OT: Tyson v. Douglas Turns 25

[Dove]

Me too. And welter weight. Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Breeland, etc in the 80's/early 90's was absolutely must see TV

You fail to mention Marlon Starling? You're not from CT, are you? I can remember seeing Moochie dropping his gloves after a bell and then taking a knock-out punch from Breeland. Unreal. Then won in a rematch, I think.

 

[Fishy]

A great fight no one talks about.....Holyfield vs (the late) Michael Dokes, in 1989.

 

[Excalibur]

Hearns - Hagler is the undisputed champion. Both goes threw bombs from the jump

I still have a VHS recording of that fight. Hagler was cut early and had to go all out as the fight was going to be stopped. Best short fight ever.

 

[CAHUSKY]

Hearns - Hagler is the undisputed champion. Both goes threw bombs from the jump

That fight was absolutely epic. I also remember it as the first time I ever drank a beer in front of my dad. Funny how silly things stick in your mind. I was just 17 and only took a couple of sips but i felt like an adult.

 

[CAHUSKY]

You fail to mention Marlon Starling? You're not from CT, are you? I can remember seeing Moochie dropping his gloves after a bell and then taking a knock-out punch from Breeland. Unreal. Then won in a rematch, I think.

Nope, But I do remember everyone raving about what a great fighter he was when i moved to CT in 1989. Wasn't on my radar before then.

 

[Dogdeacon]

That fight was absolutely epic. I also remember it as the first time I ever drank a beer in front of my dad. Funny how silly things stick in your mind. I was just 17 and only took a couple of sips but i felt like an adult.

I think me and Tommy Hearns are still partially punch drunk from that fight, somehow 'guys' became 'goes' as I typed.

Sadly not kidding about Hearns though, he was never the same.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I still have a VHS recording of that fight. Hagler was cut early and had to go all out as the fight was going to be stopped. Best short fight ever.

Good point on short fight. The one's mentioned earlier and then Ali-Frazier (14 rounds) and Leonard-Hagler are also in the conversation for 12+ round fights. I'd pick the Thrilla in Manilla.

I mean c'mon, no one else has two epic fights with epic names. Thrilla in Manilla and Rumble in the Jungle are the two best fight names of all-time, mike dropped.

 

[B1GEast]

Holyfield Bowe I, 10th round, nothing comes close to the sheer human will of a boxer that won't go down and turns the tide only to have the bell save his opponent.

 

[Waquoit]

You fail to mention Marlon Starling? You're not from CT, are you? I can remember seeing Moochie dropping his gloves after a bell and then taking a knock-out punch from Breeland. Unreal. Then won in a rematch, I think.

Not quite. Moochie kicked Breland's ass. I remember that fight well, the pre-fight show was all about Breland. ABC was stunned by the result. He was popped after bell by Johnny Bumphis.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Not quite. Moochie kicked Breland's ass. I remember that fight well, the pre-fight show was all about Breland. ABC was stunned by the result. He was popped after bell by Johnny Bumphis.

Moochie destroyed Breland who was a golden boy
He lost the title on what should have been a clear disqualification , to a South American fighter named Tomas Molinares.
The fight was declared a no-contest but inexplicably the challenger kept the title.
I think Molinares ran a foul of the mob and disappeared. Shortly after.
The morons on TV actually interviewed The Magic man in a semi-conscious state to get his view on the match ,it's classic TV.

 

[Dove]

Not quite. Moochie kicked Breland's ass. I remember that fight well, the pre-fight show was all about Breland. ABC was stunned by the result. He was popped after bell by Johnny Bumphis.

I did some Googlin' and Bumphus beat MArlon by scorecards when Moochie accidently headbutted him thus ending the fight due a gash on JB's forehead.

I do clearly remember Mooch dropping his gloves when a bell sounded and BANG(!!) down he went. National TV and Lampley calling the fight. But I clearly now misremember who the fight was against or if he resumed the fight.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

I did some Googlin' and Bumphus beat MArlon by scorecards when Moochie accidently headbutted him thus ending the fight due a gash on JB's forehead.

I do clearly remember Mooch dropping his gloves when a bell sounded and BANG(!!) down he went. National TV and Lampley calling the fight. But I clearly now misremember who the fight was against or if he resumed the fight.

In the 80's the welterweight div was loaded.
I'm not sure guys like Pacheo,and even ,Mayweather would even want to get into the mix.
Ray Leonard - Mayweather would be quite a moneymaker.
Pacheo vs John the beast Mugabi would be interesting
But I don't see him getting by a Roberto Duran at his prime.
The paceman would have been laid to rest.at 135
The fight I always wanted to see was Duran vs Julio Ceasar Chavez at 135 or 140 in their prime.

