OT: Participation trophies for all!!!

[vtcwbuff]

North Carolina school board nixes recognizing academic achievement. LINK

“We have heard from many, many schools that the competition has become very unhealthy,” school board Chairman Tom Benton told the paper.

I call BS. Competition drives achievement and success.

 

[Orangutan]

My high school (this was 10 years ago) didn't do valedictorians either. The closest they came was identifying the top 5 as "Super Seniors". The 5 of us were already obsessive students consumed with getting into the best colleges possible. It was probably good for our mental health that we didn't have one more thing to get competitive over.

I also agree with the idea that you don't want students choosing courses with the purpose of gaming their GPA.

 

[CocoHusky]

My high school (this was 10 years ago) didn't do valedictorians either. The closest they came was identifying the top 5 as "Super Seniors". The 5 of us were already obsessive students consumed with getting into the best colleges possible. It was probably good for our mental health that we didn't have one more thing to get competitive over.

I also agree with the idea that you don't want students choosing courses with the purpose of gaming their GPA.

I disagree with the entire notion that failure to distinguish and compete is somehow good for mental health because that is simply not the way things work in the real world. Getting and retaining a good/better job is a life long competitive process and nothing would play havoc with your mentals like not understanding this and thinking you have an option besides competing.

 

[Wally East]

Here's UConn's graduation program. Tell me which students graduated at the top of their classes from each of the schools at UConn. Then tell me driven students don't go to UConn.

 

[Orangutan]

I disagree with the entire notion that failure to distinguish and compete is somehow good for mental health because that is simply not the way things work in the real world. Getting and retaining a good/better job is a life long competitive process and nothing would play havoc with your mentals like not understanding this and thinking you have an option besides competing.

You're missing my point. There is already a mechanism that forces high school students to compete. It's college admissions, which gets more absurdly competitive by the year. Valedictorian is basically a meaningless title but the type-a "gunners" will go after it anyway. Is it worth it to have them literally lose sleep over it?

 

[huskeynut]

Competition is not unhealthy. Its competition that fuels the individual's drive to succeed.

As a former, now retired music educator, I am against this type of thinking. My band kids were a competitive bunch and their competative spirit and drive helped grow the program.

 

[Drumguy]

You're missing my point. There is already a mechanism that forces high school students to compete. It's college admissions, which gets more absurdly competitive by the year. Valedictorian is basically a meaningless title but the type-a "gunners" will go after it anyway. Is it worth it to have them literally lose sleep over it?

Coming in a little late to the discussion here but I am with you on this valedictorian thing. Just a personal beef as it sounds more accomplished in most cases than it is. My youngest is a great example. She went to Staples HS in Westport and graduated with a 4.3 gpa and 2350 on her SATs and was not Valedictorian, I think she was 10th in her class. Yet the friends she made at Cornell who went to Podunk HS, took few AP courses, and in nowhere near as competitive an environment, were valedictorians of their schools. It means nothing other than against the small subset of students at any given school. The top 50 students at Staples would have been #1 in almost any other school they went to.

As to competition, I am heartily in favor of competition, both academically and athletically. Whenever we dumb down anything it devalues the entire. I just hate the Valedictorian thing.

 

[CocoHusky]

You're missing my point. There is already a mechanism that forces high school students to compete. It's college admissions, which gets more absurdly competitive by the year. Valedictorian is basically a meaningless title but the type-a "gunners" will go after it anyway. Is it worth it to have them literally lose sleep over it?

Not missing your point at all just disagreeing with you. The selection of the valedictorian is a competitive process. I believe what you are saying is there are plenty of other things to compete over so let's eliminate this competition called valedictorian and again I disagree. Some good things in life are competitive & are actually worth losing sleep over, like being named valedictorian in HS and later in like getting that job or promotion you really wanted-IMO.

 

[CocoHusky]

Here's UConn's graduation program. Tell me which students graduated at the top of their classes from each of the schools at UConn. Then tell me driven students don't go to UConn.

Who said driven students don't go to UCONN? UCONN is a good school, driven student go to good schools.

 

[Orangutan]

Not missing your point at all just disagreeing with you. The selection of the valedictorian is a competitive process. I believe what you are saying is there are plenty of other things to compete over so let's eliminate this competition called valedictorian and again I disagree. Some good things in life are competitive & are actually worth losing sleep over, like being named valedictorian in HS and later in like getting that job or promotion you really wanted-IMO.

Valedictorian is pointless outside the bubble of high school. Especially because it often doesn't go to the best student but the one best at gaming the system.

 

[CocoHusky]

Valedictorian is pointless outside the bubble of high school. Especially because it often doesn't go to the best student but the one best at gaming the system.

Sounds like the problem is with the system, which can be fixed without eliminating the competition. How does that saying go? Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Or is it don't cut off you nose to spite your face. Something along those lines.
At this rate maybe we should eliminate the homecoming king and queen also because that can't been good for anyone's ego, right? How about team captains, why should 1 guy or girl on a team be allowed to stand out? League champions? MVP? MOP?
National Merit Scholars?

