OT: Seth Davis on Geno/Wooden Comparison

[superjohn]

Why not? This isn't an on the court comparison as to who would win a mens vs. womens basketball game. This is a measure of coaching greatness. Why shouldn't we talk about two individuals dominating their respective environments for longer than a decade in Relatively the same manner? And in that relative discussion its absolutely relevant to give context to the sustained greatness by pointing to the parody in both games in their respective times.

Geno is an all time great coach, it doesn't matter if he was coaching womens basketball, baseball, tiddlywinks or badminton. He's still in the conversation with Wooden.

Because they are entirely different games and there is no parity in the women's game, I also wouldn't compare Anson Dorrance the North Carolina women's soccer coach to coach K or Calhoun. Even Geno has always said it's ridiculous to compare him and women's game to the men's game.

 

[OkaForPrez]

Because they are entirely different games and there is no parity in the women's game, I also wouldn't compare Anson Dorrance the North Carolina women's soccer coach to coach K or Calhoun. Even Geno has always said it's ridiculous to compare him and women's game to the men's game.

There was no parity in wooden era mens either. That's the point. It's in the OP.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Because they are entirely different games and there is no parity in the women's game, I also wouldn't compare Anson Dorrance the North Carolina women's soccer coach to coach K or Calhoun. Even Geno has always said it's ridiculous to compare him and women's game to the men's game.

He means in the mechanics and Xs and Os of the respective games. The way the men's game is played above the rim and the women's is more pass-oriented. Qualitative differences between game styles leaves them largely incomparable.

Parity, however, is an independent factor from the games themselves that absolutely can (and should) be compared. And, as was clearly spelled out in the article (please actually read it), the parity was at least as bad if not worse for the Bruins of the Wooden era, and for far more reasons than just getting the best recruits year in year out.

 

[ctchamps]

Oh fleudy I won't even start. OK I will - Inherited a much poorer program no doubt but the Yankee Conference Huskies weren't exactly lighting it up. And the argument would be it was MUCH tougher to build the men's program to where JC got it that Geno - again because of parity and Tennessee being pretty much the only team who was winning. Yeah the occasional candy, Purdue and a couple others but the Big East womens programs already sucked, the mens's programs were among the BEST on the country already and the best conference in the country if not # 2. Much tougher to climb from that cellar and there' son doubt about that.

Why can't people just leave it at Geno's the best womens' coach ever and leave the comparisons to Pat Summitt?

Only making it in respect to the context that Geno started from scratch and didn't inherit a cast of super star players. People only discuss he gets the best players and forget he started from nothing. That's not putting him above or even with JC. It's giving credit to his ability to get the program to that level where players want to play for him. Never said one coach was better than another. Just describing accomplishments. Big difference.

Now if we want to talk gender differences one can make a case that women are ,,,,

 

[mauconnfan]

Only making it in respect to the context that Geno started from scratch and didn't inherit a cast of super star players. People only discuss he gets the best players and forget he started from nothing. That's not putting him above or even with JC. It's giving credit to his ability to get the program to that level where players want to play for him. Never said one coach was better than another. Just describing accomplishments. Big difference.

Now if we want to talk gender differences one can make a case that women are ,,,,

Don't even think of finishing that one,,,,,,

 

[superjohn]

He means in the mechanics and Xs and Os of the respective games. The way the men's game is played above the rim and the women's is more pass-oriented. Qualitative differences between game styles leaves them largely incomparable.

Parity, however, is an independent factor from the games themselves that absolutely can (and should) be compared. And, as was clearly spelled out in the article (please actually read it), the parity was at least as bad if not worse for the Bruins of the Wooden era, and for far more reasons than just getting the best recruits year in year out.

