OT: Pats-Colts

[upstater]

Just can't make that statement without throwing in Aaron, Peyton and Eli can you? Can you show me the article where any of them were caught?

I've never heard of anyone ever being caught. Have you?

I have heard many QBs are royally pissed at the Colts.

 

[4in16]

Another Pats fan with a "wo is me" attitude - they cheated, AGAIN, will one of you admit it and move on to the Super Bowl?

I make one comment about how overblown this has become and you tell me to move on to the Super Bowl, personally I'd love to but how about yourself and the rest of the country who wants to crucify the pats and won't take anything but a conviction as truth. The Super Bowl is gonna be a hell of a matchup and should be fun to watch. I don't know what is the truth but this has gone beyond ridiculous but I'm not gonna make a judgement either way like so many until a verdict is proven either way. If this was a team I hated I'm not gonna automatically assume they're guilty because I hate them, but that's just me.

 

[zyron]

I've never heard of anyone ever being caught. Have you?

I have heard many QBs are royally pissed at the Colts.

Yeah, sure. I bet you the QBs are pissed at Brady because this is going to change the rule that lets teams provide their own balls.

 

[zyron]

If this was a team I hated I'm not gonna automatically assume they're guilty because I hate them, but that's just me.

I hate the Cowboys, Eagles and Redskins. That's it, just tired of Pats cheating.

 

[upstater]

Yeah, sure. I bet you the QBs are pissed at Brady because this is going to change the rule that lets teams provide their own balls.

Show me the tweet--because the other tweets are out there

 

[boba]

Only Patriots balls apparently, the other teams balls seem to stay inflated for some reason.

Obviously you don't read my posts:
If they (Patriots) use different procedures than the Colts that could explain the difference. The Pats method may take the air to the low side of the scale. The Pats may use a compressor that introduced more water vapor into the mix. (Water vapor is not an ideal gas, it condenses far quicker than N, O, or CO2) . The Pats gauge may be faulty. Or a host of other reasons that can easily be explained by physics or procedure.
What you are insinuating is that a uniformed NFL employee (albeit paid by the home team) manipulated balls on the sideline. While this is possible, it falls on the improbable side of the scale. Occam's razor points towards a more simple explanation, while Hanlon's Razor explains your reasoning methodology.

 

[zyron]

Occam's razor points towards a more simple explanation

So this: The Pats method may take the air to the low side of the scale. The Pats may use a compressor that introduced more water vapor into the mix. (Water vapor is not an ideal gas, it condenses far quicker than N, O, or CO2) . The Pats gauge may be faulty. Or a host of other reasons that can easily be explained by physics or procedure.

Is a more simple explanation than the Pats let air out of the balls. OK.

 

[Dogdeacon]

1. If it is so terrible for teams to have an advantage by inflating deflating footballs why on earth are teams/QB's allowed to use their own and separate footballs in the first place? Doesn't just the fact that this is allowed make the entire controversy moot ?
I.e. would MLB EVER allow each pitcher to use his own baseballs?

2. Why is it assumed the deflated footballs are an advantage? Other than the fumbles thing posted here I've seen no assertion in national media of what was gained or accomplished. The outraged reactions seem more news-cycle oriented and I've heard almost no intelligent discussion about what is gained.

3. Why is it assumed the Patriots have been doing this for years or whatever rather than a one-time thing? I understand that the Patriots don't deserve benefit of the doubt, but concluding this has been going on forever and never caught, detected or other is a massive extrapolation especially when almost everyone including Indy players agree that the Patriots beat Indy regardless.

4. Besides the entire controversy being absurd and obscenely over-blown, I am most struck by the contradiction that NFL players are almost certainly +50% on PEDs = cheating. This cheating is harmful to many aspiring players and potentially LETHAL to NFL players. WE all turn our heads because these astonishing athletes are phenomenally entertaining. Yet we are outraged by football PSI*. Really?!

* I don't buy it, but you could certainly make an NFL & Roger Goodell conspiracy case here, out of virtually nothing we now have THE biggest NFL story of the year arguably trumping the Ray Rice & Adrian Peterson controversies in total and certainly for this week.

 

[Rocktheworld]

1. If it is so terrible for teams to have an advantage by inflating deflating footballs why on earth are teams/QB's allowed to use their own and separate footballs in the first place? Doesn't just the fact that this is allowed make the entire controversy moot ?
I.e. would MLB EVER allow each pitcher to use his own baseballs?

