OT: Mizzou black football players taking a stand

[ConnHuskBask]

This is a long thread, so I'm sure you missed it, but we've already discussed the specific courses of action requested, like changes to the code of conduct and diversity and racial sensitivity courses. Those requests were made by the same group two years ago--and ignored.

Do racial sensitivity courses really solve anything though? Same with any mandatory sensitivity training.

Code of conduct changes too? I think that's a slippery slope to start a policy based on someone's right of speech, however ludicrous it could be. Where do you draw the line? Was this comment or action offensive to this person, or that person?

In addition, these are just changes in academia. In the real world, I still don't see specific courses of action.

I could be missing that, but it's a lot of noise to sort through.

 

[upstater]

Do racial sensitivity courses really solve anything though? Same with any mandatory sensitivity training.

Code of conduct changes too? I think that's a slippery slope to start a policy based on someone's right of speech, however ludicrous it could be. Where do you draw the line? Was this comment or action offensive to this person, or that person?

In addition, these are just changes in academia. In the real world, I still don't see specific courses of action.

I could be missing that, but it's a lot of noise to sort through.

First, these are all best practices at many other universities, and U Missouri simply chose not to adopt them, or even address the students saying they were a need.

Second, I do think those courses are highly effective in a number of ways. These classes begin with the assumption that the vast majority of white people are simply not aware of the day-to-day racial slights that confront blacks. The simple act of becoming more aware does mean something. And, if people who are open to changing the way they think about race actual manage to change, then of course things improve for black people, and for those who are highly resistant to change, well then at the very least they learn to muzzle the types of racist things they'd otherwise say.

Code of conduct for speech has been around a long time at many universities. I presented just a few examples in this thread. These codes are decades old. You draw the line when someone makes racist speech. Racist speech is actually not allowed in a university classroom, and depending on the nature of the discussion--whether a student makes a comment out of ignorance, or else as an insult--this would determine how things are handled.

 

[huskypantz]

Eh, all they asked for was an apology. Even if he didn't mean it the way they took it, he owed them that.

I saw nothing from the wiki that truly indicated that this was a one-sided event where he just owed them an apology. Were the women being obnoxiously loud? Did he politely ask them to be quiet? Was this a regular occurrence?

 

[upstater]

I saw nothing from the wiki that truly indicated that this was a one-sided event where he just owed them an apology. Were the women being obnoxiously loud? Did he politely ask them to be quiet? Was this a regular occurrence?

In the wiki, it explained he was asked to issue an apology. His words could have been taken 3 ways: One, it could have referred to their heftiness. Two, he calls people by animal names when they don't comport to his standards of human civilization. Three, he calls blacks by animal names as though they're less than human. He said he meant number 2. They said they heard number 3. It could be he meant number one and they heard number one but that wouldn't have been a controversy. Regardless, you just apologize and move on, if you're smart, since the words themselves can be insulting to fat people, racist to blacks, or as he said just a common way of insulting people in Yiddish.

 

[huskypantz]

In the wiki, it explained he was asked to issue an apology. His words could have been taken 3 ways: One, it could have referred to their heftiness. Two, he calls people by animal names when they don't comport to his standards of human civilization. Three, he calls blacks by animal names as though they're less than human. He said he meant number 2. They said they heard number 3. It could be he meant number one and they heard number one but that wouldn't have been a controversy. Regardless, you just apologize and move on, if you're smart, since the words themselves can be insulting to fat people, racist to blacks, or as he said just a common way of insulting people in Yiddish.

I read that. But what predicated the verbal attack? I don't think this was a Turrets Syndrome moment.

 

[BlueDogs]

Do you have any original ideas to contribute, or are you just going to trot out tired clichés from talk radio and falsehoods?

Check the statistics (FBI, DOE, State). The fact that you choose to ignore them is willful ignorance or denial. If you want to deal with helping your fellow man and ensuring equality and mutual respect, you start from honesty.

 

[tzznandrew]

Check the statistics (FBI, DOE, State). The fact that you choose to ignore them is willful ignorance or denial. If you want to deal with helping your fellow man and ensuring equality and mutual respect, you start from honesty.

So you can explain them by saying black people are just naturally worse than white people (more violent, worse culture, whatever you want to say), or you can explain them by looking at how those same statistics track with poverty. Oh, guess what, poor urban blacks and poor urban whites commit crimes at roughly same rate! (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137).

So then these sorts of things are tracked to poverty. And people of color are disproportionately in poverty. Why? Well, lots of systemic reasons, like, say, the point I keep bringing up that qualified black candidates for a job are called back less frequently than whites with felonies on their records. Or that, first, black people weren't given equal access to federal programs to buy houses...and when they finally were white flight essentially eviscerated any equity they had.

