OT: NBA Finals

[lange10]

If Cleveland wins this, is it Lebron's crowning achievement as a bball player? And, does it trump any of Jordan's championships? I know LBJ's shooting percentage will be pretty low but I'd argue yes as Cleveland is pretty bad right now and Lebron will have to put up 35-10-10 every game for them to win. The thing that's scary is, that he will.

I've thought about this as well. First off, if Lebron wins this I don't expect to hear a peep out of the Lebron haters for quite some time, because honestly what could you even say to knock him anymore? Secondly, if he were to pull this off (I still fully expect the Warriors to win the series), I think it would be one of the greatest finals performances of all time. Certainly would be LBJ's legacy series. In my opinion it tops any championship MJ won, but that's open for debate.

 

[Gurleyman]

If they started calling proper travel in the NBA, there'd be 30 turnovers per team, minimum.

this is not a question of "proper travel" or rules nuances. This is a guy traveling all over the place - shuffling his feet on the stop and then changing his pivot foot when he had nowhere to go and getting an unfair advantage. It's just traveling. Period.

 

[FeedTheDove]

Dude - he had a terrible shooting night. He can for 40 every night the way the Warriors defend him.
And you think "everything went perfectly" for the Cavs?
JR smith 3 dumb fouls?
LeBron shooting 28% from 2?
Delavadova missing his first, what? 7 shots?
If everything had gone perfectly, they would have won by 25.

Shumpert was also an absolute disgrace offensively

 

[Kitaman]

If Cleveland wins this, is it Lebron's crowning achievement as a bball player? And, does it trump any of Jordan's championships? I know LBJ's shooting percentage will be pretty low but I'd argue yes as Cleveland is pretty bad right now and Lebron will have to put up 35-10-10 every game for them to win. The thing that's scary is, that he will.

Its a big 'if' but if he does he will have done it without a Pippen (HOF, top 50), sharpshooting Kerr, and Rodman (rebounding phenomenon) and a HOF coach: linky.

Also for him to accomplish it playing against the greatest basketball players in the world (i.e. NBA) would be historic. So the answer to me is yes it trumps MJ and Magic (who had the strongest supporting cast) and of course Kobe (Shaq and others).

What we are witnessing is a player making others better, demanding their excellence, leading by example and never giving up and those are the intangibles. Oh and doing this with a depleted roster and 1st year coach. Its all him right now. I may seem like I'm slobbering over him but its basically watching a man that does not need a miracle to win series games, he is doing it on talent alone.

We are fortunate to witness this in our lifetime, even if they lose the series. At the very least this is what 100% effort looks like from the greatest player currently playing in NBA. Very impressive even to his haters/doubters.

 

[mauconnfan]

Having watched some both teams are mediocre for finals teams but it is actually fun to watch because they are playing so hard.

this is not a question of "proper travel" or rules nuances. This is a guy traveling all over the place - shuffling his feet on the stop and then changing his pivot foot when he had nowhere to go and getting an unfair advantage. It's just traveling. Period.

Wow that's just awful. Again sometimes its treated like WWF. But admittedly because neither team is great and one is hit hard with injuries they seem to playing at a really high energy level and it's not bad to watch.

 

[CTBasketball]

this is not a question of "proper travel" or rules nuances. This is a guy traveling all over the place - shuffling his feet on the stop and then changing his pivot foot when he had nowhere to go and getting an unfair advantage. It's just traveling. Period.

Not to mention he hop stepped, which means you can't take another step. He took 3 after that including changing his pivot foot. The dude is unreal. Shabazz shows us a proper hop step here:

 

[Gurleyman]

Not to mention he hop stepped, which means you can't take another step. He took 3 after that including changing his pivot foot. The dude is unreal. Shabazz shows us a proper hop step here: YouTube Video

I don't want to come off as anti-LeBron. He was fouled clearly at the end of regulation on the hold at the start of the dribble. He had beaten Iguodala cleanly and Iguodala gained an unfair advantage by holding him to the point that I think you have to call it. So the game really should have been over in regulation more than likely (GSW would have had three or four seconds to try to score at other end, but not convinced they had a winning play in them with Curry shut down).

I'm sort of rooting for GSW because I pulled for Curry at Davidson (so close to beating Kansas, too), but on a scale of 1-10 passion wise, I'm about a 1. More just watching as an observer.

 

[boog204]

Its a big 'if' but if he does he will have done it without a Pippen (HOF, top 50), sharpshooting Kerr, and Rodman (rebounding phenomenon) and a HOF coach: linky.