I find the entire premise to be silly. Geno already has the women's record for most titles and Wooden will probably always have the men's record. I don't consider Wooden the best coach ever for many reasons, he's not even in my top 3 but when Geno breaks the women's record this year it shouldn't be considered passing Wooden, they are two entirely different games. No matter how many high school championships Bobby Hurley won with St. Anthony's it shouldn't be compared to Calhoun or coach K just as Wooden's titles should never be compared to Phil Jackson and Auerbach. It's media created nonsense to try and create a storyline and drum up interest.

 

[TasteofUConn]

And yet here we are discussing the two of them in the national media and in sports forums like adults (most of us).

We can respectfully differ. I respect you as an intelligent and entertaining poster who adds enjoyable content to this site. My opinion, which is different than yours, is that there is no relevant, worthwhile conversation that compares Men's BBall with Women's BBall. That's not a slight on the women at all, nor should it be viewed as such. I have massive respect for Auriema and the women's hoop team. But the comparison is forced, artificial, and is comparable to comparing broccoli to swiss steak - sure, they're both food, but that does not, ipso facto, warrant a comparison.

 

[mauconnfan]

NEXT

 

[Ricker]

There is always reasons that sports comparisons are irrelevant. Different era, different rules, different format, ... BUT Wooden himself followed UConn and the women's game and thought the women's game was better fundamental basketball, and, his family represented themselves at UConn to recognize exceeding the 88 game win streak. Their feeling was Wooden held the men's ncaa records, Geno held the women's records, and Geno was now holding the ncaa basketball records. The Wooden family didn't feel the accomplishments were less so I don't know why it is important to others to protect the men's game. Geno is the first to be uncomfortable with the comparisons, and, the first to make a self depreciating joke about meeting Wooden, only to have Wooden say at a later date that he hoped he would meet the young coach of the UConn women someday, completely forgetting he already had. I don't think there is anything terrible to speak their names in the same sentence.

 

[mauconnfan]

There is always reasons that sports comparisons are irrelevant. Different era, different rules, different format, ... BUT Wooden himself followed UConn and the women's game and thought the women's game was better fundamental basketball, and, his family represented themselves at UConn to recognize exceeding the 88 game win streak. Their feeling was Wooden held the men's ncaa records, Geno held the women's records, and Geno was now holding the ncaa basketball records. The Wooden family didn't feel the accomplishments were less so I don't know why it is important to others to protect the men's game. Geno is the first to be uncomfortable with the comparisons, and, the first to make a self depreciating joke about meeting Wooden, only to have Wooden say at a later date that he hoped he would meet the young coach of the UConn women someday, completely forgetting he already had. I don't think there is anything terrible to speak their names in the same sentence.

Let's be honest here though Ricker, he was 90 something and I agree that the UConn women play the game the way UCLA did in the 60's. That kid of says enough about it to be honest LOL, below the rim, pass a lot more no doubt etc etc, but reality is they can because when they play teams they beat by 50-60 they can run any offensive set they dream up and be successful. Even if the other team figures it out and practices against it they don't have the players to stop anything not the athleticism to do it. The mens game coaches make adjustments and you can't run your sets so there is a lot more creativity in the game due to the athleticism of many teams you play against all year being equal or even better. Again, different world not even close. Keep them over there where they belong and he's the best ever. Can't even compare, but I can see why a 90 year old would he couldn't keep up with a mens college game I'm sure. Great guy, but obviously lost some common sense.

 

[superjohn]

There is always reasons that sports comparisons are irrelevant. Different era, different rules, different format, ... BUT Wooden himself followed UConn and the women's game and thought the women's game was better fundamental basketball, and, his family represented themselves at UConn to recognize exceeding the 88 game win streak. Their feeling was Wooden held the men's ncaa records, Geno held the women's records, and Geno was now holding the ncaa basketball records. The Wooden family didn't feel the accomplishments were less so I don't know why it is important to others to protect the men's game. Geno is the first to be uncomfortable with the comparisons, and, the first to make a self depreciating joke about meeting Wooden, only to have Wooden say at a later date that he hoped he would meet the young coach of the UConn women someday, completely forgetting he already had. I don't think there is anything terrible to speak their names in the same sentence.

