OT: "Ode to NY" by #2

[intlzncster]

I hate the freaking Yankees, and Jeter hasn't deserved any of his last 7-8 gold glove awards, but he's a HOF player, has been a class act on and off the field and stayed with the Yanks throughout. You have to appreciate that in this era. We won't see many more like him. I think that's what this is about as much as anything.

Agree. If he was a complete duckck up, and malcontent, we wouldn't be having this conversation, even if he had all the numbers. Obviously an HOFer either way.

 

[intlzncster]

Only a moronic Sox fan would think of it this way.....who's your favorite team Waq? Just curious...or just want everyone to see the real reason you're so outraged with this!

Nah, most of America thinks its a joke at this point. It's been a fantastic marketing ploy though. Other teams, especially small market ones, have found a nice way to sell a few more tickets at the end of the season. And baseball has found a way to stay a little more relevant than usual.

If it was my favorite player or the best player of all time, I'd be over it too. Just too much at this point.

 

[intlzncster]

You're lost. I agree with you about hall of fame for hall of fame - I do he's not Ruth, Gehrig, Williams.... But look at the names you provided us...they are from baseballs past. How many guys play for the same team for 20 years and perform basically that solid in all facets of the game, as well as off the field (banging hot models and celebs aside) for that long anymore? This day and age? And everyone in the league loves the guy - everyone, like it or not. There's a reason this is happening and the best thing for people, who either don't appreciate it or are just petty jealous Sox fans, to do is to turn the station. I'm sure a nice look at the 2004 playoffs on NESN will make all you guys climb back into the circle jerk which Waq will he happy to be the pivotman!

But who cares about off the field and what other players think of him? All that amounts to is a wank. Hall of Fame should be on the field production and nothing else. That's exactly my gripe with it; the 'gatekeepers' (sportswriters) impose their morality and who they like/dislike on the voting process. It's stupid. They'll probably keep Bonds out (for a while at least), even though he was a better player than Jeter, disregarding his late steroid period numbers.

Again, definitely not just Sox fans. No one likes to be clubbed on the head over and over and over and over with the same stuff. Jeter appears to be a good guy, but he's now on a Manziel/Tebow level.

The part you mentioned about the models was his best quality mind you.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

But who cares about off the field and what other players think of him? All that amounts to is a wank. Hall of Fame should be on the field production and nothing else. That's exactly my gripe with it; the 'gatekeepers' (sportswriters) impose their morality and who they like/dislike on the voting process. It's stupid. They'll probably keep Bonds out (for a while at least), even though he was a better player than Jeter, disregarding his late steroid period numbers.

Again, definitely not just Sox fans. No one likes to be clubbed on the head over and over and over and over with the same stuff. Jeter appears to be a good guy, but he's now on a Manziel/Tebow level.

The part you mentioned about the models was his best quality mind you.

The most enjoyable part of the whole thing is watching adults like Mau become shrieking teenage girls when you even suggest that the whole "retirement tour" is a bit overblown.

Jeter's had a hell of a career, it's a nice thing to be a one-team guy, and he'll go down in history as a Yankee legend.

He's been hugely overrated in terms of on-field production for quite some time, his Golden Gloves have been basically a farce - let's give Andre Drummond the prize for best free throw shooter in the NBA while we're at it - and the whole "all about the team" nonsense took a bit of a hit when he refused to move to third when a far, far better shortstop came to town.

As far as how "classy" he is, he's always struck me as a complete cipher, but I don't know him any better than his fanboys do. I suspect that a certain part of his "class" is just a product of saying nothing interesting, ever.

 

[CL82]

Anyone else a little weirded out that BigE is "imagining Mau pump one off?"

The most enjoyable part of the whole thing is watching adults like Mau ...

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

You're projecting. Don't try so hard.