 

[Danzz]

Tyson was flawed in that his conditioning was not to go the distance. He also was a fighter not a boxer, especially after he changed trainers. The longer the opponent stayed in the ring it increased his chances of winning, not in the obvious sense but in that wearing Tyson down and getting it to later rounds. Tyson also got rocked like never before. Buster was a big dude and started leaning/pushing on Mike, enduring his punches and then fighting back.

I knew that Holyfield could and would beat Tyson. Tyson was his size and Holyfield was just a great light heavyweight boxer/fighter going back to the Olympics. He was not going to be intimidated, and after beating George Foreman was happy to see a smaller heavyweight.

As for Tyson he won many fights before the first bell rung. Micheal Spinks looked like he was wearing a diaper and not a cup when he got into the ring with Mike. Mike was just a bad arse , born to fight.

All true, Tyson was a bully and it was great to see him dominated.

 

[noeynox]

In the 80's the welterweight div was loaded.
I'm not sure guys like Pacheo,and even ,Mayweather would even want to get into the mix.
Ray Leonard - Mayweather would be quite a moneymaker.
Pacheo vs John the beast Mugabi would be interesting
But I don't see him getting by a Roberto Duran at his prime.
The paceman would have been laid to rest.at 135
The fight I always wanted to see was Duran vs Julio Ceasar Chavez at 135 or 140 in their prime.

That one could have been held in a phone booth rather than a ring.

 

[Towney007]

Tyson in his prime is the best fighter the heavyweight division's ever seen and it's not even close. Ali gets a boost with his civic activism and self-promotion, but I feel like Tyson would have cut him to pieces. Foreman in his prime would have been too slow. Louis could have been heavy handed enough, but he wasn't anywhere near the athlete Tyson was. The only heavyweight that comes close to having that kind of a talent gap between himself and the rest of the field is probably Sullivan - and now we're getting to horse drawn carriages territory...

Hand speed, head movement, ability to punch for obscene power moving forwards and back and a terrifying understanding of the geometry of a boxing ring. I'm probably in the minority here, but the only guy really anywhere close to his league at the time was Tony Tucker (who did rock him pretty bad in their fight, btw), but even that's probably a push.

Tyson's training was bad, the management was bad and there's no doubt he didn't take the fight seriously. His corner didn't even have ice packs and instead were using gloves. It was a sh-- show. All that's true. But I think people have always under-rated Douglas. Douglas motivated, sharp and in shape was *easily* a top 4-5 guy in the division at the time. When he wasn't, he was a punching bag. He had a tremendous jab and his left hook - save for Tyson's overhead right - was probably the best punch in the division. I think the result was a combination of Douglas having an outstanding game plan, his being in great shape and fighting maybe the best fight of his life. I think Tyson's poor performance wasn't as much him being out of shape as it was more of a lack of game plan.

I mean sure, Douglas was a bad match up size/skill for Tyson, but then again so were Tony Tucker and Frank Bruno, really; and Tyson beat both handily. I think Douglas deserves credit for fighting a great fight built on a great game plan and Tyson's corner being completely ill-equipped to come up with any way to get Tyson back into the fight.

 

[Waquoit]

I did some Googlin' and Bumphus beat MArlon by scorecards when Moochie accidently headbutted him thus ending the fight due a gash on JB's forehead.

I do clearly remember Mooch dropping his gloves when a bell sounded and BANG(!!) down he went. National TV and Lampley calling the fight. But I clearly now misremember who the fight was against or if he resumed the fight.

Yeah, you are right. Starling had a lot weird fights in his career.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Tyson in his prime is the best fighter the heavyweight division's ever seen and it's not even close. Ali gets a boost with his civic activism and self-promotion, but I feel like Tyson would have cut him to pieces. Foreman in his prime would have been too slow. Louis could have been heavy handed enough, but he wasn't anywhere near the athlete Tyson was. The only heavyweight that comes close to having that kind of a talent gap between himself and the rest of the field is probably Sullivan - and now we're getting to horse drawn carriages territory...

Hand speed, head movement, ability to punch for obscene power moving forwards and back and a terrifying understanding of the geometry of a boxing ring. I'm probably in the minority here, but the only guy really anywhere close to his league at the time was Tony Tucker (who did rock him pretty bad in their fight, btw), but even that's probably a push.