Clearly Wooden had reached the point of senility if he thought the women's game was better fundamental basketball. I respect Geno as a great coach and always liked his take on things until I heard him say recently that the men's game is a joke, there is a reason no one outside the state of Connecticut cares about women's basketball.

 

[ctchamps]

Clearly Wooden had reached the point of senility if he thought the women's game was better fundamental basketball. I respect Geno as a great coach and always liked his take on things until I heard him say recently that the men's game is a joke, there is a reason no one outside the state of Connecticut cares about women's basketball.

Never said the men's game is a joke. His criticism was that a lot of the fundamentals in the game were no longer being taught. He loved Wooden. Follows NBA basketball and men's college bb.

 

[superjohn]

Never said the men's game is a joke. His criticism was that a lot of the fundamentals in the game were no longer being taught. He loved Wooden. Follows NBA basketball and men's college bb.

"Having said that, I think the game is a joke. It really is. I don’t coach it. I don’t play it, so I don’t understand all the ins and outs of it. But as a spectator, forget that I’m a coach, as a spectator, watching it, it’s a joke. There’s only like ten teams, you know, out of 25, that actually play the kind of game of basketball that you’d like to watch." -Geno Auriemma

 

[ctchamps]

"Having said that, I think the game is a joke. It really is. I don’t coach it. I don’t play it, so I don’t understand all the ins and outs of it. But as a spectator, forget that I’m a coach, as a spectator, watching it, it’s a joke. There’s only like ten teams, you know, out of 25, that actually play the kind of game of basketball that you’d like to watch." -Geno Auriemma

He understands as much as the most sophisticated poster in this forum the men's game. There are some people who, when they say things it's literal. Geno isn't one of them.

I can understand if people chose to hold this quote over him. I've heard this quote and people are failing to distinguish he's referring to the style of play in men's bb versus condemnation of men's bb (gender war).

It's a style criticism. It's no different than people who hate the half court bog downs we so frequently observe. It's no different than people who would love to see UConn go to an uptempo game. It's no different than people who don't like seeing guys dribble at the top of the key for an entire possession and than take a last second contested shot.

He's a perfectionist. He looks at games through the eyes of someone who knows what the optimum game can be and insists on those standards. He's more critical of the women's game because of the failure of coaches to produce those standards. But go ahead and make this into something bigger than an insistence on standards.

 

[superjohn]

He understands as much as the most sophisticated poster in this forum the men's game. There are some people who, when they say things it's literal. Geno isn't one of them.

I can understand if people chose to hold this quote over him. I've heard this quote and people are failing to distinguish he's referring to the style of play in men's bb versus condemnation of men's bb (gender war).

It's a style criticism. It's no different than people who hate the half court bog downs we so frequently observe. It's no different than people who would love to see UConn go to an uptempo game. It's no different than people who don't like seeing guys dribble at the top of the key for an entire possession and than take a last second contested shot.

He's a perfectionist. He looks at games through the eyes of someone who knows what the optimum game can be and insists on those standards. He's more critical of the women's game because of the failure of coaches to produce those standards. But go ahead and make this into something bigger than an insistence on standards.

You tell me he never said the men's game is a joke so I give you the direct quote where he says the men's game is a joke and you tell me I'm wrong because I don't glean the same meaning from what he said that you do. I know exactly what he said, the men's game is a bigger joke than the women's game because there is a lack of scoring. I'm most offended that he doesn't seem to recognize this lack in scoring in the men's game is due to the insane level of defense played in the sport and not a lack of skills and fundamentals in the male players. In fact he says attributing good defense to a lack in scoring is pure nonsense, his statements are a headscratcher.

 

[David 76]

You can't compare the women's game to the men's. If they played, the men would win 100 out of 100. The men's game is more competitive. On and on.