It used to be the home team provided all the balls. I imagine it changed so that teams could work their own balls within the rules so maybe at a lower level of the acceptable psi range, or a certain level of wear on the ball and/or laces and not be forced to use balls that have probably been worked in favor of the home team.

Baseball is completely different. Can't compare the two.

2. Why is it assumed the deflated footballs are an advantage?

Because Brady (and other quarterbacks) have explicitly stated that the ball is easier to grip. If you don't see that as an advantage, no matter the degree, the conversation is indeed over.

3. Why is it assumed the Patriots have been doing this for years or whatever rather than a one-time thing? I understand that the Patriots don't deserve benefit of the doubt, but concluding this has been going on forever and never caught, detected or other is a massive extrapolation especially when almost everyone including Indy players agree that the Patriots beat Indy regardless.

Because it's naive to think otherwise. Cheaters in any theater of life rarely get caught their first time. They're cunning like that. The Patriots of all teams are clearly not dumb enough to be caught first try.

And this is not about whether they ultimately won because of deflated balls, and that's where most people stop in this issue. It's whether or not they cheated, how deep did said alleged cheating go, perhaps for how long does it go back, and it's the fact that this would not be the first time this franchise has been caught cheating in the Belichick-Brady era.

4. Besides the entire controversy being absurd and obscenely over-blown, I am most struck by the contradiction that NFL players are almost certainly +50% on PEDs = cheating. This cheating is harmful to many aspiring players and potentially LETHAL to NFL players. WE all turn our heads because these astonishing athletes are phenomenally entertaining. Yet we are outraged by football PSI*. Really?!

Irrelevant redirection

* I don't buy it, but you could certainly make an NFL & Roger Goodell conspiracy case here, out of virtually nothing we now have THE biggest NFL story of the year arguably trumping the Ray Rice & Adrian Peterson controversies in total and certainly for this week.

Context.

 

[prankster]

Baseball is different, because the ball is utilized by both the pitcher (defense) and the batter (offense) on the same play.

I agree with you, I don't understand why this is an issue at all. If the team on offense has a preferred "Squish factor" they probably should be able to use it. At some point, I imagine, the ball becomes too squishy to be thrown effectively.

If team A wants softer balls and Team B wants harder ones....well, they each have their 12 balls that they bring to the game.

And...If this is going to become a THING....then Boba is right....and the NFL has to start requiring that the balls be filled with dry nitrogen, and under controlled conditions.

But, really, this thing has dragged on for 16 pages and it is the biggest nothing burger in the history of sports.

 

[prankster]

And...I invite you all to take this handy quiz....

 

[mauconnfan]

I make one comment about how overblown this has become and you tell me to move on to the Super Bowl, personally I'd love to but how about yourself and the rest of the country who wants to crucify the pats and won't take anything but a conviction as truth. The Super Bowl is gonna be a hell of a matchup and should be fun to watch. I don't know what is the truth but this has gone beyond ridiculous but I'm not gonna make a judgement either way like so many until a verdict is proven either way. If this was a team I hated I'm not gonna automatically assume they're guilty because I hate them, but that's just me.

I'm not assuming I'm just reading. Seems to be pretty factual, what the NFL does with it you never know. But I mean it, move on to the Super Bowl and say "hey we shouldn't have deflated the balls but let's see what happens next Sunday".......it is that simple. You win next Sunday after we know that balls have zero chance of being tampered with, and everything quite up except for how they handle fines, suspensions right? The best team will win and there will be no denying that.

 

[Dogdeacon]

RockTW
Thanks for taking the time to respond to each point, I have to quibble with the decisive nature you can claim baseball is 'different' - so is every QB. A soft football is liked may help Tom Brady but a hard football is liked by and may help Aaron Rodgers. Do the Packers fumble more? Is it just throwing accuracy?
The baseball analogy is interesting because CLEARLY a specialized ball there would be an advantage. Football teams QBs have been allowed to use/supply their own balls because within the scope of what's allowed its no advantage. Just like extrapolating additional cheating, it is not unreasonable to extrapolate that ball customizing is allowed because it doesn't matter too much.

