OT: Tyson v. Douglas Turns 25

[Marat]

Check out the 30-for-30 on the Russian team, it is really good. Deepens the story without taking anything away from the American side.

Yes I watched the first hour of the 30-for-30 of Miracles and Men last night and it is very good. On a related note, the movie "Red Army" is currently playing in limited theaters - would love to check that out when its more accessible. That is also supposed to be a good one.

 

[Excalibur]

I would take Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman and Holmes in their prime over Tyson.

Ali and Holmes had the foot speed and jabs to pick him apart until he tired out.

Frazier, Norton and Foreman weren't afraid of anyone.

Not saying Tyson couldn't beat them, but I think he would be an underdog in all of them

Foreman would have destroyed Tyson, who was basically a clone of Frasier with more power but a weaker chin. The others on that list I'm not so sure about.

When he had a real training team behind him, Tyson was more than just a puncher. He was difficult to hit and had great mechanics.

 

[Cheeky]

Ali, Frazier, Foreman etc...

I saw Ali and Frazier and Foreman and all of them fight, going back into the late 70s.

Ali is the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport. His cultural importance, civil rights status, and so on, contribute greatly to his perceived might in the ring.

Footwork and jabs would not have helped Ali. Tyson in his prime would have cut the ring off and annihilated Ali. That's why Tyson in his prime is the best ever.

Old timers and purists hate Tyson because of who he was as a person - rapist, ear biter, and so on.

He would knock guys out with a grazing left hook like he was fighting children. He'd go entire fights and not get hit.

Ali would dance around for 12 rounds trying to cut the other guy.

Tyson haters like to believe that Tyson got so many early round KOs because guys were "afraid of him" or had "talked themselves into defeat before getting into the ring." Horsesh-t. He had early round KOs because he was a monster and even guys trying to run away from him in the ring couldn't get away from his power, speed, and quickness.

Flat out would have destroyed the old time fighters in their prime.

Iron Mike was one of a kind. Power, speed, ferocity, quickness, precision - nobody even comes close to Mike in his prime.

 

[Marat]

Tyson indeed was one of a kind. The kind of electricity generated with a prime Tyson ring entrance has not been matched since. Will we see another heavyweight like that anytime soon? I doubt it.

 

[CAHUSKY]

Its funny reading this thread and knowing everyone responding is 40+ and can remember the glory years of boxing. Everyone under 40 is asking who these guys are and if they might be old MMA fighters.

 

[Deepster]

I saw Ali and Frazier and Foreman and all of them fight, going back into the late 70s.

Ali is the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport. His cultural importance, civil rights status, and so on, contribute greatly to his perceived might in the ring.

Footwork and jabs would not have helped Ali. Tyson in his prime would have cut the ring off and annihilated Ali. That's why Tyson in his prime is the best ever.

Old timers and purists hate Tyson because of who he was as a person - rapist, ear biter, and so on.

He would knock guys out with a grazing left hook like he was fighting children. He'd go entire fights and not get hit.

Ali would dance around for 12 rounds trying to cut the other guy.

Tyson haters like to believe that Tyson got so many early round KOs because guys were "afraid of him" or had "talked themselves into defeat before getting into the ring." Horsesh-t. He had early round KOs because he was a monster and even guys trying to run away from him in the ring couldn't get away from his power, speed, and quickness.

Flat out would have destroyed the old time fighters in their prime.

Iron Mike was one of a kind. Power, speed, ferocity, quickness, precision - nobody even comes close to Mike in his prime.

Tyson may have been of a "newer" generation compared to those others, but he (trained by D'Amato) was as classicly trained as much, if not more than guys like Frazier or Norton or Holmes.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I saw Ali and Frazier and Foreman and all of them fight, going back into the late 70s.

Ali is the most overrated fighter in the history of the sport. His cultural importance, civil rights status, and so on, contribute greatly to his perceived might in the ring.

Footwork and jabs would not have helped Ali. Tyson in his prime would have cut the ring off and annihilated Ali. That's why Tyson in his prime is the best ever.

Old timers and purists hate Tyson because of who he was as a person - rapist, ear biter, and so on.

He would knock guys out with a grazing left hook like he was fighting children. He'd go entire fights and not get hit.