Also for him to accomplish it playing against the greatest basketball players in the world (i.e. NBA) would be historic. So the answer to me is yes it trumps MJ and Magic (who had the strongest supporting cast) and of course Kobe (Shaq and others).

What we are witnessing is a player making others better, demanding their excellence, leading by example and never giving up and those are the intangibles. Oh and doing this with a depleted roster and 1st year coach. Its all him right now. I may seem like I'm slobbering over him but its basically watching a man that does not need a miracle to win series games, he is doing it on talent alone.

We are fortunate to witness this in our lifetime, even if they lose the series. At the very least this is what 100% effort looks like from the greatest player currently playing in NBA. Very impressive even to his haters/doubters.

I agree completely... I am far from a Lebron lover. I think he is an amazing basketball player but I still gravitate towards MJ in any "GOAT" argument. But Jordan did have a solid to outstanding surrounding cast. In addition to Pippen (who is one of the most underrated players in history), Jordan always had other borderline all star talent to work with and specialists who filled their role perfectly. Lebron (without Kyree and Love) has a bunch of castoffs, potential (Thompson), and a first-year coach who at times has looked clueless. It really is amazing what he's doing.

 

[Gurleyman]

If Cleveland wins this, is it Lebron's crowning achievement as a bball player? And, does it trump any of Jordan's championships? I know LBJ's shooting percentage will be pretty low but I'd argue yes as Cleveland is pretty bad right now and Lebron will have to put up 35-10-10 every game for them to win. The thing that's scary is, that he will.

I think a title here erases all the little blemishes on LBJ's resume (Dallas series, Game 6 finish, Kawhi Leonard) that his detractors bring up and basically puts him on a course to stand toe to toe with Jordan on the GOAT debate (figuring one or two more titles, perhaps). Jordan's final title was with a broken down Pippen and an aging Rodman and the basket, steal, basket finish was pretty epic. But Kukoc was in his prime and healthy and you'd have to say he alone is better than Tristan Thompson. And even an injured Pippen demands attention.

The one advantage that LBJ has in this series is facing a team who has never been there before. If he can do all the little things he's doing to keep the games close, between his greatness and GSW's unfamiliarity with this sort of pressure, it's doable. If I'm GSW, I want double digit leads in the third quarter every time - give them some leeway to overcome a LeBron barrage (and their own yips). I don't want one-possession games after the last media timeout.

 

[TasteofUConn]

this is not a question of "proper travel" or rules nuances.

The gentleman doth protest too much.

Look man, I get your point. Your point is that he traveled, and it was more than just a little travel. Agreed.
But I disagree that the NBA does not let that type of thing go a lot. They do. All the time. In every game. I've seen guys take FOUR steps from the 3 arc and dunk without dribbling. Foot shuffling? My goodness, it's like those dudes who use to shuffle in sand to make noise on TV (why the hell was that ever worth watching?) Extra hop step? Check. Change pivot foot? Check. It's let go all the time.
Karate chop to elbow/bicep that CLEARLY prevents the shot from going up? Virtually ALWAYS called.

So the point isn't that the travel could have been called. Of course it could have.
It's that the "the travel negates the arm hack" is very poor logic - because travels - even egregious ones, are let go all the time, while arm hack are almost never let go.
This is just more LeBron hating, trying to rationalize why the blown call on the arm hack wasn't a game-changing blown call.

 

[TasteofUConn]

It's going to be interesting to see how Curry does in game 3. If he does not do well, then that will be 4 games in a row against the Cavs, with LeBron, in which he has not done well. That there will be what we'd call a "pattern." Either that or we're going to have to consider hanging the label "choker" on him.
Heard some guy on the radio this morning claiming that his fall in Houston game 4 may be to blame. What?

 

[Scoe]

Dude, really?

REALLY, Curry deserved to win the MVP it doesn't mean he's a better player. Can you just enjoy watching

 

[James]

lots of hot damn near sizzling takes on curry and gsw this morning I see. curry doesn't deserve mvp because they dropped game 2?

 

[tzznandrew]

lots of hot damn near sizzling takes on curry and gsw this morning I see. curry doesn't deserve mvp because they dropped game 2?

The Spurs lost game 2 last year also, and while they beat the Heat by 15 in Game 1, that was because of LeBron's cramps: Heat went into the 4th quarter up 78-74.

