OT: "Ode to NY" by #2

[Waquoit]

Why are you even here?

I'm moving the discussion forward like I usually do. Why are you saying the same thing in three (at least) different threads that you started? Is it because your unrequited love knows no bounds?

 

[intlzncster]

I'd be remiss without posting Jerry Thornton's take on this, as it's a good addendum to the Olbermann video. Whatever you think of Olbermann, he does nail it sometimes (eg his Ray Rice/NFL rant). Plus Thornton threw in a strong usage of the word "hagiography"; I was happy about that. LINK here.

I’m not the world’s biggest Keith Olbermann fan, I’ll admit. But when a guy hits a nail on the head, he hits a nail on the head. And when he does it by dropping a punchbowl turd right in the middle of the most over-the-top, fawning, national ball licking, hagiography in the history of sports, all you can do is tip your cap to him. My enemy’s enemy is my friend, and all that.

And make no mistake, Olbermann did hit the nail on the head. All things considered, Derek Jeter might be the most overrated athlete of all time. That doesn’t mean he’s sucked by any stretch. But by dictionary definition, “overrate” means “to rate or appraise too highly; overestimate” and that is Jeter to a tee. He’s been a decent, steady little singles hitter and a defensive liability for 20 years, and that is it. But at no point has he ever done anything to justify having SportsCenter get preempted by him taking batting practice six days before his last game, like happened yesterday. He’s the Kim Jong Il of baseball; everything he’s ever done is completely blown out of proportion by the media to the point it’s fiction.

Consider his legendary clutch play. Compare Jeter’s October/November numbers and they’re virtually identical to his April-September numbers:

– Regular Season: .310 BA .377 OBP .440 SLG .817 OPS
– Postseason: .308 BA .378 OBP .465 SLG .838 OPS

Not that there’s anything wrong with playing at the same level in the postseason as you always do. But his Baseball Reference bio calls him “Mr. November” and “Captain Clutch,” not “Mr. Stayed the Same” and “Captain Maintained the Same Level of Production.” By contrast, consider David Ortiz, whose numbers go up in every category and his World Series numbers go off the charts (BA: .285 to .455, SLG: .547 to .795, OPS: .926 to 1.372). And if you want to take a specific example, in the 2004 ALCS, Captain Clutch hit .200 and slugged .233 with one extra base hit (a double) in 38 plate appearances. While every Yankee fan and all the Jeter apologists fired all their bullets at ARod and then threw the empty gun, Jeter was also front and center in the biggest collapse in the history of everything.

And that doesn’t even address his fielding. To point out that he’s a terrible shortstop and his Gold Gloves are the biggest joke awards ever given out is too easy. It’s fishing with dynamite. Barstool legend Soog once sent me a metric I can no longer find. But it measured defensive runs given up over the average player and Jeter was dead last in baseball history. Something like 18.243rd out of 18.243. But absent the link I won’t stand on that. I’ll just state the one point not even the most diehard Jeter jock sniffer… not Pete Manzo or Susan Waldmyn or anyone… could argue: He hasn’t been the best shortstop in his own infield for 10 years. And the fact that Captain Intangibles has never moved to another position is the height of selfishness.

So yeah, make all the dramatic Nike and Gatorade ads you want. Celebrate him for living in New York without getting into trouble like it’s a Chris Rock bit (“I ain’t never been to jail!” “You’re not supposed to! What do you want? A cookie?!?”) Cry all you want at his 27 retirement celebrations and laud him for being the leaderiest leader whose leadership ever lead. But you can’t believe he’s earned all this. @JerryThornton1

By Jerry Thornton posted September 24th, 2014 at 11:54 AM

 

[David 76]

I'm not the biggest fan of guys announcing their retirement before the season ... but I'd much prefer seeing this story beaten to death than the crap that's been going on in the NFL.

Better the story get beat to death than the wife?

 

[zyron]

He’s been a decent, steady little singles hitter and a defensive liability for 20 years, and that is it.

That's all I have to read that this person is a genius. He has no idea what he is talking about. I posted earlier about where Jeter was ranked in a career offensive WAR, now here is some players he is ahead of.