Tyson's training was bad, the management was bad and there's no doubt he didn't take the fight seriously. His corner didn't even have ice packs and instead were using gloves. It was a sh-- show. All that's true. But I think people have always under-rated Douglas. Douglas motivated, sharp and in shape was *easily* a top 4-5 guy in the division at the time. When he wasn't, he was a punching bag. He had a tremendous jab and his left hook - save for Tyson's overhead right - was probably the best punch in the division. I think the result was a combination of Douglas having an outstanding game plan, his being in great shape and fighting maybe the best fight of his life. I think Tyson's poor performance wasn't as much him being out of shape as it was more of a lack of game plan.

I mean sure, Douglas was a bad match up size/skill for Tyson, but then again so were Tony Tucker and Frank Bruno, really; and Tyson beat both handily. I think Douglas deserves credit for fighting a great fight built on a great game plan and Tyson's corner being completely ill-equipped to come up with any way to get Tyson back into the fight.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Ali almost seems to be downgraded for his skill because of his social activism during and after his career. Ali took out Liston for the title and beat Frazier, Norton and Foreman in their primes. No other heavy has as many victories over high quality boxers at the time of the fight. Ali would have danced and picked Tyson apart with his jab and took Tyson out similar to the strategy against Foreman in the jungle. Ali took Foreman's best shots and Tyson didn't hit as hard as Foreman.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Going on a bit of a tangent and self-confession. I can't watch boxing any more. I've totally converted to MMA. Much better athletes and a higher level of strategy.

I grew up a bit late for Ali. Both my parents were raised in Easton, Pa. the home of Larry Holmes. Got to watch Holmes in his prime. I was born and raised in Ct and got to see Starling in his prime. During my time in the Navy I lived in Virginia Beach for Sweet Pea Whitaker's prime and lived in Pensacola during Roy Jones, Jr's prime. As several other have mentioned Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran and the rest were electric to watch.

For all the fighters I saw Roy Jones, Jr is far and away the greatest. He was unstoppable over a decade of fighting and over about 30 lbs of different weight classes. His hands were lightning fast and his defense was impeccable. The fight stats in some of his championship fights are ridiculous. He could go multiple rounds without being hit.

 

[G0UCONN]

Hearns - Hagler is the undisputed champion. Both goes threw bombs from the jump

Greats fight no doubt but didn't it only last like three rounds?

 

[B1GEast]

Going on a bit of a tangent and self-confession. I can't watch boxing any more. I've totally converted to MMA. Much better athletes and a higher level of strategy.

MMA fighting is barbaric compared to boxing. I don't find it entertaining and personally tired of seeing all the wanna be guys that wear tap out clothing and try to pose as mma in training at the gym, it's so weak.

 

[Cheeky]

Ali almost seems to be downgraded for his skill because of his social activism during and after his career. . . . . Ali would have danced and picked Tyson apart with his jab and took Tyson out similar to the strategy against Foreman in the jungle. Ali took Foreman's best shots and Tyson didn't hit as hard as Foreman.

You have it backwards. Ali was an iconic social figure. People loved Ali. When Frazier knocked him down, many considered that to be a tragedy. People disliked Iron Mike.

Ali - Activist, culturally aware, handsome, articulate, leader, a representative of a race.
Tyson - Brutish, ignorant, unattractive, lisp, inarticulate, goon, "dirty fighter," ear biter, rapist, convicted felon.

In your wildest imagination you can't imagine that those non-boxing traits influence how their fighting careers are judged?

Ali would not have "danced" and "jabbed" at all, if he fought Tyson in his prime. Not one fighter was able to "dance" and "jab" Tyson in his prime. Ali would have tried the dance and jab crap and Tyson would have been up in his grill, in his unique manner, instantly, and Ali would have been just as overwhelmed as everybody else who had Tyson run them over in the ring.

Foreman maintains that he was given spiked water before the fight with Ali and wasn't at his best. Also, Tyson was a quicker and more accurate puncher than Foreman - one of the reasons he was so devastating.

Larry Holmes was KOed exactly one time in his career - it was Tyson.

Also, I went back and watched some Ali fights - he was knocked on his @ss by some British journeyman when he was 21 years old, and he needed his corner to cheat for him (smelling salts and delay through ripped glove) to survive into the next round. Overrated.

Anyway. Fun to hypothesize.

 

[Towney007]

Henry Cooper ^^^ was the guy who knocked Ali down.

An Ali-Tyson fight... meh, I don't see Ali getting past 5-6 rounds. Everyone always puts this 'dancing and jabbing' thing over as being the thing that'd have defeated Tyson, but which 'dancer and jabber' ever lasted more than 5 rounds with him? Even in his decline? Biggs, Berbick, Spinks, Thomas, Marvis Frazier - they all got torn to pieces. The guys who had the most success were guys who A.) had the size/strength to not get pushed around in clinches and in close (Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, Tucker); B.) Were tremendous counter punchers (Holyfield, Lewis, Douglas, Tucker); and C.) had incredible chins (Holyfield, Lewis, Douglas, Tucker). None of those guys were really stick and move fighters. They could lean and push back on Tyson, hit short punches and could take the beating inside when they had to.

