OT: Mizzou black football players taking a stand

[upstater]

Dude. What?
We can't even agree on what affirmative action is.

You are clueless here. Affirmative action ever since Schuette (which banned bringing race into admission decisions) can only and simply now be understood as bringing ad hoc or informal criteria to the admission process. In other words, no more quotas. So, either we all understand that Affirmative Action no longer exists in admission standards as per the law of the USA (Supreme Court) or we understand that it is now an informal process. If it's an informal process, I guarantee you that there are a lot more legacies admitted to these academic institutions (that would not otherwise be admitted on their record) rather than minority students who would not be admitted. Not to even mention the students who signal to admission committees the willingness to pay full freight over and above the actual cost per student.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I'm not a sociologist, and I know social sciences had been viewed as less rigorous than, say physics. But they've gotten much better over the past few decades and now their experiments are better designed. Plus there are now starting to be studies in neuroscience that confirm the implicit bias that I mentioned earlier.

Anyway, we're wasting our time here if you can simply explain away whole fields of science away with "anyone can produce any results they wish to achieve". What a convenient defense mechanism to insulate your worldview from self-examination.

So you read the study I presume?

 

[junglehusky]

You're kidding right?

???

I have written manuscripts in scientific journals. You get the reviewer's comments back as "Reviewer #1, Reviewer #2, Reviewer #3". You can guess who it is but there's no way to know for sure. The editors coordinate the process.

 

[SubbaBub]

So you believe that sending 2 black people and 2 white people, who have been hand picked and coached, and who may have known the purpose, out for job interviews constitutes legitimate science?

Also, do you agree that I could get the same results with 2 redheads and 2 blondes?

Taller people have more success, as do more attractive people. Why is the idea of black people suffering a built in disadvantage a mystery to you.

That is without considering that we are two generations from segregation, and less than one generation from housing and public school discrimination. Throw in the impact of the introduction of drug epidemic amongst the poor and come up with a good argument that the playing field is level.

 

[junglehusky]

So you read the study I presume?

I've read science journalism / newspaper pieces reporting on the field. Not an expert (neither is anyone else here probably).

 

[upstater]

Tough to remain focused on various subjects in a marathon discussion like this upstate.

I have read nothing to suggest that anyone around here thinks that things like a "white girls only" party (and I submit that there are probably a fair number of college age black guys that wouldn't mind a party like that - how's that for inflammatory?) but nobody I"ve read is suggesting that such a thing, or being stopped disproportionately by cops ona college campus, or even the grading issues you've brought up, are not both individual and system issues involving racism that need to be cleaned up. Nor has anyone I"ve read suggest that anything on the UMisssouri campus happening did NOT warrant a major protest social action of some sort to initiate change. I've read lots, and I"ve commented that the concepts that both went into the action at Missouri, and the responses coming out, are suspect - meaning that it's highlyl likely that nothing good is going to come of any of it. That's incredibly unfortunate if true, and I hope I'm wrong - but the signs are not good.

As for the concepts of socioeconomic status and racial inequality - this is an entirely different issue being discussed.

You yourself have written that people need to keep on point - in this discussion.

Follow your own advice.

Everything I've written is about the issues on campus. Show me where I'm discussing anything else.

I took issue to a post of his (which you apparently liked) that slandered the students and then went on to link their protests to a host of societal ills. What was the common denominator here? The students are black.

That's what I objected to.

 

[Carl Spackler]

???

I have written manuscripts in scientific journals. You get the reviewer's comments back as "Reviewer #1, Reviewer #2, Reviewer #3". You can guess who it is but there's no way to know for sure. The editors make sure.

The makeup of any peer review panel is not a secret, when you do it enough, you're going to be able to figure out who reviewer #1 - 2 -3 etc. are.

 

[junglehusky]

The makeup of any peer review panel is not a secret, when you do it enough, you're going to be able to figure out who reviewer #1 - 2 -3 etc. are.

Have you gone through the peer review system?

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I've read science journalism / newspaper pieces reporting on the field. Not an expert (neither is anyone else here probably).

So you haven't read this study, yet you feel inclined to project what my beliefs are based on my comments about the study. Is that right?

For the record, I do believe that blacks are less likely to be called back for second interviews than whites all things being equal. But this "study" doesn't prove that I'm right.

 

[upstater]

The world is the world as it is and it is a vast and complex place. Your world view is founded on what you don't know more than what you do.

So, when these idiots, Ben Carson being the latest one, spout off on lack of respect for their workviews, they are really asking to excuse their ignorance.