20.Derek Jeter (20, 40)95.3R
21.Jimmie Foxx+ (20)94.3R
22.Eddie Mathews+ (17)93.8L
23.Cap Anson+ (27)90.9R
Mike Schmidt+ (18)90.9R
25.Chipper Jones (19)87.4B
26.George Brett+ (21)84.1L
27.Ken Griffey (22)83.8L
28.Albert Pujols (14, 34)82.6R
29.Pete Rose (24)82.2B
Robin Yount+ (20)82.2R
31.Dan Brouthers+ (19)81.6L
32.Manny Ramirez (19, 42)81.2R
33.Wade Boggs+ (18)80.6L
34.Rod Carew+ (19)80.4L


Now this isn't some persons opinion, these are done by math and if Jeter is what he says, what does it say about the guys he is ahead of. I guess Jimmie Foxx, Eddie Matthews and Mike Schmidt must have been some sh!tty, overrated players too.

 

[Deepster]

A little known fact.

Many people know Ted Williams hit a HR in his last at bat, right? Did you know that was his last game at Fenway? After hitting that HR, he refused to take the trip to NY to close out the season with 3 games at Yankee Stadium. You might think he was a curmudgeon, but I tip my cap to him for going out the way he did. Oh, and he also his .316 with 29 HR's at age 42.

Not Captain Jeets. He'll be at Fenway soaking up all the fake ovations for every bloop he hits in to RF all weekend.

 

[intlzncster]

That's all I have to read that this person is a genius. He has no idea what he is talking about. I posted earlier about where Jeter was ranked in a career offensive WAR, now here is some players he is ahead of.

Now this isn't some persons opinion, these are done by math.

Ummh, since we are throwing 'genius' around, you might want to quote the person who actually wrote the statement instead of ascribing someone else's quote to myself (even though it was in my post), whether inadvertently or not.

 

[intlzncster]

Not Captain Jeets. He'll be at Fenway soaking up all the fake ovations for every bloop he hits in to RF ground out to short all weekend.

ftfy

 

[zyron]

Ummh, since we are throwing 'genius' around, you might want to quote the person who actually wrote the statement instead of ascribing someone else's quote to myself (even though it was in my post), whether inadvertently or not.

I wasn't calling you one, the idiot who wrote the article.

 

[zyron]

A little known fact.

Many people know Ted Williams hit a HR in his last at bat, right? Did you know that was his last game at Fenway? After hitting that HR, he refused to take the trip to NY to close out the season with 3 games at Yankee Stadium. You might think he was a curmudgeon, but I tip my cap to him for going out the way he did. Oh, and he also his .316 with 29 HR's at age 42.

Not Captain Jeets. He'll be at Fenway soaking up all the fake ovations for every bloop he hits in to RF all weekend.

I think it is pretty well known that Ted Williams was a huge a#@^ole. If Jeter didn't play at Fenway, people would be killing him for that, and I don't know why he would be expected to not play, just a bizzare comment.

And if I was a Mets fan, I would be more concerned about $20 million a year David Wright being done at 31, not how 40 year old Jeter is playing in his last 5 games.

 

[David 76]

I've seen defensive liabilities. Jeter's defensive liability is the most overrated thing about him. I'm too old for all the new metrics in baseball but I think some of then are BS. I watched Jeter most games and saw a lot of great plays.
You want to talk about the defense of Ted Williams? The defense of Ortiz? Manny? Those are atrocious fielders (not Ted he really wasn't that bad either).
You want to talk the comparative worth of Nomar? A guy who was truly great and the team was better without him. Cal playing when he should have sat so he could break Lou's record?
Please, just shut up. The season will end soon. I promise I won't complain when Pedroia takes a victory lap. However, if things remain true to form, it won't be in a Red Sox uniform
I find 99% of the country, including most Sox fans, respect Jeter. Olberman (who was too extreme to keep his job on MSNBC!) can kiss my butt. George Brett and Cal Ripkin among others also deservedly got the same treatment and they were not the greatest baseball player ever either.

 

[Deepster]

I think it is pretty well known that Ted Williams was a huge a#@^ole. If Jeter didn't play at Fenway, people would be killing him for that, and I don't know why he would be expected to not play, just a bizzare comment.

And if I was a Mets fan, I would be more concerned about $20 million a year David Wright being done at 31, not how 40 year old Jeter is playing in his last 5 games.

I completely disagree. If he said he wanted his last at bat to be in Yankee Stadium, all you fanboys would be drenched to the knees and I don't think anyone would feel it was inappropriate. Of course, that'd mean he couldn't soak up another fake tribute from one more team this season.

