OT- Pete Carroll

[Scoe]

You don't waste a play when you need a TD to win the game, maybe you waste a play if you need a FG to win.

 

[superjohn]

I'm giving you actual facts. I don't have the stats to show whether a slant is more likely to cause an interception or not.

On the goal-line passes are rarely intercepted, and if you look at the picture there's literally no one else there. Everyone keeps talking about how congested it was, but it really wasn't at all. Kearse is blocking, and the safety is far away. Butler is the only player, besides Lockette, that had a chance on the ball. He got there first.

The Seahawks figured--and 98% of the time stats show they'd be right--that they get a TD or an incomplete, and then could run it with Lynch.

You can talk about how the Pats had one of the worst goalline run defenses. That's fine. But you also have to acknowledge Lynch had been 1 for 5 in those situations. And, as unstoppable as he had been, he had gotten stuffed when the Pats knew the rush was coming.

I don't like the decision. A fade to the corner would have been better. But the only reason people are up in arms is that the incredibly-rare worst case scenario happened. Otherwise, it's just an incomplete and they get two goalline runs with Lynch.

As for naming you a worse decision, I'm not going to go through a million, but statistically Mike McCarthy made like 50 two weeks ago.

You don't see interceptions on slants in the middle of the field from the 1 because nobody throws slants into the middle of the field from the 1. Wilson is 5'10, the ball could be tipped at the line, players can converge and intercept it, players converge and collision dislodges ball in the air. It's such a stupid call that there is really no explanation for it, Carroll's explanation is that it was just a wasted play to set up the next play.

 

[tzznandrew]

You don't waste a play when you need a TD to win the game, maybe you waste a play if you need a FG to win.

I thought Carroll's immediate explanation made no sense.

What likely happened: with 1 TO but in great position to score, they thought the Pats would burn their TOs. They didn't. That forced the Seahawks into a position where they needed to throw once. They decided to throw on 2nd down knowing they either got the TD or the clock stopped.

 

[Deepster]

It's amazing that any people are saying it was a decent call, throwing it from 1 yard out into the congested middle of the field is the dumbest possible thing you could do in that situation and it somehow becomes even dumber when you have the best back in the league and the best running qb in the league. You win or lose with your best option and if miraculously the Pats stop you three straight times at the goaline you tip your cap to them for stopping you with your best. Carroll's explanation makes the call seem even more ludicrous, he called that play to waste a play, are you freaking kidding me.

Your comment might be more accurate if this was the last play of the game. It wasn't. It was 2nd and goal from the half yard line with 1 timeout left. The game didn't need to be won or lost on that snap.

 

[tzznandrew]

You don't see interceptions on slants in the middle of the field from the 1 because nobody throws slants into the middle of the field from the 1. Wilson is 5'10, the ball could be tipped at the line, players can converge and intercept it, players converge and collision dislodges ball in the air. It's such a stupid call that there is really no explanation for it, Carroll's explanation is that it was just a wasted play to set up the next play.

You don't get to just say things and have them be true.

There were 60+ throws just this season from the 1, let alone the 2 or inside the 5. It's hard to get a stat for that, especially in this moment. I'd wager that teams absolutely do that play from the 1. I'd wager Seattle has run it this year, and probably scored a TD on it. Which is probably why Butler was able to recognize it.

Sure the ball could have been tipped. But Lynch could have fumbled. A million things can go wrong on any play, and the only reason people care about this play is because an incredibly rare thing happened.

 

[superjohn]

Your comment might be more accurate if this was the last play of the game. It wasn't. It was 2nd and goal from the half yard line with 1 timeout left. The game didn't need to be won or lost on that snap.

Yup and on third down Carroll should have called a throw out of bounds because he doesn't have to score there. It would have really set up that fourth down play, you know the one that matters.

 

[Scoe]

I thought Carroll's immediate explanation made no sense.

What likely happened: with 1 TO but in great position to score, they thought the Pats would burn their TOs. They didn't. That forced the Seahawks into a position where they needed to throw once. They decided to throw on 2nd down knowing they either got the TD or the clock stopped.

Don't play mind games play football and run the ball with Lynch, who was a half yard from getting a TD so they had momentum. Trust your D to finish the job, if your D gives up a gw TD or game tying FG then thats on them.