Ali would dance around for 12 rounds trying to cut the other guy.

Tyson haters like to believe that Tyson got so many early round KOs because guys were "afraid of him" or had "talked themselves into defeat before getting into the ring." Horsesh-t. He had early round KOs because he was a monster and even guys trying to run away from him in the ring couldn't get away from his power, speed, and quickness.

Flat out would have destroyed the old time fighters in their prime.

Iron Mike was one of a kind. Power, speed, ferocity, quickness, precision - nobody even comes close to Mike in his prime.

Who did Tyson beat that was good? Tyson is like Boise State, sure that early record and 'scores' are impressive, but once he faced any kind of competition he caved. Never honed his game against other great fighters. That's the problem with Tyson fan-boys, they choose to overlook what happened in the ring and blame it on trainers, lifestyle etc... The results are the results and if he was as great as you think, Tyson would have never lost. I really liked early Tyson as a fighter too, other than the fact that he spoiled a few pay-per-view parties with quick knockouts I thoroughly enjoyed his career and was in from early on. Out of the ring doesn't matter, my diminished view of him is based on the fact that he under-achieved - also not incidentally Tyson is indisputably not nearly as smart as Ali & crowd - that helps when you are battling tough, savy and strategic fighters.

Disagree strongly about Ali. The Frazier and Norton bouts were slugfests. Ali could fight a number of different ways unlike Tyson who only had one style. If nothing else since Dundee was always in Ali's corner he would have figured Tyson out even if you contend peak Tyson was superior.

The fact that 40yr old Foreman came back and dominated early Tyson era heavyweights says a lot too. IF Ali is over-rated its because he did so much, Tyson it is the opposite - Iron Mike barely scratched his potential so people inflate who he was based on the early upward trajectory that flattened out and then nosedived.

 

[Kitaman]

Ali was not overated. He fought everybody and anybody. He never quit and had the heart of a Champion. Respect that he went through the toughest guantlet of heavyweights in the history of boxing. Sure he was cocky and got into his opponents head but he needed every edge he could get. Those were some big and bad dudes he fought many which were equal to Tyson.

 

[Cheeky]

Ali was not overated. He fought everybody and anybody. He never quit and had the heart of a Champion. Respect that he went through the toughest guantlet of heavyweights in the history of boxing. Sure he was cocky and got into his opponents head but he needed every edge he could get. Those were some big and bad dudes he fought many which were equal to Tyson.

Ali was awesome, no doubt. He had the benefit of being champ in the golden age of boxing.

Tyson was 50 and 5, of which 3 losses were right when he hung it up. It's completely dumb to say he "caved." Other than the end, when he wasn't himself, Buster got a fluke win and Hollyfield got a nice win in the 11th round of 12. Come on. Clearly you hate the guy.

In any case, I never said he had the best career or was the best fighter of all time.

I simply said that, in his prime, he was better than everybody else, and by a lot.

 

[Hoophound]

Ali was awesome, no doubt. He had the benefit of being champ in the golden age of boxing. Tyson was 50 and 5, of which 3 losses were right when he hung it up. It's completely ed to say he "caved." Other than the end, when he wasn't himself, Buster got a fluke win and Hollyfield got a nice win in the 11th round of 12. Come on. Clearly you hate the guy. In any case, I never said he had the best career or was the best fighter of all time. I simply said that, in his prime, he was better than everybody else, and by a lot.

I agree with Cheeky. Tyson's prime was just very short and then the coke and other issues took over. In his prime he was so fast and powerful it was inhuman.

 

[Kitaman]

Ali was awesome, no doubt. He had the benefit of being champ in the golden age of boxing.

Tyson was 50 and 5, of which 3 losses were right when he hung it up. It's completely ed to say he "caved." Other than the end, when he wasn't himself, Buster got a fluke win and Hollyfield got a nice win in the 11th round of 12. Come on. Clearly you hate the guy.

In any case, I never said he had the best career or was the best fighter of all time.

I simply said that, in his prime, he was better than everybody else, and by a lot.

I admired Tyson and he is certainly one of the best fighters of all time and the most feared. I was only talking about Ali called overated.

