OT: Tom Brady GOAT

[Adios]

Harmless organic stuff.

And it actually produces far better results than traditional western approaches to deal with some issues. Even crippling pain.

 

[Adios]

.....so it seems that Patriots fans value post season success more than regular season success.

Who doesn't?

 

[Husky25]

I think that comment is more so what the success is attributed. Because quarterbacks are not by definition “system” players. Some dudes just have great arms (Rodgers, Ben, Rivers) or legs (Wilson, Vick). The specific system put in place benefits some QBs. The next logical step in that argument is the question of how successful Brady would be outside of Belichick’s system; how great we would consider him if he played 15 years in Cincinnati or Houston or Buffalo

Sure they are.

If quarterbacks are not by definition “system” players, then how can you say, "The specific system put in place benefits some QBs."?

QB are defined by a system because the game of American football is extremely system-centric. It's the nature of the game. Brady has played equally well for Charlie Weis, Josh McDaniel, and Bill O'Brien. In Brady's case, the "system" evolved around the QB (2001 was a lot of short passes and moving the chains) rather than plugging the QB. Just like for Peyton Manning. Once he established himself, no matter who was his offensive coordinator or head coach, Manning was author of the offense. He dictated the "system."

 

[superjohn]

For sure, you're right. Brady is taking steroids, which explains his massive muscles.

HGH way more likely.

 

[Adios]

Perhaps Brady IS the Patriots' system? Geez.

 

[Husky25]

One could argue Joe Montana - four rings, never lost one and a slew of post season and super bowl records. This has been compared many times - Brady has better regular season comps, but Montana better in the biggest spot. Patriots fans have dismissed Peyton Manning inclusion in any conversation because he only had regular season success so it seems that Patriots fans value post season success more than regular season success.

The same dynamic existed there - who got the credit - coach or player and oddly enough both had more than competent back-up QB's. Now I'm not saying Jimmy G is Steve Young, but his early results seems to point to him having success.

I'm not a Niners or a Pats fan.

Montana is undefeated in Super Bowls and Brady is not. The argument would exists only if all things were equal. In other words, if Montana went to 7 (now 8) Super Bowls. He did not. He went to four.

Montana is 4-0 in the Super Bowl, but is 4-3 in the Conference Championship Game. Brady has a 5-2 Super Bowl record and is 8-4 in Conference championship. Brady has won more Super Bowls, been to more of them, as well as been to more Conference Championship games.

Look at it in pseudo medal terms (Gold, Silver, Bronze).

Montana's medal count (best case, assuming his team won the bronze medal game) would be 4-0-3. Brady's would be at least 5-2-4, with a guaranteed silver or better to come.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Sure they are.

If quarterbacks are not by definition “system” players, then how can you say, "The specific system put in place benefits some QBs."?

QB are defined by a system because the game of American football is extremely system-centric. It's the nature of the game. Brady has played equally well for Charlie Weis, Josh McDaniel, and Bill O'Brien. In Brady's case, the "system" evolved around the QB (2001 was a lot of short passes and moving the chains) rather than plugging the QB. Just like for Peyton Manning. Once he established himself, no matter who was his offensive coordinator or head coach, Manning was author of the offense. He dictated the "system."

I’ll refer you to a post I made in reply to Upstater in which I explicitly state that I still give Brady credit for making the throws, and that if I were a Pats fan, my main retort is exactly what you said: that several coordinators have come through NE and Brady has won under them all

 

[upstater]

Montana is 4-0 in the Super Bowl, but is 4-3 in the Conference Championship Game. Brady has a 5-2 Super Bowl record and is 8-4 in Conference championship. Brady has won more Super Bowls, been to more of them, as well as been to more Conference Championship games.

I never understood this argument either.

Almost like saying UConn's 4 championships > Duke's 5 championships because Duke has been to 16 Final Fours.