I think that in fighting styles mean a lot and I just don't think Ali has any way to match up with Tyson at all. A George Foreman in his prime though? I think he could have been bad news for Tyson. I think an old fart Foreman would have been a bad match up for Tyson, too - thus Tyson avoiding him for a while... I think Tyson's better at everything than Foreman - but he'd have had the best shot at beating Tyson, IMO.

 

[Kitaman]

A Frazier-Tyson fight would have been epic. Ali got all the press but that Philly fighter was a bad . When you see and hear Ali today, that is partly due to Joe Frazier.

Also those were 15 round heavyweight fights back in the day.

 

[Danzz]

Tyson in his prime is the best fighter the heavyweight division's ever seen and it's not even close. Ali gets a boost with his civic activism and self-promotion, but I feel like Tyson would have cut him to pieces. Foreman in his prime would have been too slow. Louis could have been heavy handed enough, but he wasn't anywhere near the athlete Tyson was. The only heavyweight that comes close to having that kind of a talent gap between himself and the rest of the field is probably Sullivan - and now we're getting to horse drawn carriages territory...

Hand speed, head movement, ability to punch for obscene power moving forwards and back and a terrifying understanding of the geometry of a boxing ring. I'm probably in the minority here, but the only guy really anywhere close to his league at the time was Tony Tucker (who did rock him pretty bad in their fight, btw), but even that's probably a push.

Tyson's training was bad, the management was bad and there's no doubt he didn't take the fight seriously. His corner didn't even have ice packs and instead were using gloves. It was a sh-- show. All that's true. But I think people have always under-rated Douglas. Douglas motivated, sharp and in shape was *easily* a top 4-5 guy in the division at the time. When he wasn't, he was a punching bag. He had a tremendous jab and his left hook - save for Tyson's overhead right - was probably the best punch in the division. I think the result was a combination of Douglas having an outstanding game plan, his being in great shape and fighting maybe the best fight of his life. I think Tyson's poor performance wasn't as much him being out of shape as it was more of a lack of game plan.

I mean sure, Douglas was a bad match up size/skill for Tyson, but then again so were Tony Tucker and Frank Bruno, really; and Tyson beat both handily. I think Douglas deserves credit for fighting a great fight built on a great game plan and Tyson's corner being completely ill-equipped to come up with any way to get Tyson back into the fight.

Tyson was a great heavyweight fighter but the best, no way. Ali would have picked him apart. If Douglas frustrated Tyson can you imagine what Ali would do?

 

[Dogdeacon]

You have it backwards. Ali was an iconic social figure. People loved Ali. When Frazier knocked him down, many considered that to be a tragedy. People disliked Iron Mike.

Ali - Activist, culturally aware, handsome, articulate, leader, a representative of a race.
Tyson - Brutish, ignorant, unattractive, lisp, inarticulate, goon, "dirty fighter," ear biter, rapist, convicted felon.

In your wildest imagination you can't imagine that those non-boxing traits influence how their fighting careers are judged?

Ali would not have "danced" and "jabbed" at all, if he fought Tyson in his prime. Not one fighter was able to "dance" and "jab" Tyson in his prime. Ali would have tried the dance and jab crap and Tyson would have been up in his grill, in his unique manner, instantly, and Ali would have been just as overwhelmed as everybody else who had Tyson run them over in the ring.

Foreman maintains that he was given spiked water before the fight with Ali and wasn't at his best. Also, Tyson was a quicker and more accurate puncher than Foreman - one of the reasons he was so devastating.

Larry Holmes was KOed exactly one time in his career - it was Tyson.

Also, I went back and watched some Ali fights - he was knocked on his @ss by some British journeyman when he was 21 years old, and he needed his corner to cheat for him (smelling salts and delay through ripped glove) to survive into the next round. Overrated.

Anyway. Fun to hypothesize.

You are wrong. Ali was jailed then banned for the prime of his career and people refused to call him anything but Cassius Clay until the mid-70s when it flipped. Tyron's 3 yr prime vs Ali's 13 yr is a joke. Prison and time away from the ring broke the weaker Tyson but made Ali stronger.

It does amaze me the locality and fervor of Tyson fans. I think speaks more to power of imagining what could of been versus what was. Better to burn too hot and flame out at your peak for immortality. See Dean, James.