 

[Uconn77Duke74]

I thought Belichick also did a horrible job allowing the Seattle TD play right before the half. With 6 seconds left every single patriot player should have immediately just tackled their Seattle counterpart, Flag- ball on one yard line with 1 or 2 seconds left. Seattle would have probably just kicked the FG.

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

Kearse is blocking before the ball is thrown. The Patriots were called on that earlier in the half.

He wasn't blocking... Browner jammed him at the line of scrimmage. The play was actually designed so that Kearse would run interference for and set a pick for Lockette. Who knows, the play may have actually worked if Browner hadnt done such a good job jamming him up at the line.

 

[Husky25]

He wasn't blocking... Browner jammed him at the line of scrimmage. The play was actually designed so that Kearse would run interference for and set a pick for Lockette. Who knows, the play may have actually worked if Browner hadnt done such a good job jamming him up at the line.

A pick is also illegal.

 

[HuskyHawk]

This. Sometimes a team loses not because they screwed up, but because a guy on the other team makes an incredible play. It's not like a pick play on the goal-line is an unusual call. It was fine here, especially given the timeout situation. Wilson's pass wasn't terrible either, maybe a tad high but he led his receiver into the end zone like you're supposed to.

It was just a brilliant play by Butler. He made an exceptionally fast read, and the speed and power of his break was even more exceptional. Most guys in his position wouldn't make the immediate, all-out commitment to the break that Butler did - because if Wilson sees him and holds the ball, there's a good chance his man comes off the pick and catches a floater in the corner of the end zone. Then Butler's the goat. So most guys in Butler's spot would have hesitated for an instant, and in that hesitation the game would have been lost.

The guy made an amazing play, especially given what was on the line. It's a shame there's not more focus on that instead of what Seattle did or didn't do.

And as a result, Brady gave him the Chevy Truck he got for MVP. While no big deal for most, Butler is an undrafted rookie...not high on the pay scale.

 

[BugsyCT]

With 1 TO and 24 seconds, they could have run the ball with Lynch or a QB keeper by Wilson. If they get stuffed, call the last TO. They still have 2 downs left to throw a fade route or pass on a rollout (Wilson can scramble and is tough to bring down) - just have to avoid a sack or an INT. If nothing's there, throw it away. On 4th & 1, try one more run or pass it again.

Point it, to throw that ball into a tight window on 2nd & 1 when they had other options makes it a high risk call.

 

[Deepster]

Point it, to throw that ball into a tight window on 2nd & 1 when they had other options makes it a high risk call.

Did you see the picture posted above? At the point of decision and release, it really wasn't that tight a window.

 

[Uconn77Duke74]

 

[Adios]

That last Seahawks play is actually not that bad a call. Only problem was Butler read it perfectly and bumped the WR out. Butler was on fire.

Seahawks were getting plenty lucky. Game ended with the Patriots getting the last bit of good luck.

 

[Husky25]

Did you see the picture posted above? At the point of decision and release, it really wasn't that tight a window.

It was a bad play call, which was executed poorly. Wilson led the receiver. He should have thrown it right at Lockette, back shoulder, or a little behind him.

 

[Husky25]

That last Seahawks play is actually not that bad a call. Only problem was Butler read it perfectly and bumped the WR out. Butler was on fire.

Seahawks were getting plenty lucky. Game ended with the Patriots getting the last bit of good luck.

I disagree. It was a horrible call. If they wanted to throw a pass, a fade would have been better.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

You don't see interceptions on slants in the middle of the field from the 1 because nobody throws slants into the middle of the field from the 1.

Uh, what? Are you at the point where you'll literally say anything and pretend it's grounded in some kind of fact even if it has no basis in reality just because you're so angry that the Pats won (another one)?

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Sure the ball could have been tipped. But Lynch could have fumbled. A million things can go wrong on any play, and the only reason people care about this play is because an incredibly rare thing happened.

Yup. It's hindsight bias, that's it.

 

[tzznandrew]

Did you see the picture posted above? At the point of decision and release, it really wasn't that tight a window.

The immediate aftermath was: this is the worst decision ever! Hell, I couldn't believe it watching it either. But after some reflection it should be easy to see the logic, and realize how great Butler's play was.

The problem is some people are unwilling to change their mind when confronted with evidence and would much rather sensationalize things than view them with a level-head.