Using your logic it doesn't matter too much should ends the discussion, Yet like others say this goes on for 15 pages and is a weirdly big national story. It definitely is an advantage to have customized footballs and that's why every QB and NFL team does this. All that's in question is what degree or difference is there in either this particular game or if this was done in other games. I think its grey/unknown yet ALL OF THE OUTRAGE ASSUMES A MASSIVE ADVANTAGE WITHOUT STATING WHAT IS IT. I.E. if the fumble thing is real and can't be attributable to something else, I think we are done and Patriots clearly got an advantage even though its not Tom Brady's throwing or catching that benefitted.

Saying one line of thinking is possibly naïve (I refuse to believe one can be naïve about football inflation because it is impossible to be an wily vet on it) doesn't mean you can draw a straight line ESPECIALLY before the NFL has even released any evidence. So far we just have ironic leaks.

The steroid thing is real. I find the entire NFL morally compromised, so it is really ludicrous to get all holier than thou about football PSI when Hall of Fame guys are putting bullets in their chests.

 

[CL82]

Think hard about it? I don't have to.

UConn did cheat. Jim Calhoun was a cheater. He was caught. More than once. And we were penalized by the NCAA.

When I look over his career here? I'll live with that. My non-UConn friends call him a cheater all the time and you know what? I have NEVER said "No, he's not!!!" I acknowledge that UConn/Calhoun have been caught doing things they shouldn't and.....oh, well. I'll still take the titles and all the good he did here.

Get me one Pats fan willing to say the same and look at this deflate controversy the same way.

Help me out here. How exactly did Jim Calhoun cheat Deepster?

 

[CL82]

Didn't see or know about Brunell or any statements he may have made. If he did it probably also seems logical to him that brady would know. Is there someone not connected to the Pats who has first hand knowledge? What we do have is underinflated balls that were only handled by Pats personnel and that is plenty of reason to allege tampering by them.

I'm not sure that is accurate. They were supposed to be handled by the refs, then were handed over to local, but not Patriot, hires to mind until the game.

 

[CL82]

Only Patriots balls apparently, the other teams balls seem to stay inflated for some reason.

Unless they started at a higher pressure...

 

[CL82]

Because Brady (and other quarterbacks) have explicitly stated that the ball is easier to grip. If you don't see that as an advantage, no matter the degree, the conversation is indeed over.

Can the conversation be over even if he agrees with your premise? That would get my vote, at least until we have some facts to go along with all the speculation.

 

[upstater]

So this: The Pats method may take the air to the low side of the scale. The Pats may use a compressor that introduced more water vapor into the mix. (Water vapor is not an ideal gas, it condenses far quicker than N, O, or CO2) . The Pats gauge may be faulty. Or a host of other reasons that can easily be explained by physics or procedure.

Is a more simple explanation than the Pats let air out of the balls. OK.

No one has ever said the Colts balls didn't drop PI. They said that they were within guidelines. Read the NFL's statement

 

[upstater]

3. Why is it assumed the Patriots have been doing this for years or whatever rather than a one-time thing? I understand that the Patriots don't deserve benefit of the doubt, but concluding this has been going on forever and never caught, detected or other is a massive extrapolation especially when almost everyone including Indy players agree that the Patriots beat Indy regardless.

Since it's a lead-pipe certainty that balls lose PSI when going from drastic temp changes inside to outside, I'm going to assume that the Patriots have been playing with a deflated ball for many many years predating Brady's time there.

For instance, last week the Ravens complained about deflated kicking balls.

Well, K-Balls are kept in by the refs and never messed with by the teams. Theya re not scuffed, not broken in, they are fully inflated.

And yet the balls lost PSI during the game.

 

[Devland]

I had to post in this thread because as an engineer there is one thing in this whole controversy that is driving me crazy. Everyone reporting on this keeps referring to the footballs being two pounds too light. The two pounds being referred to are pounds of pressure not weight. A football weighs 14 to 15 ounces. If they took two pounds of weight off the ball, the ball would have a negative weight. Think more about taking two pounds of pressure out of the tires in your car. It is hardly noticeable.

 

[Rocktheworld]

RockTW
Thanks for taking the time to respond to each point, I have to quibble with the decisive nature you can claim baseball is 'different' - so is every QB. A soft football is liked may help Tom Brady but a hard football is liked by and may help Aaron Rodgers. Do the Packers fumble more? Is it just throwing accuracy?

The baseball analogy is interesting because CLEARLY a specialized ball there would be an advantage. Football teams QBs have been allowed to use/supply their own balls because within the scope of what's allowed its no advantage. Just like extrapolating additional cheating, it is not unreasonable to extrapolate that ball customizing is allowed because it doesn't matter too much.