But what some are missing is that no one is making that comparison. We are comparing two coaches achievements in separate, developing, non-parity, basketball situations. You can point out that the women's game isn't as competitive as the men's over and over. It is not the point. In fact, it took Geno longer win 10 NCs.. Geno could not have the run Wooden had. Wooden didn't have a Pat Summit (the second best coach of history) to contend with.
You can say Geno gets all the best players, but he was a man in a women's game, going against a legend and near legends to try and establish a program. So, he didn't get all the best players.

Two outstanding, I would say genius, coaches who totally dominated their version of basketball and raised the bar during a period of development in their sport. Wooden couldn't do it in this era of men's basketball. And I believe that Geno would not be able be able to replicate his accomplishments 20-30 years from now either.

 

[ctchamps]

You tell me he never said the men's game is a joke so I give you the direct quote where he says the men's game is a joke and you tell me I'm wrong because I don't glean the same meaning from what he said that you do. I know exactly what he said, the men's game is a bigger joke than the women's game because there is a lack of scoring. I'm most offended that he doesn't seem to recognize this lack in scoring in the men's game is due to the insane level of defense played in the sport and not a lack of skills and fundamentals in the male players. In fact he says attributing good defense to a lack in scoring is pure nonsense, his statements are a headscratcher.

You got me on the quote department. But you neglected to finish quoting all his comments. His rant was over the entertainment quality of the game. It's focus was about getting fans to arenas. Did he discuss things in detail? Did he touch all the salient points why attendance is declining with this rant? Absolutely not. Is it even valid? I think there is some validity. But you are taking his position and applying it to a view on men's and women's bb versus his view on how the sport is failing to consider improving its entertainment value. That he mentions men's bb is further behind in fixing this is not necessarily a dig on men's bb.


And the bottom line is that nobody can score, and they’ll tell you it’s because of great defense, great scouting, a lot of team work, nonsense, nonsense. College men’s basketball is so far behind the times it’s unbelievable. I mean women’s basketball is behind the times. Men’s basketball is even further behind the times.

Every other major sport in the world has taken steps to help people be better on the offensive end of the floor. They’ve moved in the fences in baseball, they lowered the mound. They made the strike zone so you need a straw to put through it. And in the NFL you touch a guy it’s a penalty. You hit the quarterback, you’re out for life. You know, in the NBA, you touch somebody in the perimeter, you whack guys like they used to do when scores were 90 to 75, they changed the rules.

This is entertainment we’re talking about. People have to decide, do I want to play 25 bucks, 30 bucks to go see a college scrum where everybody misses six out of every ten shots they take, or do I want to go to a movie? We’re fighting for the entertainment dollar, here, and I have to tell you it’s not entertainment from a fan’s standpoint.

 

[superjohn]

You got me on the quote department. But you neglected to finish quoting all his comments. His rant was over the entertainment quality of the game. It's focus was about getting fans to arenas. Did he discuss things in detail? Did he touch all the salient points why attendance is declining with this rant? Absolutely not. Is it even valid? I think there is some validity. But you are taking his position and applying it to a view on men's and women's bb versus his view on how the sport is failing to consider improving its entertainment value. That he mentions men's bb is further behind in fixing this is not necessarily a dig on men's bb.


And the bottom line is that nobody can score, and they’ll tell you it’s because of great defense, great scouting, a lot of team work, nonsense, nonsense. College men’s basketball is so far behind the times it’s unbelievable. I mean women’s basketball is behind the times. Men’s basketball is even further behind the times.

Every other major sport in the world has taken steps to help people be better on the offensive end of the floor. They’ve moved in the fences in baseball, they lowered the mound. They made the strike zone so you need a straw to put through it. And in the NFL you touch a guy it’s a penalty. You hit the quarterback, you’re out for life. You know, in the NBA, you touch somebody in the perimeter, you whack guys like they used to do when scores were 90 to 75, they changed the rules.