 

[B1GEast]

I miss heavy weight boxing

 

[Waquoit]

Couldn't Larry Holmes beat Tyson? He was much bigger and knew how to box. And could Tyson hit him harder than Earnie Shavers?

 

[Excalibur]

The fact that 40yr old Foreman came back and dominated early Tyson era heavyweights says a lot too. IF Ali is over-rated its because he did so much, Tyson it is the opposite - Iron Mike barely scratched his potential so people inflate who he was based on the early upward trajectory that flattened out and then nosedived.

Foreman didn't face anyone of note until he fought Cooney, who was ancient at the time as well. Saying that he fought the same guys Tyson did is misleading. If he did, he fought them when they were significantly older.

The difference in Tyson's approach and mechanics after 1989 is noticeable. His balance was off, and he didn't punch nearly as efficiently. Yes, the heavyweight division was pretty shallow in the late 1980's, but when he had proper instruction and wasn't crashing his car, snorting lines and slapping his wife around, he was a machine.

 

[CAHUSKY]

I miss heavy weight boxing

Me too. And welter weight. Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Breeland, etc in the 80's/early 90's was absolutely must see TV

 

[Kitaman]

Me too. And welter weight. Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Breeland, etc in the 80's/early 90's was absolutely must see TV

And a lot of good boxers in all weight classes: Boom Boom, Camacho, Alexis Arguello, Aaron Pryor, Julio Caesar Chavez even Pernell Whitaker (exciting to watch).

HBO was the hot ticket back in the day, until PPV took over and farked everything up.

 

[B1GEast]

The best fight I ever saw was a pair of cruiser weights, pompie vs trice I believe in 91. For 12 straight rounds these gguys battled, it could have been a draw, but I think pompie won, YouTube it, worth a watch

 

[seanmc94]

Tyson was a rudderless ship after Cus passed and he got away from Kevin Rooney. If you watch the espn show on the Douglas fight you see hop inept his handlers were. Left to his own devices; he crumbled. Properly handled, he was a top 5 all time heavyweight

 

[Deepster]

Me too. And welter weight. Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Breeland, etc in the 80's/early 90's was absolutely must see TV

NBC Sportsworld on Saturday afternoons used to carry great bouts. Aaron "The Hawk" Pryor, Alexis Arguello. I think even Marlon Starling may have been on there a couple times.

 

[Dogdeacon]

My stance on Tyson is more related to disagreeing with those that call him the best ever or even do so with the qualifier of saying at his peak he was the best. I'd like to know the best fighter he ever beat - is there anyone even in the top-50? When challenged he lost, them's the facts. I truly wish they were different and he had continued to get better, but since he didn't I simply react strongly to claims that he did.
If Tyson's best was so good he could and should have survived the personal turmoil and trainer dropoff and still beat Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis & all other comers. Tyson was undisputed champ for less than 3yrs = the claim that this is the best peak in heavyweight history is patently absurd.

 

[CallMeBruce]

My stance on Tyson is more related to disagreeing with those that call him the best ever or even do so with the qualifier of saying at his peak he was the best. I'd like to know the best fighter he ever beat - is there anyone even in the top-50? When challenged he lost, them's the facts. I truly wish they were different and he had continued to get better, but since he didn't I simply react strongly to claims that he did.
If Tyson's best was so good he could and should have survived the personal turmoil and trainer dropoff and still beat Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis & all other comers. Tyson was undisputed champ for less than 3yrs = the claim that this is the best peak in heavyweight history is patently absurd.

I think that, for my generation, the overall opinion on Mike Tyson is largely informed by how impossible he was to beat in Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!!

 

[Dogdeacon]

I think that, for my generation, the overall opinion on Mike Tyson is largely informed by how impossible he was to beat in Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!!

Don't sleep on that. 99.9%* of guys arguing Tyson belongs amongst histories' top heavyweights were 13-21 during his title reign playing Punch-Out heavily.

*the .1% is cheeky

 

[B1GEast]

The best fight I ever saw was a pair of cruiser weights, pompie vs trice I believe in 91. For 12 straight rounds these gguys battled, it could have been a draw, but I think pompie won, YouTube it, worth a watch

 

[B1GEast]

 

[Marat]

Regarding greatest fight rounds/endings, this has to be up there as well:

Diego Corrales vs Jose Luis Castillo (Round 10)