OT - Tiger/Masters Talk

[Leebo]

Why would it bother you? They were "cheaters" after all.

 

[CAHUSKY]

Can you give an example of a player signing an incorrect scorecard and not being DQed?

For the record I think golf's rule of assessing penalties after a scorecard is signed and then DQing players for it is complete BS. Reeks of "gotcha" and of double jeopardy. But that rule has been uniformly enforced for decades.

It's a new rule. There aren't any other examples because the rule didn't exist.

 

[superjohn]

It's a new rule. There aren't any other examples because the rule didn't exist. For some reason Chin doesn't seem to understand this.

 

[Chin Diesel]

It's a new rule. There aren't any other examples because the rule didn't exist.

The rule for being Qed for signing an incorrect scorecard has been forever.

The rule giving tournament officials leeway is the new rule.

Undoubtedly they used every bit of the grey area of the rules towards favoring Tiger.

 

[arnie3]

This is Tiger's summation of what he did. It doesn't sound like he's a cheater, but in turn accepting a decision that even the rules committee at first got wrong:

“Their initial determination was that there was no violation, but they had additional concerns based on my post-round interview. After discussing the situation with them this morning, I was assessed a two-shot penalty. I understand and accept the penalty and respect the Committees’ decision.”

Oh, and Nick Faldo who had initially asked for Tiger to DQ himself, later recanted when he heard what the committee's action's were. It's a bit upsetting when you realize that he hit a near perfect shot that caromed off the flag stick into the water for a penalty. It's a rather bizarre circumstance, and to a golfer, unnerving. I used to play high school golf and once lost on the eighteenth hole in a tie match to a guy hitting his second shot off the pin and straight down into the hole. It was very depressing, but after I thought about it, I realized that I might never see a shot like that again in my life. Of course, that was years later after I had given up golf!

 

[gtcam]

He snuck by under the recent HDTV influenced rule- if a player breaks a rule and states they are ignorant of the fact and the on course umpires/officials don't pick it up BUT if someone notices it after the fact via TV or replay and the PGA officials have said that they leave it up to the individual tournament officials whether to DQ or simply give a 2 stroke penalty. This is the Masters, Tiger is a main draw - what do you think Master officials are going to do?
The benefit and disadvantage guys like Tiger have is that nearly EVERY stroke they make is on TV. If Joe Blow had done it, it probably would not have been noticed at all.
IF Tiger wins - is there an * put by this major victory? He should not have been so pious in stating that "rules are rules" when asked about the penalty given to the 14 yo Chinese kid for slow play.
His ego won't allow it but I would like to have seen him WD with dignity.

 

[Chin Diesel]

He snuck by under the recent HDTV influenced rule- if a player breaks a rule and states they are ignorant of the fact and the on course umpires/officials don't pick it up BUT if someone notices it after the fact via TV or replay and the PGA officials have said that they leave it up to the individual tournament officials whether to DQ or simply give a 2 stroke penalty. This is the Masters, Tiger is a main draw - what do you think Master officials are going to do?
The benefit and disadvantage guys like Tiger have is that nearly EVERY stroke they make is on TV. If Joe Blow had done it, it probably would not have been noticed at all.
IF Tiger wins - is there an * put by this major victory? He should not have been so pious in stating that "rules are rules" when asked about the penalty given to the 14 yo Chinese kid for slow play.
His ego won't allow it but I would like to have seen him WD with dignity.

Better said in one post than I've said throughout this thread.

 

[Leebo]

It's silly to say that Tiger should have an asterisk, unless you think what he did was blatant cheating. Some apparently do think that.

 

[husky91]

I agree, no one else can do what he does, but he usually struggles with 1 or 2 pieces of his game that prevents him from winning. Unless he has a 65 or 66 tomm he's done and he won't be a remote factor @ Oakmont on the weekend. Prob the hardest course in the world after the USGA tricks it up, ahead of Carnoustie.