 

[zyron]

He's been hugely overrated in terms of on-field production for quite some time, his Golden Gloves have been basically a farce - let's give Andre Drummond the prize for best free throw shooter in the NBA while we're at it - and the whole "all about the team" nonsense took a bit of a hit when he refused to move to third when a far, far better shortstop came to town.

Agree his defense is overrated. But in the history of baseball, where do you think he ranks in Offensive WAR. It is a lot higher than most people would think. He is #20 all time.

1.Babe Ruth+ (22)155.1L
2.Ty Cobb+ (24)150.9L
3.Barry Bonds (22)142.6L
4.Willie Mays+ (22)136.4R
5.Hank Aaron+ (23)131.8R
6.Ted Williams+ (19)126.3L
7.Stan Musial+ (22)124.6L
8.Tris Speaker+ (22)123.6L
9.Honus Wagner+ (21)123.0R
10.Rogers Hornsby+ (23)121.6R
11.Eddie Collins+ (25)119.6L
12.Mickey Mantle+ (18)116.0B
13.Alex Rodriguez (20, 38)113.0R
14.Lou Gehrig+ (17)112.1L
15.Frank Robinson+ (21)106.6R
16.Rickey Henderson+ (25)104.2R
17.Joe Morgan+ (22)103.7L
18.Mel Ott+ (22)103.5L
19.Nap Lajoie+ (21)97.8R
20.Derek Jeter (20, 40)95.3R

 

[champs99and04]

I have a lot of respect for Jeter, but as a casual Yankees fan...it's sort of interesting to contrast the unadulterated adoration for Jeter with the complete indifference towards Robinson Cano leaving for Seattle. Jeter was a great player and a Hall of Famer to be sure, but his last great year was 2009, and he's been a borderline replacement level player for two years. Meanwhile, a great, homegrown Yankee in the midst of his prime leaves for Seattle, and it doesn't even seem like an event. And before you mention the money, don't kid yourself - there's no way they ever would have let Jeter or Rivera play anywhere else. They have a f'in 2 billion dollar TV deal, it's just that there is some weird reverence for Jeter that doesn't exist for other guys.

The whole thing is off-putting to me. Last I checked, Jeter's OPS hovers around .600, and there isn't a whisper about moving him down in the lineup. Then there's Cano in Seattle having an MVP type season that could have been the difference between making the playoffs and not. None of this is necessarily Jeter's fault, but watching the organization prioritize his send-off over winning seems to contradict everything he's being celebrated for.

 

[mauconnfan]

Nah, most of America thinks its a joke at this point. It's been a fantastic marketing ploy though. Other teams, especially small market ones, have found a nice way to sell a few more tickets at the end of the season. And baseball has found a way to stay a little more relevant than usual.

If it was my favorite player or the best player of all time, I'd be over it too. Just too much at this point.

Wrong about that....very few!

 

[mauconnfan]

I hate the freaking Yankees, and Jeter hasn't deserved any of his last 7-8 gold glove awards, but he's a HOF player, has been a class act on and off the field and stayed with the Yanks throughout. You have to appreciate that in this era. We won't see many more like him. I think that's what this is about as much as anything.

Agree he didn't deserves them all but none - nope!! He always was slow to his left honestly but he was real solid everywhere else - one or 2 were ok not 7-8........ARod waqs usually better and Visquel was maybe even better than that.

 

[mauconnfan]

I have a lot of respect for Jeter, but as a casual Yankees fan...it's sort of interesting to contrast the unadulterated adoration for Jeter with the complete indifference towards Robinson Cano leaving for Seattle. Jeter was a great player and a Hall of Famer to be sure, but his last great year was 2009, and he's been a borderline replacement level player for two years. Meanwhile, a great, homegrown Yankee in the midst of his prime leaves for Seattle, and it doesn't even seem like an event. And before you mention the money, don't kid yourself - there's no way they ever would have let Jeter or Rivera play anywhere else. They have a f'in 2 billion dollar TV deal, it's just that there is some weird reverence for Jeter that doesn't exist for other guys.