 

[Wally East]

Who said driven students don't go to UCONN? UCONN is a good school, driven student go to good schools.

But there's no valedictorian in any of the schools. Are they not driven when they are at UConn? If they are driven, then it must be something else.

 

[lne001]

Competition is not unhealthy. Its competition that fuels the individual's drive to succeed.

As a former, now retired music educator, I am against this type of thinking. My band kids were a competitive bunch and their competative spirit and drive helped grow the program.

You must have loved "Whiplash".

 

[Kibitzer]

This discussion reminds me of something Vince Lombardi said about athletic competition:

"If winning is not important, why keep score?"

 

[CocoHusky]

This discussion reminds me of something Vince Lombardi said about athletic competition:

"If winning is not important, why keep score?"

 

[HuskyNan]

You're missing my point. There is already a mechanism that forces high school students to compete. It's college admissions, which gets more absurdly competitive by the year. Valedictorian is basically a meaningless title but the type-a "gunners" will go after it anyway. Is it worth it to have them literally lose sleep over it?

I've got to disagree. Having recently been through the college admission process, twice - many colleges are doing away with emphasis on GPA and are eliminating the SAT/ACT requirements. Instead, the schools want the applicants to write an additional essay explaining their community service or interaction with the community (volunteerism, activities, church groups, etc). We were told the schools don't want just good students, they want well-rounded individuals.

My oldest son applied to MIT, with his 4.3 GPA and whatever ridiculous SAT scores he had. When he went to the school for a tour, the Admissions officer said "We already know you're smart. Now tell us how you're going to enrich the community at MIT". MIT doesn't have class standings. The school wants students to work cooperatively to solve problems, even assigning them to study groups so that students can help each other rather than just sit in a lecture hall, study alone in their room, take a test, and move on. MIT wants student to learn the material, not just memorize it long enough to pass a test. My boy ended up at Worcester Polytech, which has a very similar system to MIT. The philosophy is that the school doesn't want kids in their rooms cramming for tests all day; it wants them out in the college community, being hands on, engaging in extracurriculars, learning to work in teams, challenging them to think rather than recite by rote.

Forcing kids to concentrate on their GPA rather than the subject at hand is counter-productive. In a highly competitive environment where GPA becomes priority #1, the kids become stressed and poorly educated. As a mom of 2 college kids, I like the current system better.

Incidentally, colleges give honor cords, same as most high schools, that recognize excellence in certain subjects, with each cord a different color and representing a different subject. My oldest had 11 honor cords plus the Presidential medal of academic achievement hanging around his neck when he graduated from high school and I expect he'll have the same when he graduates from college next year (all A's except for one B after three years). Excellence is recognized.

Competition in sports is different. It's very discouraging to kids that go all out to excel in a sport to get the same recognition as someone who showed up just 'cause their parents made them go. Different topic altogether.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

I've got to disagree. Having recently been through the college admission process, twice - many colleges are doing away with emphasis on GPA and are eliminating the SAT/ACT requirements. Instead, the schools want the applicants to write an additional essay explaining their community service or interaction with the community (volunteerism, activities, church groups, etc). We were told the schools don't want just good students, they want well-rounded individuals.

My oldest son applied to MIT, with his 4.3 GPA and whatever ridiculous SAT scores he had. When he went to the school for a tour, the Admissions officer said "We already know you're smart. Now tell us how you're going to enrich the community at MIT". MIT doesn't have class standings. The school wants students to work cooperatively to solve problems, even assigning them to study groups so that students can help each other rather than just sit in a lecture hall, study alone in their room, take a test, and move on. MIT wants student to learn the material, not just memorize it long enough to pass a test. My boy ended up at Worcester Polytech, which has a very similar system to MIT. The philosophy is that the school doesn't want kids in their rooms cramming for tests all day; it wants them out in the college community, being hands on, engaging in extracurriculars, learning to work in teams, challenging them to think rather than recite by rote.

Forcing kids to concentrate on their GPA rather than the subject at hand is counter-productive. In a highly competitive environment where GPA becomes priority #1, the kids become stressed and poorly educated. As a mom of 2 college kids, I like the current system better.

Incidentally, colleges give honor cords, same as most high schools, that recognize excellence in certain subjects, with each cord a different color and representing a different subject. My oldest had 11 honor cords plus the Presidential medal of academic achievement hanging around his neck when he graduated from high school and I expect he'll have the same when he graduates from college next year (all A's except for one B after three years). Excellence is recognized.

Competition in sports is different. It's very discouraging to kids that go all out to excel in a sport to get the same recognition as someone who showed up just 'cause their parents made them go. Different topic altogether.

That's all well and good if you come from a family that has resources. Some kids need to work if they want money in their pocket, car, gas, insurance, phone...Service and/or extra curricular activities times are limited.