 

[Husky25]

“I mean, the look on his face right after I made him throw that pick on the goal line was just priceless. He’s so annoying, so I wanted to get his hopes up and then crush him in front of the whole world. Self-righteous little pr**k.” - God.

 

[tzznandrew]

“I mean, the look on his face right after I made him throw that pick on the goal line was just priceless. He’s so annoying, so I wanted to get his hopes up and then crush him in front of the whole world. Self-righteous little pr**k.” - God.

That Onion article was brilliant, especially given Wilson's hysterics and effusive praise of God after the NFC title game.

Not trying to get into a bigger discussion, but I've just never understood why some athletes think that God cares about the result of a football or basketball game...

 

[Adios]

Not trying to get into a bigger discussion, but I've just never understood why some athletes think that God cares about the result of a football or basketball game...

Just worldly success. I never pray for a win.

Four Super Bowl wins and 4 NCs in men's basketball doesn't feel too bad. Heck, I'll include Yale's championship in hockey in 2013. Was talking to a player sitting next to me (who ended up scoring a goal in the national championship game against QU) at a QU ECAC quarterfinals game. Told him his goalie sucks. Rest is history.

 

[Husky25]

That Onion article was brilliant, especially given Wilson's hysterics and effusive praise of God after the NFC title game.

Not trying to get into a bigger discussion, but I've just never understood why some athletes think that God cares about the result of a football or basketball game...

I thought it was funny too, but to be honest, it really is an over done joke. When The Comedy Channel first merged with the HA! Channel in the early 90's to become Comedy Central, they aired a series called Stand Up, Stand Up. As the title may suggest, it was a 1/2 hour filled with snippets of stand up comedians. I don't remember who it was, but I remember the bit like it was yesterday. Basically the punchline was (paraphrased), "Yeah we would have won, until Jesus made me fumble."

 

[tzznandrew]

I thought it was funny too, but to be honest, it really is an over done joke. When The Comedy Channel first merged with the HA! Channel in the early 90's to become Comedy Central, they aired a series called Stand Up, Stand Up. As the title may suggest, it was a 1/2 hour filled with snippets of stand up comedians. I don't remember who it was, but I remember the bit like it was yesterday. Basically the punchline was (paraphrased), "Yeah we would have won, until Jesus made me fumble."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...r-dropping-game-winning-pass-article-1.456341

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

A pick is also illegal.

Yes, in the basketball sense, but in football receivers run routes all the time that put them in the way of the dbs in order to throw off their timing, draw them away from the targeted WR etc. The Patriots do it a ton, did it many many times on Sunday.

 

[Husky25]

Yes, in the basketball sense, but in football receivers run routes all the time that put them in the way of the dbs in order to throw off their timing, draw them away from the targeted WR etc. The Patriots do it a ton, did it many many times on Sunday.

When it happens down the field, it tends to be called a penalty. Officials rely on their flags a little to much nowadays, which is why teams seems to bank on an interference call on long incomplete pass plays (See: Indianapolis Colts)

Anyway it is a moot point as I have since been educated that my original post was factually incorrect. The offensive player can initiate contact within one yard of the LOS. According to the picture, Kearse and Browner were clearly in the green as the ball is being thrown.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

You don't get to just say things and have them be true.

Sure the ball could have been tipped. But Lynch could have fumbled. A million things can go wrong on any play, and the only reason people care about this play is because an incredibly rare thing happened.

Yup. It's hindsight bias, that's it.

Right, because if they called a run and Lynch fumbled, everybody would be screaming, "why didnt they throw a quick slant pass into four guys??!!!""

NOBODY WOULD BE SAYING THAT.

 

[BugsyCT]

Did you see the picture posted above? At the point of decision and release, it really wasn't that tight a window.

Apparently it was since it got Butler jumped in front and picked it off. The single freeze frame doesn't show how quickly he accelerated to the ball. Any pass on the goal line like that is risky no matter what. Not saying a run play would have guaranteed a TD but the odds are better.

 

[tzznandrew]

Apparently it was since it got Butler jumped in front and picked it off. The single freeze frame doesn't show how quickly he accelerated to the ball.

Right, and the only reason he accelerated like this was because he knew and recognized the play...something the Seahawks didn't anticipate.