Which is exactly why he indeed is relevant and will likely win more majors. He can play poorly and still only be 2 strokes off the lead (if he hadn't been penalized)

 

[Perspective]

Some thoughts:

1. The ball hitting the stick, going in the water, and the 2 shot penalty, at the Masters, with Tiger in contention, is just plain the Gods f--- with Tiger. It took the wind out of his sails. Instead of sitting pretty looking at bird, he goes trip bogey. 4 stroke difference. He's tied if the stick and ball don't meet, and maybe better, with momentum.

2. Any talk of him being done is premature. Like in-your-pants premature. Other than the one bad break, the guy was all over it through 3 rounds. I'm not his fan, but to say he's done is silly. But see Gods comment in 1.

3. I LOVE Angel Cabrera. That guy, ironically, has an angel sitting on his shoulder.

You know what I love about him?

The Duck.
9 top ten finishes at Majors, won 2. Great ratio.

Got friggin ice in his veins. Guy is money. When he gets close, he gets BETTER. Very few men can say that about pressure time. Love it.

Smokes. I disapprove of the habit, but I love that he doesn't give two tinkers woof woof about it.

He's not marketable. I love that too. He looks like he doesn't belong. Except his cucumber cool play.

Can't wait for tomorrow. ANDALE Miguel!!

 

[husky91]

Umm, who knows what he's at. Go watch his 16-18 today, awful golf holes. He scrambles and hangs around, but he gives himself too few birdie opportunities. His driving is awful. His length used to allow him to hit his stinger and still have a low or mid range iron in, no more. Has to hit woods and just awful. If his short game wasn't strong this week he'd be 6-8 back.

He can't have huge portions of his game not working. Yes, he can win a number of Honda Classics with bad fields, but he will struggle to win another major. Best chance is 2015 open @ St Andrews.

No way he sniffs Jack's 18.

Are you new to golf? Nobody shoots under par at Augusta when only their putting looks decent, "and little else". If his approach doesn't hit that pin, he's sitting at -7 going into Sunday (it was a 4 stroke swing). You could even argue the he would be lower because he lost quite a bit of momentum. He's ranked first in the world for a reason. He is the best player in the world, hands down, not up for argument. I'm not a fanboy, it's just a basic fact. The fact that he's even near the leaders after what happened is crazy.

 

[gtcam]

It's silly to say that Tiger should have an asterisk, unless you think what he did was blatant cheating. Some apparently do think that.

No one SAID he should have an *. A question was asked

 

[gtcam]

Some thoughts:

1. The ball hitting the stick, going in the water, and the 2 shot penalty, at the Masters, with Tiger in contention, is just plain the Gods f--- with Tiger. It took the wind out of his sails. Instead of sitting pretty looking at bird, he goes trip bogey. 4 stroke difference. He's tied if the stick and ball don't meet, and maybe better, with momentum.

2. Any talk of him being done is premature. Like in-your-pants premature. Other than the one bad break, the guy was all over it through 3 rounds. I'm not his fan, but to say he's done is silly. But see Gods comment in 1.

3. I LOVE Angel Cabrera. That guy, ironically, has an angel sitting on his shoulder.

You know what I love about him?

The Duck.
9 top ten finishes at Majors, won 2. Great ratio.

Got friggin ice in his veins. Guy is money. When he gets close, he gets BETTER. Very few men can say that about pressure time. Love it.

Smokes. I disapprove of the habit, but I love that he doesn't give two tinkers woof woof about it.

He's not marketable. I love that too. He looks like he doesn't belong. Except his cucumber cool play.

Can't wait for tomorrow. ANDALE Miguel!!

Agreed - Angel is a cool guy - but how many times does he really compete for the hardware?

 

[UConn5]

I'm thinking that Tiger thought that he was able to drop on the same line as where the ball went over the water but no closer to the hole. He mistakenly thought the wrong rules applied to the drop, he acted in accord with what he thought were the applicable rules. The committee thought that he acted in accord with the rules that were actually applicable. They reviewed while he was playing and because of the timing, the only reason that Tiger would have been guilty of signing an incorrect score card is that the rules committee made a mistake as well.

If they had initially determined it was an improper drop then he would have had the 2 strokes reflected on his scorecard prior to signing and turning it in.