To show the other side is not immune to this phenomenon, the worldview of the woman defending the safe space tent from journalists was ignorant to the role of journalism in a free society and that public spaces are open to all.

She was out of line but I can almost forgive her for being very protective of those students against the inevitability of dreck like this: http://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...he-entire-mizzou-protest-based-on-lies-111115

That whole group screwed up because they were pushing around an actual Missouri student. Less condemnation from me if they were pushing around Clay Travis.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Have you gone through the peer review system?

I've been through both sides of peer review, in more ways than you can possibly imagine.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Yes I believe that and upstater does as well. To believe otherwise would be to believe that black people are inherently inferior to whites... Or in other words to be a racist. People have tried to explain to you what institutional racism is and how it can condemn a large portion of society to poverty but you refuse to accept fact and history to protect your racist beliefs. You're a racist. Own it

I proudly own that, by your definition, I'm a racist.
I said that many black people make poor choices, and those choices have substantially caused their poor economic results. You have responded, if I understand you, that my argument is an "inherent inferiority" argument.

I view your response as a means to prevent discussion of the point raised by the other side. I made no comment or argument at all about inherent characteristics. In fact, quite oppositely, my argument depends entirely on culture and choices.

Your position is now this - citing black culture and choices as a cause for black economic hardship is equivalent to citing black inherent inferiority, and thus racist.

Certainly that is bizarre, but I'll give you this - you'll never have to be bothered considering the impact of culture and choices on result!

 

[junglehusky]

So you haven't read this study, yet you feel inclined to project what my beliefs are based on my comments about the study. Is that right?

For the record, I do believe that blacks are less likely to be called back for second interviews than whites all things being equal. But this "study" doesn't prove that I'm right.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb, based on your comments about "garbage studies" and "anyone can produce whatever result" that whether the science is well designed or not, your mind is already made up and you aren't willing to consider the data.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Everything I've written is about the issues on campus. Show me where I'm discussing anything else.

I took issue to a post of his (which you apparently liked) that slandered the students and then went on to link their protests to a host of societal ills. What was the common denominator here? The students are black.

That's what I objected to.

I think it was #336 that I clicked like on. It had to do with a response to a piece of literature that was previously cited, and the critique of that piece of literature, which I agreed with - that was contrary to the critique of the literature provided by person that originally linked it.

 

[junglehusky]

I've been through both sides of peer review, in more ways than you can possibly imagine.

Then you have experience, as do I and many of my peers, in how brutally critical peer reviewers are.

 

[SubbaBub]

I've read science journalism / newspaper pieces reporting on the field. Not an expert (neither is anyone else here probably).

You'd would be wrong. The BY actually has quite a roster of experts in a number of areas. It's easy to see if you know what to look at.

The desire for anonymity is what keeps their CV's private.

 

[TasteofUConn]

The world is the world as it is and it is a vast and complex place.

I believe the world is very small, and very simple.
Not sure I understood the rest of your post.

 

[TasteofUConn]

For the record, your views are racist by any fair measure.

Which "view" makes me a racist, by your definition?

 

[tzznandrew]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...er-social-media-threats-of-violence/75559034/

Again. These students clearly had nothing to be afraid of.

Also, I have read and linked to the article in question. If we are going to dismiss the work of actual sociologists--sociologists publishing in a prestigious journal--merely because we don't like their results, I don't know what to say.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I don't think I'm going out on a limb, based on your comments about "garbage studies" and "anyone can produce whatever result" that whether the science is well designed or not, your mind is already made up and you aren't willing to consider the data.

I took the time to actually read the study. You didn't. The study confirmed my beliefs, but in no way shape or form do I think it PROVES it.

Isn't it just as telling that you are endorsing a study that you haven't even taken the time to read? Do you believe that all published studies are flawless and beyond reproach?

 

[TasteofUConn]

What a convenient defense mechanism to insulate your worldview from self-examination.

You conveniently rely on a garbage pseudo-science "study."
If somebody took the time to produce an equivalent "study" that showed no bias in hiring, would you not be the first person claiming bias?

 

[Carl Spackler]

I proudly own that, by your definition, I'm a racist.
I said that many black people make poor choices, and those choices have substantially caused their poor economic results. You have responded, if I understand you, that my argument is an "inherent inferiority" argument.

I view your response as a means to prevent discussion of the point raised by the other side. I made no comment or argument at all about inherent characteristics. In fact, quite oppositely, my argument depends entirely on culture and choices.