I mean, I can go on and on explaining how our programs--at the federal and the state level--functioned for years to keep African Americans poor. But you don't want to hear that. You want to suggest that black people are just more violent, it seems.

 

[upstater]

I read that. But what predicated the verbal attack? I don't think this was a Turrets Syndrome moment.

They were too loud in the quad outside his dorm room

 

[junglehusky]

So you can explain them by saying black people are just naturally worse than white people (more violent, worse culture, whatever you want to say), or you can explain them by looking at how those same statistics track with poverty. Oh, guess what, poor urban blacks and poor urban whites commit crimes at roughly same rate! (http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137).

So then these sorts of things are tracked to poverty. And people of color are disproportionately in poverty. Why? Well, lots of systemic reasons, like, say, the point I keep bringing up that qualified black candidates for a job are called back less frequently than whites with felonies on their records. Or that, first, black people weren't given equal access to federal programs to buy houses...and when they finally were white flight essentially eviscerated any equity they had.

I mean, I can go on and on explaining how our programs--at the federal and the state level--functioned for years to keep African Americans poor. But you don't want to hear that. You want to suggest that black people are just more violent, it seems.

Kudos to you for trying, but I suspect actual data and logic aren't going to be enough when someone's worldview is already ossified. Yargle bargle the poor whites who commit crimes are being influenced by urban culture and rap music yargle bargle blarg!

 

[tzznandrew]

Honestly, I just want to make sure we're laying our assumptions on the table, and taking them where they actually go. His assumptions lead pretty directly the conclusion that black people are inferior--either naturally (genetics) or culturally.

 

[huskypantz]

They were too loud in the quad outside his dorm room

Overly simplistic description but they probably bear 50% of the fault and they're the action, not the reaction.

 

[Alum86]

HCBD Shoulda kicked the FG. We'd be bowling. That's our connection.
The over sensitive brats ON THE PC Grievance train at Mizzou can suck it.

 

[Carl Spackler]

53,881 37,767
11,080 3,817
3,621 3,064
5,110 2,843


What does that table represent?

First column is the number children in a U.S. Census 2014 study by racial profile with age distribution 0-18. white, black, asian, all others of same 2 parent race - in order.

The second column is the number of those children in column one, by racial profile that live with two parents in a marriage that are same race.

If you look at those numbers and do a quick percentage of kids age 0-18 living with 2 parents of the same race: white: 71%, black: 34%, asian: 85%, others: 56%

There is plenty of data in the link below on interracial parenting as well - because that's were multiculturalism and respect for multiculturalism long term is really is going to come from.

Make what you will of this data.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/families/data/cps2014C.html

FYI: My parents did not look the same.

 

[tzznandrew]

HCBD Shoulda kicked the FG. We'd be bowling. That's our connection.
The over sensitive brats ON THE PC Grievance train at Mizzou can suck it.

I love how a bunch of students on Missouri's campus can have lived experience of people doing racist things, and they are all "over sensitive brats ON THE PC Grievance train." It's amazing how certain you are of these things despite being thousands of miles from campus.

 

[Alum86]

Yeah, I am sure robed Klansmen on horses are riding through campus burning crosses. These folks just destroyed the president's career.

 

[Stainmaster]

Yeah, I am sure robed Klansmen on horses are riding through campus burning crosses. These folks just destroyed the president's career.

Let me guess, if you were alive in the 1960s you would've weeped and moaned for the lunch counter owners whose lost business because of sit-ins, no?

 

[tzznandrew]

Yeah, I am sure robed Klansmen on horses are riding through campus burning crosses. These folks just destroyed the president's career.

Nice job jumping 5 steps.

How about: the president didn't do his job for more than just this community. If he did, a football team couldn't have ousted him.

I'm not going to feel sorry for guy clearly this unpopular.

 

[bballgrda]

Yes, popularity determines who is right and who is wrong. That's why our great society is modeled after a democracy.

Don't mind the dependence on intelligent, informed, critical-thinking, non-biased individuals. Those conditions are surely built in by default to the citizens of our great nation. Furthermore, universities harboring "safe spaces" clearly act to further these qualities.

 

[upstater]

Overly simplistic description but they probably bear 50% of the fault and they're the action, not the reaction.

I have no idea what point you're making here. 50% of the fault of potentially racist comments?

 

[Doggie Style]

How the HELL is this thread 11 pages!!???

 

[upstater]

People are once again discussing the whole of US race issues when college race issues are more specific. For instance, black students AND faculty constantly stopped on campus to ask for ID. Since 1986, I've spent all but 3 years on a college campus and have never once been asked for an ID. This happens regularly to blacks. Or, what about the blind tests in which student work is regraded by professors in the field but without knowledge of the students' background? The scores show higher grades for students of color when the professor doesn't know their race, and lower scores for white students. There are all sorts of privileges on campus that are not equally shared. Even at Yale you have a frat with a "White Girls Only" policy for parties. Or even then the inevitable assumptions about affirmative action.