 

[intlzncster]

I've seen defensive liabilities. Jeter's defensive liability is the most overrated thing about him. I'm too old for all the new metrics in baseball but I think some of then are BS. I watched Jeter most games and saw a lot of great plays.
You want to talk about the defense of Ted Williams? The defense of Ortiz? Manny? Those are atrocious fielders (not Ted he really wasn't that bad either).
You want to talk the comparative worth of Nomar? A guy who was truly great and the team was better without him. Cal playing when he should have sat so he could break Lou's record?

The reason those aren't big deals is that no one gifted them 100 gold gloves. I don't think there was a single year of his career where Jeter was the best SS in the AL. He was above average for a portion of his career, but never great.

 

[mauconnfan]

I completely disagree. If he said he wanted his last at bat to be in Yankee Stadium, all you fanboys would be drenched to the knees and I don't think anyone would feel it was inappropriate. Of course, that'd mean he couldn't soak up another fake tribute from one more team this season.

Mets suck.......much like your opinion of Jeter. But hey Deep I get it - thank God for Husky basketball. Jets and Mets? I'd be an ornery fk too with no sense of anything outside of my world!!

 

[mauconnfan]

I'm moving the discussion forward like I usually do. Why are you saying the same thing in three (at least) different threads that you started? Is it because your unrequited love knows no bounds?

Guess my love and your hate are unrequited huh Waq!! .......lol.......

Can't like everyone I guess and who can blame you.........

 

[mauconnfan]

I'd be remiss without posting Jerry Thornton's take on this, as it's a good addendum to the Olbermann video. Whatever you think of Olbermann, he does nail it sometimes (eg his Ray Rice/NFL rant). Plus Thornton threw in a strong usage of the word "hagiography"; I was happy about that. LINK here.

I’m not the world’s biggest Keith Olbermann fan, I’ll admit. But when a guy hits a nail on the head, he hits a nail on the head. And when he does it by dropping a punchbowl turd right in the middle of the most over-the-top, fawning, national ball licking, hagiography in the history of sports, all you can do is tip your cap to him. My enemy’s enemy is my friend, and all that.

And make no mistake, Olbermann did hit the nail on the head. All things considered, Derek Jeter might be the most overrated athlete of all time. That doesn’t mean he’s sucked by any stretch. But by dictionary definition, “overrate” means “to rate or appraise too highly; overestimate” and that is Jeter to a tee. He’s been a decent, steady little singles hitter and a defensive liability for 20 years, and that is it. But at no point has he ever done anything to justify having SportsCenter get preempted by him taking batting practice six days before his last game, like happened yesterday. He’s the Kim Jong Il of baseball; everything he’s ever done is completely blown out of proportion by the media to the point it’s fiction.

Consider his legendary clutch play. Compare Jeter’s October/November numbers and they’re virtually identical to his April-September numbers:

– Regular Season: .310 BA .377 OBP .440 SLG .817 OPS
– Postseason: .308 BA .378 OBP .465 SLG .838 OPS

Not that there’s anything wrong with playing at the same level in the postseason as you always do. But his Baseball Reference bio calls him “Mr. November” and “Captain Clutch,” not “Mr. Stayed the Same” and “Captain Maintained the Same Level of Production.” By contrast, consider David Ortiz, whose numbers go up in every category and his World Series numbers go off the charts (BA: .285 to .455, SLG: .547 to .795, OPS: .926 to 1.372). And if you want to take a specific example, in the 2004 ALCS, Captain Clutch hit .200 and slugged .233 with one extra base hit (a double) in 38 plate appearances. While every Yankee fan and all the Jeter apologists fired all their bullets at ARod and then threw the empty gun, Jeter was also front and center in the biggest collapse in the history of everything.

And that doesn’t even address his fielding. To point out that he’s a terrible shortstop and his Gold Gloves are the biggest joke awards ever given out is too easy. It’s fishing with dynamite. Barstool legend Soog once sent me a metric I can no longer find. But it measured defensive runs given up over the average player and Jeter was dead last in baseball history. Something like 18.243rd out of 18.243. But absent the link I won’t stand on that. I’ll just state the one point not even the most diehard Jeter jock sniffer… not Pete Manzo or Susan Waldmyn or anyone… could argue: He hasn’t been the best shortstop in his own infield for 10 years. And the fact that Captain Intangibles has never moved to another position is the height of selfishness.