 

[HuskyNan]

That's all well and good if you come from a family that has resources. Some kids need to work if they want money in their pocket, car, gas, insurance, phone...Service and/or extra curricular activities times are limited.

I'm not following you. Are you saying some high school kids need to go out and work to pay the phone bill?

 

[mr006]

My high school (this was 10 years ago) didn't do valedictorians either. The closest they came was identifying the top 5 as "Super Seniors". The 5 of us were already obsessive students consumed with getting into the best colleges possible. It was probably good for our mental health that we didn't have one more thing to get competitive over.

OK, well how about numbers 6-10 that DIDN'T make the top 5?

 

[bags27]

Really depends on what you see education for. If you see it as credentializing, then competition is inevitable, to distinguish who has the best credentials. If you see it as trying to create life long curious learners, then it probably scars and scares away a good many kids. Both goals are valid, and obviously sometimes a balance is achieved, and sometimes not.

 

[Orangutan]

Forcing kids to concentrate on their GPA rather than the subject at hand is counter-productive. In a highly competitive environment where GPA becomes priority #1, the kids become stressed and poorly educated. As a mom of 2 college kids, I like the current system better.

Incidentally, colleges give honor cords, same as most high schools, that recognize excellence in certain subjects, with each cord a different color and representing a different subject. My oldest had 11 honor cords plus the Presidential medal of academic achievement hanging around his neck when he graduated from high school and I expect he'll have the same when he graduates from college next year (all A's except for one B after three years). Excellence is recognized.

I must be expressing myself poorly because I believe we are on the same page.

I believe the argument is that by getting rid of valedictorians we are removing an incentive for students to achieve thus doing them a disservice when they reach the "real world." My point is that college admissions process creates an incentive for students to achieve. The fact that top colleges are de-emphasizing GPA speaks directly to my point. Recognizing the student with the best GPA is counter-productive because having the best GPA alone is not going to get them into the best college. If the valedictorian isn't doing extracurriculars because they are focused on having that perfect 4.0, they are actively hurting their future.

The second paragraph I quoted is something I was also about to mention. Back to the example of my high school - we had a ceremony at the end of each year honoring the honor roll students. They also identified a "student of the year" in each grade in various subject matters (English, math, science, social studies, etc.). These were chosen by the faculty so that the kids with the greatest passion for an understanding of those subjects were chosen not merely the ones with the best grades. Excellence was recognized.

 

[Icebear]

The most ridiculously gifted and talented kid I ever had a church was turned down by Dartmouth, Yale, Harvard and Georgetown and then attended Bucknell. He had 1400+ SATs, was co-Validictorian, played five musical instruments including piano, horn, and guitar. He was an Eagle Scout and past secretary and president of our synod wide youth organization, and worked summers at our church camp, and went to both the BSA Jamboree in Philmont and attended our national youth gathering. I have never known a more complete dossier than his. Example of his tenacity and will and his heart is when deciding to learn to play the guitar he chose Eric Clapton's "Signe" as his first song playing it flawlessly for me because he knew it was my grandmother's name.

He majored in Chinese and business at Bucknell and spent a year abroad in China working in English as a second language schools there. Upon graduating he went back to China helping to open additional schools there for the company worked for traveling throughout China and south to the Pekong Delta in the south. He was wait listed at the London School of Economics and later accepted but already committed to the UC-San Diego where completing and publishing his Masters thesis he was then invited to speak at Harvard, the irony. He returned to China again and in the last year has accepted a position at the Stinson Center in Washington, D.C. as the associate director for Southeast Asia.

He stick remains an amazing person with tremendous gifts with a personal dossier any of the schools who turned him down would love to have among their alumni. Work ethic, true gifts and commitment is vastly more important the name on the paper they give you at graduation. That can open doors and opportunities but doesn't compare to the individual will. We see that at UCONN every year.

BTW, I am leaving the congregation I have served for 27+ years on July 31st to become the spiritual counselor for a UPMC hospice care team throughout Central PA including the Penn State area. The adventure continues.

 

[Biff]

Ran across this "related" video. Kinda' broad stereotyping but funny if you don't take it too seriously.

 

[CocoHusky]

I must be expressing myself poorly because I believe we are on the same page.
The second paragraph I quoted is something I was also about to mention. Back to the example of my high school - we had a ceremony at the end of each year honoring the honor roll students. They also identified a "student of the year" in each grade in various subject matters (English, math, science, social studies, etc.). These were chosen by the faculty so that the kids with the greatest passion for an understanding of those subjects were chosen not merely the ones with the best grades. Excellence was recognized.

Not poor expression at all it was simply a failure to mention that the valedictorian completion was replaced by "student of the year" awards in various subjects- GOODNESS IMO. That would have put us squarely on the same page as we are now.

 

[Icebear]

I apologize for typos and autocorrect word shifts I didn't catch above.

For those curious it is the Stimson Center in D.C. Here is a bit about what it is The Stimson Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Henry Stimson was Secretary of State under Hoover and Secretary of War under Taft, FDR, and Truman.