Your position is now this - citing black culture and choices as a cause for black economic hardship is equivalent to citing black inherent inferiority, and thus racist.

Certainly that is bizarre, but I'll give you this - you'll never have to be bothered considering the impact of culture and choices on result!

I cannot tell you how many times and in different places in cultures I have run into this among adults embedded in their own lives. I used an analogy of battlefield medicine in this discussion. I'm no battalion surgeon, but I've had to go through training and trained others. You need to make hard choices sometimes, and I think - if you pay close attention to this entire 12 page mess - that an objective observer, if knowledgeable and experienced enough, can probably read through, and find the minds - expressed through words - that still have a very good opportunity to break through molds and open up.

 

[tzznandrew]

Which "view" makes me a racist, by your definition?

I'm not going to say you're racist, especially not in the older, 1960s sense. And hell, if we could chat about this over beer we'd probably have a great time. I've generally enjoyed your posts and our discussions on the basketball board, too.

But those ideas fundamentally racist. Your point is that black people are poor because there is something inferior about them or your culture. They are somehow deficient. You've also, I think, mischaracterized both dominant "white culture" and dominant "black culture," and I think that plays a role.

 

[SubbaBub]

She was out of line but I can almost forgive her for being very protective of those students against the inevitability of dreck like this: http://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...he-entire-mizzou-protest-based-on-lies-111115

That whole group screwed up because they were pushing around an actual Missouri student. Less condemnation from me if they were pushing around Clay Travis.

The whole episode is more interesting to me as an example of ragged execution of a campaign than the underlying issues.

The protest leader had a legitimate grievance, but was a tad over eager, IMO, in his desire to make a big splash vs addressing the matters at hand. The list of demands appeared to be that of an amateur group effort. It almost seemed like there should be a demand for extra desserts in the dining hall. It appeared that slapped together.

The president, who was clearly lacking support from anyone on campus, isn't the reason for the atmosphere in campus and replacing him does not necessarily help the cause. He made the correct decision to resign, for this reason. It will be interesting to see what does actually happen in terms of campus code of conduct and enforcement thereof.

It was a brilliant move to enlist the FB team, but we will see this won't work elsewhere. Ithaca College is about to find this out.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Then you have experience, as do I and many of my peers, in how brutally critical peer reviewers are.

absolutely.

What you'll find as you get older and more experienced, is that the motivations behind the brutality have a wide spectrum.

 

[TasteofUConn]

So, either we all understand that Affirmative Action no longer exists in admission standards as per the law of the USA (Supreme Court) or we understand that it is now an informal process.

You're scary here, and your assessment of the law is incorrect.

 

[SubbaBub]

I believe the world is very small, and very simple.
Not sure I understood the rest of your post.

Which "view" makes me a racist, by your definition?

"That is why you fail."

-Yoda

 

[Carl Spackler]

I'm not going to say you're racist, especially not in the older, 1960s sense. And hell, if we could chat about this over beer we'd probably have a great time. I've generally enjoyed your posts and our discussions on the basketball board, too.

But those ideas fundamentally racist. Your point is that black people are poor because there is something inferior about them or your culture. They are somehow deficient. You've also, I think, mischaracterized both dominant "white culture" and dominant "black culture," and I think that plays a role.

Once again, this is an extremist position based on the words that have been typed - and it's incorrect.

 

[Pudge]

That is an extremist position you are taking, and it's not correct.

I don't agree. We see a world we don't know everything about ... but we collectively don't believe a skin color means that the person is inferior. We listen to the studies and have a thoughtful concern of what we hear. Stating categorically that Blacks are where they are due to their own choices ... or ANOTHER extreme example - Native Americans (raised on reservations) are in distressed situations due to their own choices ... just doesn't square with the last 25 years of history nor particularly the history since 1865.

 

[TasteofUConn]

You need to make hard choices sometimes, and I think - if you pay close attention to this entire 12 page mess - that an objective observer, if knowledgeable and experienced enough, can probably read through, and find the minds - expressed through words - that still have a very good opportunity to break through molds and open up.

I desperately appreciate your thoughts here. Frankly, however, the recent trends in college intolerance of diverse expression, and the generally shrill, irrational, bludgeoning approach taken by the loyal opposition in this thread, are frightening.
Those who wish to suppress open discussion of race in this country are bordering on religious zealotry in their efforts to stifle discussion.
The great irony here is that they are hurting the people they are trying to help, notwithstanding any short term gains they may attain.