So yeah, make all the dramatic Nike and Gatorade ads you want. Celebrate him for living in New York without getting into trouble like it’s a Chris Rock bit (“I ain’t never been to jail!” “You’re not supposed to! What do you want? A cookie?!?”) Cry all you want at his 27 retirement celebrations and laud him for being the leaderiest leader whose leadership ever lead. But you can’t believe he’s earned all this. @JerryThornton1

By Jerry Thornton posted September 24th, 2014 at 11:54 AM

Please with the Ortiz crap. He 's a cheater and he can't find his glove - NO comparison!

 

[intlzncster]

Please with the Ortiz crap. He 's a cheater and he can't find his glove - NO comparison!

Come on, really? Coming from a Yankees fan, that is rich. The only franchise more 'Juiced' than the NYY was the 1970s Steelers. Even an altar boy like Pettite used PEDs.

I don't care too much mind you, as I think most players used PEDs in some form or fashion during that era.

 

[mauconnfan]

Come on, really? Coming from a Yankees fan, that is rich. The only franchise more 'Juiced' than the NYY was the 1970s Steelers. Even an altar boy like Pettite used PEDs.

I don't care too much mind you, as I think most players used PEDs in some form or fashion during that era.

The Yankees had many cheaters (not sure I said otherwise) we know of or believe and so did the Sox. How many titles do the Sox win without Papi and Manny my friend amongst others? Funny stuff... From what I know Jeter wasn't on the list and i know Papi WAS..........take it from there!! And again, he doesn't use a glove so please let's not even go there that's a joke.

 

[Deepster]

The Yankees had many cheaters (not sure I said otherwise) we know of or believe and so did the Sox. How many titles do the Sox win without Papi and Manny my friend amongst others? Funny stuff... From what I know Jeter wasn't on the list and i know Papi WAS.....take it from there!! And again, he doesn't use a glove so please let's not even go there that's a joke.

Actually, I'd bet that Ortiz would have better range at SS if he did play the field.

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2014/4/8/5594256/derek-jeter-yankees-gold-gloves

 

[Onions]

I like the way Ted Williams handled it. Played his last game in front of the home fans, a homer in his last at bat, then called it a career. He didn't feel the need to go to New York for some parting gifts.

The tribute tour is totally overdone and obnoxious. Jeter is not only not the greatest player ever, he's not in the top 5 of Yankee greats, he was arguably never the best player on his team, never mind the leauge. He was never the best defensive shortstop in the AL, and for a few years was not the best defensive shortstop on his team. So where does that leave us - with #20 career offensive WAR, #6 all time in hits, #9 all time runs scored. Other than Honus Wagner and possibly Cal, Yount or A-Rod, he was the best shortstop over his career that ever played. Not the best peak performer - Wagner, A-Rod and Ernie Banks go there - but over a full career who would you rather have playing one of the key positions on your team - Yount, Nomar, Vizquel, Aparicio, Ozzie, Larkin? Complaining about Jeter's lack of RBI's is like complaining about Sandy Koufax's pick off move - not really in his job description. So what you have is someone who is in the top twenty in many all-time batting categories, who was remarkably durable, played for the same team for 20 years, won 5 titles, played well in championship competition, is one of the top 5 players of all time at a key position and was a pleasure to watch play. Yep, a real stinker. My 28 year old son should be so lucky to root for another such player in his lifetime.

 

[SWHuskyFan]

The tribute tour is totally overdone and obnoxious. Jeter is not only not the greatest player ever, he's not in the top 5 of Yankee greats, he was arguably never the best player on his team, never mind the leauge. He was never the best defensive shortstop in the AL, and for a few years was not the best defensive shortstop on his team. So where does that leave us - with #20 career offensive WAR, #6 all time in hits, #9 all time runs scored. Other than Honus Wagner and possibly Cal, Yount or A-Rod, he was the best shortstop over his career that ever played. Not the best peak performer - Wagner, A-Rod and Ernie Banks go there - but over a full career who would you rather have playing one of the key positions on your team - Yount, Nomar, Vizquel, Aparicio, Ozzie, Larkin? Complaining about Jeter's lack of RBI's is like complaining about Sandy Koufax's pick off move - not really in his job description. So what you have is someone who is in the top twenty in many all-time batting categories, who was remarkably durable, played for the same team for 20 years, won 5 titles, played well in championship competition, is one of the top 5 players of all time at a key position and was a pleasure to watch play. Yep, a real stinker. My 28 year old son should be so lucky to root for another such player in his lifetime.

I'm a Sox fan and I agree with pretty much all of this.

 

[CL82]

You're projecting. Don't try so hard.

