Tyson is largely informed by how impossible he was to beat in Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!!
 
CallMeBruce said:
I think that, for my generation, the overall opinion on Mike Tyson is largely informed by how impossible he was to beat in Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!!
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Don't sleep on that. 99.9%* of guys arguing Tyson belongs amongst histories' top heavyweights were 13-21 during his title reign playing Punch-Out heavily.

*the .1% is cheeky ;)
 
B1GEast said:
The best fight I ever saw was a pair of cruiser weights, pompie vs trice I believe in 91. For 12 straight rounds these gguys battled, it could have been a draw, but I think pompie won, YouTube it, worth a watch
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.-.
Regarding greatest fight rounds/endings, this has to be up there as well:

Diego Corrales vs Jose Luis Castillo (Round 10)

 
CAHUSKY said:
Me too. And welter weight. Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Breeland, etc in the 80's/early 90's was absolutely must see TV
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You fail to mention Marlon Starling? You're not from CT, are you? :D I can remember seeing Moochie dropping his gloves after a bell and then taking a knock-out punch from Breeland. Unreal. Then won in a rematch, I think.
 
A great fight no one talks about.....Holyfield vs (the late) Michael Dokes, in 1989.

 
Dogdeacon said:
Hearns - Hagler is the undisputed champion. Both goes threw bombs from the jump
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I still have a VHS recording of that fight. Hagler was cut early and had to go all out as the fight was going to be stopped. Best short fight ever.
 
Dogdeacon said:
Hearns - Hagler is the undisputed champion. Both goes threw bombs from the jump
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That fight was absolutely epic. I also remember it as the first time I ever drank a beer in front of my dad. Funny how silly things stick in your mind. I was just 17 and only took a couple of sips but i felt like an adult.
 
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Dove said:
You fail to mention Marlon Starling? You're not from CT, are you? :D I can remember seeing Moochie dropping his gloves after a bell and then taking a knock-out punch from Breeland. Unreal. Then won in a rematch, I think.
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Nope, But I do remember everyone raving about what a great fighter he was when i moved to CT in 1989. Wasn't on my radar before then.
 
CAHUSKY said:
That fight was absolutely epic. I also remember it as the first time I ever drank a beer in front of my dad. Funny how silly things stick in your mind. I was just 17 and only took a couple of sips but i felt like an adult.
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I think me and Tommy Hearns are still partially punch drunk from that fight, somehow 'guys' became 'goes' as I typed.

Sadly not kidding about Hearns though, he was never the same.
 
Excalibur said:
I still have a VHS recording of that fight. Hagler was cut early and had to go all out as the fight was going to be stopped. Best short fight ever.
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Good point on short fight. The one's mentioned earlier and then Ali-Frazier (14 rounds) and Leonard-Hagler are also in the conversation for 12+ round fights. I'd pick the Thrilla in Manilla.

I mean c'mon, no one else has two epic fights with epic names. Thrilla in Manilla and Rumble in the Jungle are the two best fight names of all-time, mike dropped.
 
Holyfield Bowe I, 10th round, nothing comes close to the sheer human will of a boxer that won't go down and turns the tide only to have the bell save his opponent.

 
Dove said:
You fail to mention Marlon Starling? You're not from CT, are you? :D I can remember seeing Moochie dropping his gloves after a bell and then taking a knock-out punch from Breeland. Unreal. Then won in a rematch, I think.
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Not quite. Moochie kicked Breland's ass. I remember that fight well, the pre-fight show was all about Breland. ABC was stunned by the result. He was popped after bell by Johnny Bumphis.
 
Waquoit said:
Not quite. Moochie kicked Breland's ass. I remember that fight well, the pre-fight show was all about Breland. ABC was stunned by the result. He was popped after bell by Johnny Bumphis.
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Moochie destroyed Breland who was a golden boy
He lost the title on what should have been a clear disqualification , to a South American fighter named Tomas Molinares.
The fight was declared a no-contest but inexplicably the challenger kept the title.
I think Molinares ran a foul of the mob and disappeared. Shortly after.
The morons on TV actually interviewed The Magic man in a semi-conscious state to get his view on the match ,it's classic TV.
 
.-.
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