This is entertainment we’re talking about. People have to decide, do I want to play 25 bucks, 30 bucks to go see a college scrum where everybody misses six out of every ten shots they take, or do I want to go to a movie? We’re fighting for the entertainment dollar, here, and I have to tell you it’s not entertainment from a fan’s standpoint.

That's fair it just seems silly and unnecessary that he's taking his biggest shot at men's basketball which people watch. Outside of some grandparents in Connecticut most everyone finds women's basketball unwatchable.

 

[EricLA]

No one is comparing the men's game to the women's game - It's not like tennis where the games look similar but the men are just faster and stronger (or track and field for that matter). People are comparing the accomplishments. I see zero wrong with that. BUT they have accomplished different things. Why is it ok for tennis fans to say that Margaret court (24) and Steffi Graf (22) have won the most grand slams ahead of Federer (17) on the all time list? But it's not ok to say that Geno may well pass Wooden's 10 NC's?

I think everyone knows men are not the same as women. But I don't get the desire of men's fans to downplay what Geno has accomplished, even in comparison to Wooden. Who is saying he could have coached men better? No one. Just stating that the facts are that Geno has equaled Wooden's record - it's something all UCONN fans should be proud of.

Of course Geno is going to say it's not the same. AND IT'S NOT. But in sheer numbers, he's accomplished a dynasty in his own sport that is the greatest of all time. Is he a "better" coach than Wooden? Who the hell cares? Different sports, different eras, but his numbers are 2nd to none... across all college basketball genres...

 

[intlzncster]

That's fair it just seems silly and unnecessary that he's taking his biggest shot at men's basketball which people watch. Outside of some grandparents in Connecticut most everyone finds women's basketball unwatchable.

Not taking the women's side at all in this, but the ratings for late women's tournament games are usually very good. It's more than CT grandparents.

 

[Tenspro2002]

I think it's reasonable to argue that Men's NCAA basketball in the 60's and 70's is comparable to Women's NCAA basketball today, especially when it comes to the difficulty of winning multiple championships in a short period of time.

Both Wooden and Geno:

1) Competed in a period where here's relatively little parity (only ~5 teams start the season with a reasonable expectation of winning the championship)
2) Got most of the top players
3) Had those players stick around for 3-4 years
4) Were all but guaranteed a trip to the Final Four every year by having few competitive games and a geographical advantage in the early rounds of the NCAAT

What sets them both apart relative to their peers within their respective eras is their ability to demand and coax excellence from their players and their ability to win that last game (both 10-0 in championship games).

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

That's fair it just seems silly and unnecessary that he's taking his biggest shot at men's basketball which people watch. Outside of some grandparents in Connecticut most everyone finds women's basketball unwatchable.

You're fighting silly hyperbole with more silly hyperbole.

Incidentally, I love basketball and I find college basketball getting more and more difficult to sit through. It's just not an entertaining product to me, outside of a handful of teams.

 

[superjohn]

Not taking the women's side at all in this, but the ratings for late women's tournament games are usually very good. It's more than CT grandparents.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/03/29/college-basketball I remember reading the title game got a good rating but the sport is not watched much overall and the WNBA is a huge drag on the NBA.

 

[superjohn]

You're fighting silly hyperbole with more silly hyperbole.

Incidentally, I love basketball and I find college basketball getting more and more difficult to sit through. It's just not an entertaining product to me, outside of a handful of teams.

It's not hyperbole when I say I've yet to meet a women's basketball fan outside of CT. and I've lived out of state for many years and travel a fair amount. Be honest, do you know any women's basketball fans outside of Connecticut? Trust me I love what Geno does and always root for the Uconn women in big games but let's not try and make it out like the sport is at all popular or moves the needle even a little in the whole scheme of things in college athletics.

 

[intlzncster]

http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/03/29/college-basketball I remember reading the title game got a good rating but the sport is not watched much overall and the WNBA is a huge drag on the NBA.

Def not talking about the WNBA. That's a dud. That the players making more money overseas says it all.