"Projecting", trying too "hard." Interesting word choices.

 

[mauconnfan]

I'm a Sox fan and I agree with pretty much all of this.

Shocker! LOL

 

[mauconnfan]

The tribute tour is totally overdone and obnoxious. Jeter is not only not the greatest player ever, he's not in the top 5 of Yankee greats, he was arguably never the best player on his team, never mind the leauge. He was never the best defensive shortstop in the AL, and for a few years was not the best defensive shortstop on his team. So where does that leave us - with #20 career offensive WAR, #6 all time in hits, #9 all time runs scored. Other than Honus Wagner and possibly Cal, Yount or A-Rod, he was the best shortstop over his career that ever played. Not the best peak performer - Wagner, A-Rod and Ernie Banks go there - but over a full career who would you rather have playing one of the key positions on your team - Yount, Nomar, Vizquel, Aparicio, Ozzie, Larkin? Complaining about Jeter's lack of RBI's is like complaining about Sandy Koufax's pick off move - not really in his job description. So what you have is someone who is in the top twenty in many all-time batting categories, who was remarkably durable, played for the same team for 20 years, won 5 titles, played well in championship competition, is one of the top 5 players of all time at a key position and was a pleasure to watch play. Yep, a real stinker. My 28 year old son should be so lucky to root for another such player in his lifetime.

Well stated and fair - I do laugh at those newbies who dare to categorize him in the top 5 Yankees.......Top 10 is even tough but more than likely reality. A really good player for a really long time on the same team. It makes a difference. I compare it to us Husky fans a little when we ask who our favorite Huskies are. Unlike UK we are fortunate to have most of our start performers stay so we do get to know the player, the person and their achievements. Like it or not fans connect with players who stay and in this day and age 20 years is unheard of.

Good post

 

[mauconnfan]

Actually, I'd bet that Ortiz would have better range at SS if he did play the field.

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2014/4/8/5594256/derek-jeter-yankees-gold-gloves

How's the Mets SS dong for the last 20 years? Just curious?

 

[Deepster]

So what you have is someone who is in the top twenty in many all-time batting categories, who was remarkably durable, played for the same team for 20 years, won 5 titles, played well in championship competition, is one of the top 5 players of all time at a key position and was a pleasure to watch play.

Sounds to me like he's the Eddie Murray of shortstops. Of course, Murray was top 5 in MVP voting 5 times....but you get my point.

 

[8893]

For the love of God, please let it go Mau.

I'm a Mets fan and I hate the Yankees, but I like and respect the guy and don't begrudge him getting a send off in whichever way he and MLB choose to do it. But your staunch defense of everything to do with the guy and your aggressive attacks on anyone who doesn't share your man-crush/idol worship is making me want to dislike him and the whole ordeal. Enough already. We get it.

 

[Deepster]

How's the Mets SS dong for the last 20 years? Just curious?

I'm not sure how liking the Mets makes observations about other players inaccurate. Unless you don't have any other argument to make.

 

[David 76]

Onion's post is a fair one. I wonder how many teams have ever had a player that would crack the Yankee top 5? Sox have 2.

 

[mauconnfan]

I'm not sure how liking the Mets makes observations about other players inaccurate. Unless you don't have any other argument to make.

How can I make an argument with someone who hates a guy that much and obviously knows little about the game to discuss such matters? I don't blame you as being a Mets fan would make it hard to understand the game, but I thought you played. To totally disregard Jeter's achievements is, well, ignorant as fn hell! You can't argue with that.

Oh by the way he wasn't a GG SS as much or even close to what he was given, but above average easily. At least for those who watch the game and understand it a little it was obvious he was at least solid at his spot. To not be as good as Visquel, ARod, Ozzie and a few others doesn't make you bad by the way.

Have at it kid

 

[mauconnfan]

For the love of God, please let it go Mau.

I'm a Mets fan and I hate the Yankees, but I like and respect the guy and don't begrudge him getting a send off in whichever way he and MLB choose to do it. But your staunch defense of everything to do with the guy and your aggressive attacks on anyone who doesn't share your man-crush/idol worship is making me want to dislike him and the whole ordeal. Enough already. We get it.

No staunch defense here 8893 I am real about the player Jeter was. No man crush at all funny how people need to go there for whatever reason? You picturing me "pumping one off too"??

It's actually a little whacky why anyone is so whacked out about a couple of stops at stadiums and some rocking chairs and *? Not sure who's crazier here dude?