 

[TasteofUConn]

REALLY, Curry deserved to win the MVP it doesn't mean he's a better player. Can you just enjoy watching

No, I meant I can't believe you thought I was serious and then clarified that the MVP regular season award couldn't be switched to LeBron because Curry already had it.
I agree that it made sense for the MVP to go to Curry - good for the league, stats back it up. But is was like when Karl Malone got it over Jordan - the numbers don't tell the story.

 

[superjohn]

lots of hot damn near sizzling takes on curry and gsw this morning I see. curry doesn't deserve mvp because they dropped game 2?

I was kidding when I said he should have to give back his trophy, was just trying to illustrate how bad he was. Are people seriously saying he doesn't deserve the MVP?

 

[tzznandrew]

Here's a thought: does 2015 Dellavedova = 2001 Tyron Lue?

In that, I mean a scrappy, irritating player who isn't as athletic as the person he's guarding but can bother them just enough, but ideally should only do so for about 10 minutes a game?

He played Curry well, and Curry seemed genuinely unable to respond to his defense...but Curry has been guarded by much better players in the past. I wonder if he decides to go all Davidson on him, and worry less about the pick and rolls and just beat him off the ball.

 

[James]

I was kidding when I said he should have to give back his trophy, was just trying to illustrate how bad he was. Are people seriously saying he doesn't deserve the MVP?

i was referring to the poster who compared curry to malone in 97.

 

[champs99and04]

No, I meant I can't believe you thought I was serious and then clarified that the MVP regular season award couldn't be switched to LeBron because Curry already had it.
I agree that it made sense for the MVP to go to Curry - good for the league, stats back it up. But is was like when Karl Malone got it over Jordan - the numbers don't tell the story.

No, the numbers do tell the story. Curry was sensational this season and elevated his team from good to historically dominant. It wasn't just that it "made sense," he deserved it.

 

[kyleslamb]

No, the numbers do tell the story. Curry was sensational this season and elevated his team from good to historically dominant. It wasn't just that it "made sense," he deserved it.

Look, Curry is a great player and it's not that he's undeserving of such recognition, but if you're truly going to give the award to the "most valuable" there is no way anyone can argue that is not LeBron James. The guy is and has been for eight years, the most valuable player in the league. Period. If anyone doubted that before, the playoffs should be proof positive. The Cavs just had not one but two all-star players removed from this postseason due to injury, and here we are with the Cavs at 1-1 and holding homecourt advantage against this "historically dominant" team you speak of. Take Klay Thompson and Draymond Green from Golden State and I guarantee you... double guarantee you... the Warriors are not in this position.

Even statistically though, you can easily make a case LeBron was the deserving MVP.

Lebron (25.3 PPG, 7.4 APG, 6.0 RPG, 48.8% FG)
Curry (23..8 PPG, 7.7 APG, 4.3 RPG, 48.7% FG)

With eFG%, turnovers and everything else factored in, the advanced metrics give a slight edge to Curry, but again, you can still easily make a case for LeBron based only on statistics. But in the real world, it should be obvious to anyone watching basketball that LeBron's value far exceeds any other player out there. Need it be reminded that the Cavs went from 60 wins in 2010 to 19 wins the following season; that the Heat went from 58 wins last year to 34 this year; the Cavs were just 2-11 without LeBron this season. LeBron is and always has been the MOST VALUABLE player in this league.

 

[Lefty2one]

Welcome to the NBA, where this is neither a travel nor a foul.

Three blatant travels and a foul where no contact was made with the ball.

 

[tzznandrew]

Look, Curry is a great player and it's not that he's undeserving of such recognition, but if you're truly going to give the award to the "most valuable" there is no way anyone can argue that is not LeBron James. The guy is and has been for eight years, the most valuable player in the league. Period. If anyone doubted that before, the playoffs should be proof positive. The Cavs just had not one but two all-star players removed from this postseason due to injury, and here we are with the Cavs at 1-1 and holding homecourt advantage against this "historically dominant" team you speak of. Take Klay Thompson and Draymond Green from Golden State and I guarantee you... double guarantee you... the Warriors are not in this position.

Even statistically though, you can easily make a case LeBron was the deserving MVP.

Lebron (25.3 PPG, 7.4 APG, 6.0 RPG, 48.8% FG)
Curry (23..8 PPG, 7.7 APG, 4.3 RPG, 48.7% FG)

With eFG%, turnovers and everything else factored in, the advanced metrics give a slight edge to Curry, but again, you can still easily make a case for LeBron based only on statistics. But in the real world, it should be obvious to anyone watching basketball that LeBron's value far exceeds any other player out there. Need it be reminded that the Cavs went from 60 wins in 2010 to 19 wins the following season; that the Heat went from 58 wins last year to 34 this year; the Cavs were just 2-11 without LeBron this season. LeBron is and always has been the MOST VALUABLE player in this league.