The whole thing is off-putting to me. Last I checked, Jeter's OPS hovers around .600, and there isn't a whisper about moving him down in the lineup. Then there's Cano in Seattle having an MVP type season that could have been the difference between making the playoffs and not. None of this is necessarily Jeter's fault, but watching the organization prioritize his send-off over winning seems to contradict everything he's being celebrated for.

Ridiculous to ask them to sign him for 10 years with all of the BS contracts they have with ARod and Tex.......although give me 7 yrs and Ellsbury or 10 years Cano? I would agree if you were to compare.......

And as Sox fans see their 2nd baseman slowly lose his offensive presence, much earlier than #2, they can understand. Would you let him go?

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Gold Gloves are about who managers and coaches think of as guys that play the game "the right way," that's why there's often no correlation between who wins it and who's actually the best defensive player at that position. It's also why there's a pretty strong case to be made that Jeter was the single worst defensive shortstop in the AL when he won his fifth in 2010.

Hyperventilate away . . .

 

[mauconnfan]

Gold Gloves are about who managers and coaches think of as guys that play the game "the right way," that's why there's often no correlation between who wins it and who's actually the best defensive player at that position. It's also why there's a pretty strong case to be made that Jeter was the single worst defensive shortstop in the AL when he won his fifth in 2010.

Hyperventilate away . . .

Why would I hyperventilate Crack.....you're the one picturing me choking my chicken!

 

[intlzncster]

Agree he didn't deserves them all but none - nope!! He always was slow to his left honestly but he was real solid everywhere else - one or 2 were ok not 7-8...ARod waqs usually better and Visquel was maybe even better than that.

Alex Gonzalez was better than all of them imo.

 

[intlzncster]

Ridiculous to ask them to sign him for 10 years with all of the BS contracts they have with ARod and Tex..although give me 7 yrs and Ellsbury or 10 years Cano? I would agree if you were to compare..

And as Sox fans see their 2nd baseman slowly lose his offensive presence, much earlier than #2, they can understand. Would you let him go?

Pedroia is unfortunately being undone by injuries. Once you start damaging the wrist and thumb area, you are flirting with trouble. And he can't seem to pull back his "break neck" style to compensate.

That's one of Jeter's (and Ripken's) greatest attributes: longevity/health.

 

[David 76]

Again, with the craziness. "if the hall of fame had a hall of fame."

He was good for a long time, has a .310 average and had over 78 RBI 3 times in 18 years during one of the livest ball eras in history. His fielding is suspect, especially with advanced metrics folded into the mix. Rock solid, but not crazy.

But "hall of fame for the hall of fame" belongs with the Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Sandy Koufax level players. My whole point is that the Jeter is Jesus crowd it going a bit overboard and you are making my point perfectly.

Jeter is not with the immortals but he is in the group right behind them. Top 10 runs scored, top ten hits, most durable SS in history. Then you throw in the intangibles like throwing Giambi out at the plate to save that series. A "good career" does not describe Jeter

 

[intlzncster]

Jeter is not with the immortals but he is in the group right behind them. Top 10 runs scored, top ten hits, most durable SS in history. Then you throw in the intangibles like throwing Giambi out at the plate to save that series. A "good career" does not describe Jeter

Isn't that Ripken by default?

 

[David 76]

Man, some folks love going after Jeter. Lack of RBIs? He's been a lead off hitter.
Not a good season since 2009 (when he batted 334)? Yes , he dropped to 270 in 2010.
Then he hit 297 in 11 and 316 in 12. If you forgot, he didn't play in 2013.
Have other SS outperformed him? On many given years. But none (yet) have done what Jeter did in his career. Yankee fans know A-Rod had better years. But we have no doubt which one we would prefer on our team

That said, his good-bye tour does not have the joy that Mo's had last year. Maybe too close on the heels of Mo's?
What a great franchise to have 2 home-grown stars of this caliber leaving in consecutive years. BTW, I put Mo even higher in the baseball stratosphere than Jeet.