 

[Leebo]

No one SAID he should have an *. A question was asked

"I'm just asking the question" is just a cop out.

And I'm pretty sure Chin Diesel thought you were saying he should get an asterisk too.

 

[husky91]

Also, nothing better than speculating on what would be if something didn't happen, such as the ball hitting the stick. That is awesome, I wonder what would be different if Havlichek didn't steal the ball, Norwood makes that FG, MJ misses over Ehlo, Keith Smart doesn't make that shot, Norman makes the putt @ Augusta in '87, Roberts gets tagged out, etc. I could go on, this is awesome. We should have a whole thread.

Are you new to golf? Nobody shoots under par at Augusta when only their putting looks decent, "and little else". If his approach doesn't hit that pin, he's sitting at -7 going into Sunday (it was a 4 stroke swing). You could even argue the he would be lower because he lost quite a bit of momentum. He's ranked first in the world for a reason. He is the best player in the world, hands down, not up for argument. I'm not a fanboy, it's just a basic fact. The fact that he's even near the leaders after what happened is crazy.

 

[Fishy]

This isn't even a story if it isn't Tiger Woods.

It takes sack to call something cheating when it took some nitwit watching at home to call in and point out the violation.

Not a single soul on the golf course or in the broadcast booth that thought there was an issue.

 

[bear]

Umm, who knows what he's at. Go watch his 16-18 today, awful golf holes. He scrambles and hangs around, but he gives himself too few birdie opportunities. His driving is awful. His length used to allow him to hit his stinger and still have a low or mid range iron in, no more. Has to hit woods and just awful. If his short game wasn't strong this week he'd be 6-8 back.

He can't have huge portions of his game not working. Yes, he can win a number of Honda Classics with bad fields, but he will struggle to win another major. Best chance is 2015 open @ St Andrews.

No way he sniffs Jack's 18.

I don't even know why I'm responding to this because you're clearly uninformed on this topic so this is useless. He parred all three holes 16-18 today so I'm not sure how that's an argument for him having "huge portions of his game not working", pars are good scores on those holes. Augusta National is an incredibly hard golf course. Only 17 players are under par out of the 100 or so that started this week. He's 3 under and he should be 6 or 7 under.

Also, he didn't win the Honda Classic. Go look at the fields for Bay Hill and Doral (tournaments he did win), and you'll see they're very similar to Augusta. The bad field argument doesn't make sense at all if you look at those fields. He won 3 of the 4 stroke play tournaments he's played in this year prior to this week. Show me 1 golfer in the world capable of doing that.

 

[intlzncster]

This isn't even a story if it isn't Tiger Woods.

It takes sack to call something cheating when it took some nitwit watching at home to call in and point out the violation.

Not a single soul on the golf course or in the broadcast booth that thought there was an issue.

Thank you, I read through this whole thread and couldn't believe no one mentioned it. Was about to post something like this myself until you stole my thunder.

What kind of makes that call to the PGA Officials? Where would you even call? WTF? I bet that bunghole stickler-for-the-rules was so happy with himself too.

Also, people saying Tiger should WD are being sanctimonious wankers. The rules officials told him he was good to go. Once they realized they ducked up, they assessed the penalty. Done and done.

Much ado about nothing imo. Except for the who called in.

 

[husky91]

He drove basically into the pines on 17, 18 and put in trap on 16. No chance to make birdies. He scrambles better than anyone, but he's incapable of going real low at top tier courses because you have to be high GIRs with makable putts. His driving game is awful and if you listen to Chamblee he basically says Tiger can only win on courses with huge landing areas, which most major courses lack.

I don't even know why I'm responding to this because you're clearly uninformed on this topic so this is useless. He parred all three holes 16-18 today so I'm not sure how that's an argument for him having "huge portions of his game not working", pars are good scores on those holes. Augusta National is an incredibly hard golf course. Only 17 players are under par out of the 100 or so that started this week. He's 3 under and he should be 6 or 7 under.