It was certainly close in the regular season, but don't forget that LeBron missed 13 games.

Curry also put up those numbers in 32 mpg whereas LeBron did it in 36 mpg. His advanced metrics, as you pointed out, were better also (28 PER/15.7 WS vs. 26 PER/10.4 WS).

LeBron is the better player, but this isn't a 1997 MJ vs. Malone debate (which to be fair was pretty close by advanced metrics: MJ's PER was 27.8 with 18.3 WS vs. Malone's 28.9 PER and 16.7 WS). Curry had, statistically speaking, the better regular season. This gets into question about whether "Most Valuable" means most important to team or best player, but I'd say the voters made the right call no matter what happens in these Finals.

 

[superjohn]

Look, Curry is a great player and it's not that he's undeserving of such recognition, but if you're truly going to give the award to the "most valuable" there is no way anyone can argue that is not LeBron James. The guy is and has been for eight years, the most valuable player in the league. Period. If anyone doubted that before, the playoffs should be proof positive. The Cavs just had not one but two all-star players removed from this postseason due to injury, and here we are with the Cavs at 1-1 and holding homecourt advantage against this "historically dominant" team you speak of. Take Klay Thompson and Draymond Green from Golden State and I guarantee you... double guarantee you... the Warriors are not in this position.

Even statistically though, you can easily make a case LeBron was the deserving MVP.

Lebron (25.3 PPG, 7.4 APG, 6.0 RPG, 48.8% FG)
Curry (23..8 PPG, 7.7 APG, 4.3 RPG, 48.7% FG)

With eFG%, turnovers and everything else factored in, the advanced metrics give a slight edge to Curry, but again, you can still easily make a case for LeBron based only on statistics. But in the real world, it should be obvious to anyone watching basketball that LeBron's value far exceeds any other player out there. Need it be reminded that the Cavs went from 60 wins in 2010 to 19 wins the following season; that the Heat went from 58 wins last year to 34 this year; the Cavs were just 2-11 without LeBron this season. LeBron is and always has been the MOST VALUABLE player in this league.

Curry deserved the award this year, best player on by far the best team. If the award was always given to the best player in the world then Jordan would have won 10 in a row and Lebron would have won 8 in a row. Not fair looking at Heat record from last year and this year, of course they are a lot worse without Lebron but they would have been a playoff team this year without all the injuries.

 

[kyleslamb]

Curry deserved the award this year, best player on by far the best team. If the award was always given to the best player in the world then Jordan would have won 10 in a row and Lebron would have won 8 in a row. Not fair looking at Heat record from last year and this year, of course they are a lot worse without Lebron but they would have been a playoff team this year without all the injuries.

The award isn't "best player on best team" it's "most valuable player." I'm not concerned with how the award has been administered in the past, I'm more concerned with how it should be administered. Whether Jordan actually won 10 in a row or not (he actually would not have because he took 1 3/4 seasons off from basketball anyhow) is irrelevant. It doesn't mean it was justified that he didn't.

Everyone agrees that LeBron is still the best player on the planet. So if he is, how is he not still the most valuable? His value to everything involved, both with what can be measure and what cannot be measured, clearly exceeds that of anyone else.

As far as the Heat, the injuries are kind of a bogus copout. Even with LeBron there, the heat had injuries quite often. When was Bosh and especially Wade NOT injured or hobbling? The last year and half, they were always banged up. In fact, Wade actually played 10 more games this year than he did last year with LeBron there. Bosh obviously missed a lot of games, but he was playing through a lot of injuries last year, so he wasn't exactly healthy. The Heat may have been a playoff team if they were 'healthy' (which with Wade wouldn't be a realistic expectation at this point), but they wouldn't have won a ton of games.

 

[TasteofUConn]

to historically dominant.

We can put that tired talking point to rest.
They just gave up a game winning shot to a Love-less Cavs at home, followed by a game winning shot to a Love-less, Irving-less Cavs at home all while managing to lead fewer than 30 minutes of the two games. "Historically dominant" teams don't get punked on their homecourt like that, and winning by 30 in the next 3 games won't change that. The East may have been historically bad this year, but that certainly doesn't make this GSW team better than they are.