 

[Husky25]

I’ll refer you to a post I made in reply to Upstater in which I explicitly state that I still give Brady credit for making the throws, and that if I were a Pats fan, my main retort is exactly what you said: that several coordinators have come through NE and Brady has won under them all

I will guarantee that NO ONE in the NFL goes into a huddle and says/hears, "Number 83, you do an out. Number 34, I'm gonna fake a hand off to you, Number 14, run down the field as fast as you can, I'm looking for you. You fat guys just make sure I don't get hit." No, they all have a systematic process how they call and play the game and plays theoretically build upon what happens during preceding called plays. It's inherent. Obviously, credit has to be given to execution but that and planning go hand in hand. They cannot be separated. The Patriots have a system, to be sure. So does Cincinnati, Houston, and Buffalo. The difference is the latter three are forced to change the pieces far more often and far more drastically than what happens in Foxborough.

 

[upstater]

Clutch

 

[Paesano]

Clutch

Yep, they are a walking, talking miracle. Reminds me of Lance Armstrong.

 

[mauconnfan]

This ref meme is the funniest one of all.

The Jaguars had 5 more penalties than the Patriots.

4 of them were pre-snap penalties!!!! Delay of game, illegal motion, false start, etc.!!!

So we're talking about the pass interference only, but yet people like you will bring up 6-1 in penalties!

The biggest one was a wrong call, no PI on the sideline pass to Cooks - no brainer too. 2 guys fighting each other, guess where the fall went? LOL in a very important time nonetheless.

They earned no bitch here but have some fun, it's funny don't be so defensive that label has been earned a little too.

 

[upstater]

The biggest one was a wrong call, no PI on the sideline pass to Cooks - no brainer too. 2 guys fighting each other, guess where the fall went? LOL in a very important time nonetheless.

They earned no bitch here but have some fun, it's funny don't be so defensive that label has been earned a little too.

You guys are the ones so upset, you're not having fun at all. You think I'm not having fun?

So the meme comes down to one bad PI call that happens every week? Really?

And you know that if the shoe were on the other foot with Lewis's fumble, people would be screaming everywhere that he was down with control. That play was the equivalent of the Seferian-Jenkins play.

 

[upstater]

Yep, they are a walking, talking miracle. Reminds me of Lance Armstrong.

Yep, the Patriots are all on steroids. That must be it.

 

[Scoe]

That actually was interference on Bayou near the end of the half you can't grab the guys arm the officials got that one right. It was a dumb penalty because he was running stride for stride with Cooks. The Jags got the turnover but couldn't capitalize off of it not only that but a quick 3 and out, so its as if the turnover never happened.

 

[mauconnfan]

You guys are the ones so upset, you're not having fun at all. You think I'm not having fun?

So the meme comes down to one bad PI call that happens every week? Really?

And you know that if the shoe were on the other foot with Lewis's fumble, people would be screaming everywhere that he was down with control. That play was the equivalent of the Seferian-Jenkins play.

He had no control it was the right call, no one could argue that one not a good analogy.

Dude I said a positive thing about Brady then threw a very funny meme in, I'm good they won they're damn good and one coach, who is the best went in at the half and adjusted defensively like he does, great win. Jags put up a fight I enjoyed the game, no skin in it. Now for the only time in history I will root for the Eagles, man that just sounds wrong.

 

[Waquoit]

It's truly enjoyable watching the Pats kick ass year after year.

 

[Deepster]

Here are the last 8 seasons. They're 38-10 against the AFC East. They won the division all 8 years. Got a bye every year and played nothing but home playoff games except for 2 AFC Title games (which they lost both).

If you can't say that the mediocrity of this division hasn't helped their cause, you're either a) not smart or b) making an outright choice to refuse facts, data and logic.

2017 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2016 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2015 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2014 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2013 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2012 = 6-0 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC at home against Baltimore)
2011 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2010 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss at home against NY Jets)

 

[mauconnfan]

Here are the last 8 seasons. They're 38-10 against the AFC East. They won the division all 8 years. Got a bye every year and played nothing but home playoff games except for 2 AFC Title games (which they lost both).

If you can't say that the mediocrity of this division hasn't helped their cause, you're either a) not smart or b) making an outright choice to refuse facts, data and logic.