Also, he didn't win the Honda Classic. Go look at the fields for Bay Hill and Doral (tournaments he did win), and you'll see they're very similar to Augusta. The bad field argument doesn't make sense at all if you look at those fields. He won 3 of the 4 stroke play tournaments he's played in this year prior to this week. Show me 1 golfer in the world capable of doing that.

 

[husky91]

Yes, where do these people even call and get heard? I was suprised to hear that the PGA even acknowledges these calls and they said they actually encourage it.

Thank you, I read through this whole thread and couldn't believe no one mentioned it. Was about to post something like this myself until you stole my thunder.

What kind of makes that call to the PGA Officials? Where would you even call? WTF? I bet that bunghole stickler-for-the-rules was so happy with himself too.

Also, people saying Tiger should WD are being sanctimonious wankers. The rules officials told him he was good to go. Once they realized they ducked up, they assessed the penalty. Done and done.

Much ado about nothing imo. Except for the who called in.

 

[Leebo]

Someone called the Augusta National clubhouse, according to the press conference they had.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Another angle.

Tiger's caddy f-ed up big time. Players can get caught up in the moment, brain fart, etc. But the caddy has to stay calm and make sure the drop is legal.

 

[husky91]

Wouldn't have been an issue until Tiger said be did he purposely to get a better length. If he didn't incriminate himself tourney officials would have left alone.

Another angle.

Tiger's caddy f-ed up big time. Players can get caught up in the moment, brain fart, etc. But the caddy has to stay calm and make sure the drop is legal.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Wouldn't have been an issue until Tiger said be did he purposely to get a better length. If he didn't incriminate himself tourney officials would have left alone.

Yeah but if the caddy intervenes there isn't any incriminating statement.

 

[blackbird]

This is where the myth of Tiger gets in the way of what Tiger actually does.

Tiger is great because he's the best putter. He had "stumbled" for a few years because his putting hadn't been as great. It's now returning, he's now winning.

Tiger ALWAYS scrambled. If he wasn't scrambling, the rest of the field has no chance. But Tiger has always been all over the golf course. So to say that he's done, because he's continuing to be all over the golf course..is silly.

 

[mauconnfan]

We have different definitions of "cheating".

Most pro golfers, current and retired, say he should be DQed. Either by the officials or by himself.

Greg Norman at the GHO is a good example of a doing what's right.[/quot

Norman is a real bad comparison - he didn't want to even be there Chin.....!! He was looking for an out......

 

[JayKoz]

Some of the people in this thread coming in to talk golf are making themselves look like complete fools.

Here's an absolute undeniable fact though.. If Tiger's ball doesn't hit the pin, he's tied and possibly in the outright lead.

Anyone thinking his career is "done" is absolutely clueless. Yeah, lets look at 3 holes and base our entire opinion of his golf game off of them. Logical.

 

[husky91]

Yes and really why he has never won a major w/o 54 hole lead. He can't catch guys, he gives himself too few legit chances in a round. Unless he plays a virtually flawless round and goes for a 66 or so he won't change that streak today.

His margin between the field is narrow and is really negative in these strong fields, the field is better. He may get another 1 or even 2 majors, but I doubt 4-5.

This is where the myth of Tiger gets in the way of what Tiger actually does.

Tiger is great because he's the best putter. He had "stumbled" for a few years because his putting hadn't been as great. It's now returning, he's now winning.

Tiger ALWAYS scrambled. If he wasn't scrambling, the rest of the field has no chance. But Tiger has always been all over the golf course. So to say that he's done, because he's continuing to be all over the golf course..is silly.

 

[husky91]

Here's an absolute undeniable fact though. If Tiger's ball doesn't hit the pin, he's tied and possibly in the outright lead.

It's only an undeniable fact that it did hit the stick and went in the drink. Will there be an asterisk it hit the stick on 15 and if it didn't Tiger could have won? And an asterisk for every other missed opportunity every other golfer had?

As for "done," that is winning and dominating majors. He may get 1-2 more, but that is getting harder and harder with each passing tourney where he doesn't. Fields are tougher, courses are more difficult and his game is losing its edge against both.