 

[David 76]

Agree his defense is overrated. But in the history of baseball, where do you think he ranks in Offensive WAR. It is a lot higher than most people would think. He is #20 all time.

1.Babe Ruth+ (22)155.1L
2.Ty Cobb+ (24)150.9L
3.Barry Bonds (22)142.6L
4.Willie Mays+ (22)136.4R
5.Hank Aaron+ (23)131.8R
6.Ted Williams+ (19)126.3L
7.Stan Musial+ (22)124.6L
8.Tris Speaker+ (22)123.6L
9.Honus Wagner+ (21)123.0R
10.Rogers Hornsby+ (23)121.6R
11.Eddie Collins+ (25)119.6L
12.Mickey Mantle+ (18)116.0B
13.Alex Rodriguez (20, 38)113.0R
14.Lou Gehrig+ (17)112.1L
15.Frank Robinson+ (21)106.6R
16.Rickey Henderson+ (25)104.2R
17.Joe Morgan+ (22)103.7L
18.Mel Ott+ (22)103.5L
19.Nap Lajoie+ (21)97.8R
20.Derek Jeter (20, 40)95.3R

Great list. To me, Joe Morgan was the surprise

 

[David 76]

Isn't that Ripken by default?

No. Jeter has more games at short

 

[mauconnfan]

Pedroia is unfortunately being undone by injuries. Once you start damaging the wrist and thumb area, you are flirting with trouble. And he can't seem to pull back his "break neck" style to compensate.


Maybe that's true but he wasn't Jeter anyway and wasn't going to be. Good player and also plays the game the way it's supposed to be played, but not the same level. A bit overhyped nut deserving of most!

 

[mauconnfan]

Isn't that Ripken by default?

He was 34 points better than Cal average wise for his career - .276 vs .310
He had 170 hits or more 8 times vs 2 for Cal
He had 180 hits or more 15 times vs 6 for Cal
He batted .291 or better 16 times
Cal had over 200 more HR's and 200 more RBI but Jeter also lead off or batted 2nd most of his career. Certainly wouldn't have change HR's ...

Point is most whining about this "whole thing" with Jeter are Sox fans, most I said. They were fine with Ripken but now it's a different story. Pretty simple to figure out why the Waq's of the world have so much to say.

 

[intlzncster]

He was 34 points better than Cal average wise for his career - .276 vs .310
He had 170 hits or more 8 times vs 2 for Cal
He had 180 hits or more 15 times vs 6 for Cal
He batted .291 or better 16 times
Cal had over 200 more HR's and 200 more RBI but Jeter also lead off or batted 2nd most of his career. Certainly wouldn't have change HR's ...

Point is most whining about this "whole thing" with Jeter are Sox fans, most I said. They were fine with Ripken but now it's a different story. Pretty simple to figure out why the Waq's of the world have so much to say.

Jeter is a better player than Cal. I was never claiming otherwise. The statement was about durability. Cal had the record for consecutive games played = durability. David 76 pointed out that Jeter played in more total games, which is a valid point.

I don't think anyone is saying Cal is better than Jeter. Jeter was a great offensive player (HOF great).

 

[UConn990411]

I am so tired of the Jeter farewell. Who gives a crap? Great, the guy had a good career, happy for him.

But enough with the hero-worship, googly-eyes, nostalgic b^ll$h1T. He's a guy. Who played baseball and banged a ton of 23 year old models.

He didn't cure cancer or anything.

I'm not the biggest fan of guys announcing their retirement before the season ... but I'd much prefer seeing this story beaten to death than the crap that's been going on in the NFL.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm not the biggest fan of guys announcing their retirement before the season ... but I'd much prefer seeing this story beaten to death than the crap that's been going on in the NFL.

Given the choice, 100m people out of 100m would agree with you.