The point is that baseball and football are in their nature different. Every single play in baseball involves a thrown ball, and the kinds of throws they make and the precision with which they throw is completely different than you see with an NFL quarterback. I think it's more closely policed because that could have a monumental effect on the game.

And this isn't about the degree to which the deflated balls may have helped them. It's the cheating itself, the deception, right before the Super Bowl, with a history that many people thought the Pats were starting to put past them.

Using your logic it doesn't matter too much should ends the discussion, Yet like others say this goes on for 15 pages and is a weirdly big national story. It definitely is an advantage to have customized footballs and that's why every QB and NFL team does this. All that's in question is what degree or difference is there in either this particular game or if this was done in other games. I think its grey/unknown yet ALL OF THE OUTRAGE ASSUMES A MASSIVE ADVANTAGE WITHOUT STATING WHAT IS IT. I.E. if the fumble thing is real and can't be attributable to something else, I think we are done and Patriots clearly got an advantage even though its not Tom Brady's throwing or catching that benefitted.

See above.

With regard to the "everyone customizes their ball to some degree," that's why the NFL set an acceptable range of pressure and weight.

The Pats were punished for spygate not simply because they were filming other teams. The NFL knew that every team does it, so they set parameters within which it is legal; I believe they set limits on where and when in the stadium you could film the other team. The Pats were caught filming outside of that restricted area. The Pats were caught moving outside of that restricted range of accepted pressure. In both cases, you see the Patriots, desperate as anything to win, bend the rules to get it done, but sometimes they break.

Saying one line of thinking is possibly naïve (I refuse to believe one can be naïve about football inflation because it is impossible to be an wily vet on it) doesn't mean you can draw a straight line ESPECIALLY before the NFL has even released any evidence. So far we just have ironic leaks.

I'm not trying to draw a straight line. Just saying it would be naive to not see deceivers and know how they typically operate (successfully).

 

[Deepster]

Help me out here. How exactly did Jim Calhoun cheat Deepster?

Nate Miles?

 

[John]

I had to post in this thread because as an engineer there is one thing in this whole controversy that is driving me crazy. Everyone reporting on this keeps referring to the footballs being two pounds too light. The two pounds being referred to are pounds of pressure not weight. A football weighs 14 to 15 ounces. If they took two pounds of weight off the ball, the ball would have a negative weight. Think more about taking two pounds of pressure out of the tires in your car. It is hardly noticeable.

Please don't cloud this conversation with facts.

 

[Fishy]

I had to post in this thread because as an engineer there is one thing in this whole controversy that is driving me crazy. Everyone reporting on this keeps referring to the footballs being two pounds too light. The two pounds being referred to are pounds of pressure not weight. A football weighs 14 to 15 ounces. If they took two pounds of weight off the ball, the ball would have a negative weight. Think more about taking two pounds of pressure out of the tires in your car. It is hardly noticeable.

The entire world knows they're talking about air-pressure.

Except, apparently, the dullard who just posted above me.

 

[upstater]

The Pats were punished for spygate not simply because they were filming other teams. The NFL knew that every team does it, so they set parameters within which it is legal; I believe they set limits on where and when in the stadium you could film the other team. The Pats were caught filming outside of that restricted area. The Pats were caught moving outside of that restricted range of accepted pressure. In both cases, you see the Patriots, desperate as anything to win, bend the rules to get it done, but sometimes they break.

The filming happened in the first game of the year. How desperate were they? It was a blowout. The rule, which made no mention of signals, made mention that the film wasn't to be used on gameday. To this day the NFL has a rule against using electronics for info on gameday (which is why you're not allowed to watch the TV for replay, or why the Browns are in trouble for sending text messages to the sideline (no, really, the NFL is investigating that). That's the rule the Patriots broke. But that rule (it was really a memo, not the actual rule book) was put in place an entire year prior to the violation. In the interim, the NFL was twice informed that illegal tapes (one audio, one video) were used on the Patriots. In the first instance, the NFL's Steve Alic said to them, "That's football." In the second case, the patriots brass were told by the NFL's Ray Anderson, "The Jets were given permission to film." Now, quite apart from the fact that the Patriots denied ever giving the Jets permission to film from the sidelines, did Ray Anderson really say that the patriots gave the Jets permission to violate an NFL rule?

Tom Curran just today recounts the history of this a little bit: http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/curran-do-we-have-john-harbaugh-thank