2017 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2016 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2015 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2014 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2013 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2012 = 6-0 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC at home against Baltimore)
2011 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2010 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss at home against NY Jets)

And this from a J E T S fan

 

[Waquoit]

The Pats aren't lucky that the division sucks, it's because of the Pats that the division sucks. Decent coaches won't take jobs in the AFC East because they don't want to face BB twice a year. The home games are well deserved, a reward for consistent excellence.

 

[superjohn]

Yep, the Patriots are all on steroids. That must be it.

Half the league is on roids or growth hormone. There is very little chance Brady isn't using HGH.

 

[upstater]

He had no control it was the right call, no one could argue that one not a good analogy.

Dude I said a positive thing about Brady then threw a very funny meme in, I'm good they won they're damn good and one coach, who is the best went in at the half and adjusted defensively like he does, great win. Jags put up a fight I enjoyed the game, no skin in it. Now for the only time in history I will root for the Eagles, man that just sounds wrong.

I didn't say it wasn't the right call. I'm just referring to the overall loser mentality of most NFL fans. It was exactly like ASF of the Jets. Fumbled it, grabbed it while on the ground, but only for a second. Not a TD.

 

[upstater]

Here are the last 8 seasons. They're 38-10 against the AFC East. They won the division all 8 years. Got a bye every year and played nothing but home playoff games except for 2 AFC Title games (which they lost both).

If you can't say that the mediocrity of this division hasn't helped their cause, you're either a) not smart or b) making an outright choice to refuse facts, data and logic.

2017 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2016 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2015 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2014 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2013 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2012 = 6-0 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC at home against Baltimore)
2011 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2010 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss at home against NY Jets)

Their dynasty has been going on for 17 years, but even using the last 8 seasons as a starting point, they are worse against their division than the rest of the NFL.

80.2% against the rest of the league.
77.5% against the AFCE.

The division may be horrible. The rest of the NFL is even worse.

So how are they helped if they have a worse record against the division?

If they were out of their division, clearly they'd have a better record (especially agains the AFC North, which is the example you gave earlier, since they are 79% against the Steelers and Ravens, & would get 2 automatic wins against the Browns).

 

[StoweD210]

Anyone else think the Jags made a mistake by sitting on the ball at the end of the 1st half. They had enough time and TO's to try for a FG. To be the man you have to beat the man, not turtle.

In the playoff games against the Bills and Steelers, Jacksonville was aggressive, going for it on 4th and goal and scoring TDs in both cases. Yesterday, with 55 seconds left in the half and 2 TOs, Marrone gets as conservative as possible and lets the clock run to end the half. Obviously, it's a different situation being on your own 25 versus being on the opponent's 1 yard line, but you would think, given what was at stake, you would try at least one play to see if you could pick up 10-15 yards.

Also, on the possession before that, Marrone basically gave the Patriots an extra time out when he punted with the clock running before the 2 minute warning. He could have let the clock go to the 2 minute warning, then punted and left New England with a little less time and only one TO to work with. Marrone deserves credit for getting the team into the playoffs and to the AFCCG, but he wasn't at his sharpest at the end of the first half.

 

[Husky25]

Here are the last 8 seasons. They're 38-10 against the AFC East. They won the division all 8 years. Got a bye every year and played nothing but home playoff games except for 2 AFC Title games (which they lost both).

If you can't say that the mediocrity of this division hasn't helped their cause, you're either a) not smart or b) making an outright choice to refuse facts, data and logic.

2017 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2016 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2015 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2014 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2013 = 4-2 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC @Denver)
2012 = 6-0 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss in AFCC at home against Baltimore)
2011 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 2 home games – SB appearance)
2010 = 5-1 (1st rd bye + 1 home game – Loss at home against NY Jets)

That means they were:
2017 = 8-2
2016 = 9-1
2015 = 8-2
2014 = 8-2
2013 = 8-2
2012 = 6-4
2011 = 8-2
2010 = 9-1

Against non-division opponents, for an .800 win%. .791% vs division in same time span. There is a choice C.