 

[traitor71]

Yeah, I am sure robed Klansmen on horses are riding through campus burning crosses. These folks just destroyed the president's career.

The tweets and Facebook posts about the "klan overrunning the campus" just make me shake my head. What were those people trying to accomplish? Even the student body president ran with it and then had to apologize for it. Were those people just trying to undermine what was accomplished by the protests, or were they really just that stupid and somehow thought it would help?

 

[TasteofUConn]

This is the tail wagging the dog. This and Yale. This will all blow up. It will take some more time. But when it does, and Joe six pack is standing in a bread line, the tolerance given to these self-indulgent, delusional, faux-victims will be replaced by an irrepressible hostility, and all will revert to the mean.

Black people have mostly themselves to blame for where they have put themselves in modern America. Allowing themselves to believe that it's oppression by others, and not poor behavior on their part, is their main problem. The first step to improving the lot of black people in America would be for black people to take responsibility for their decisions. But that's where we're at. The white elephant in the room is that the dominant black culture, which is embraced wholeheartedly by most blacks, who also mock and dislike the dominant white culture, is the main impetus behind black self-impoverishment.

Work hard. Take care of children you bring into this world. Value education. Respect women. Avoid excessive use of drugs. Protest unjust laws nonviolently.

Martin Luther King would be appalled at how far his people have fallen.

 

[upstater]

This is the tail wagging the dog. This and Yale. This will all blow up. It will take some more time. But when it does, and Joe six pack is standing in a bread line, the tolerance given to these self-indulgent, delusional, faux-victims will be replaced by an irrepressible hostility, and all will revert to the mean.

Black people have mostly themselves to blame for where they have put themselves in modern America. Allowing themselves to believe that it's oppression by others, and not poor behavior on their part, is their main problem. The first step to improving the lot of black people in America would be for black people to take responsibility for their decisions. But that's where we're at. The white elephant in the room is that the dominant black culture, which is embraced wholeheartedly by most blacks, who also mock and dislike the dominant white culture, is the main impetus behind black self-impoverishment.

Work hard. Take care of children you bring into this world. Value education. Respect women. Avoid excessive use of drugs. Protest unjust laws nonviolently.

Martin Luther King would be appalled at how far his people have fallen.

You seem to have missed that these are college students.

Are you saying you worked harder than the black students at Yale?

Then why didn't you apply to Yale?

I mean, they were screwing and having children, taking drugs, getting arrested for breaking laws, and they still managed to get into Yale. You meanwhile were chaste, on the straight and narrow, and somehow you still didn't accomplish what they did.

What does that say about your relative abilities?

 

[junglehusky]

This is the tail wagging the dog. This and Yale. This will all blow up. It will take some more time. But when it does, and Joe six pack is standing in a bread line, the tolerance given to these self-indulgent, delusional, faux-victims will be replaced by an irrepressible hostility, and all will revert to the mean.

Black people have mostly themselves to blame for where they have put themselves in modern America. Allowing themselves to believe that it's oppression by others, and not poor behavior on their part, is their main problem. The first step to improving the lot of black people in America would be for black people to take responsibility for their decisions. But that's where we're at. The white elephant in the room is that the dominant black culture, which is embraced wholeheartedly by most blacks, who also mock and dislike the dominant white culture, is the main impetus behind black self-impoverishment.

Work hard. Take care of children you bring into this world. Value education. Respect women. Avoid excessive use of drugs. Protest unjust laws nonviolently.

Martin Luther King would be appalled at how far his people have fallen.

Once again. Do you have any original thoughts to contribute to the conversation, if we're still calling it that?

 

[tzznandrew]

This is the tail wagging the dog. This and Yale. This will all blow up. It will take some more time. But when it does, and Joe six pack is standing in a bread line, the tolerance given to these self-indulgent, delusional, faux-victims will be replaced by an irrepressible hostility, and all will revert to the mean.

Black people have mostly themselves to blame for where they have put themselves in modern America. Allowing themselves to believe that it's oppression by others, and not poor behavior on their part, is their main problem. The first step to improving the lot of black people in America would be for black people to take responsibility for their decisions. But that's where we're at. The white elephant in the room is that the dominant black culture, which is embraced wholeheartedly by most blacks, who also mock and dislike the dominant white culture, is the main impetus behind black self-impoverishment.

Work hard. Take care of children you bring into this world. Value education. Respect women. Avoid excessive use of drugs. Protest unjust laws nonviolently.

Martin Luther King would be appalled at how far his people have fallen.

Follow what you see on TV man, I guess. No offense, but this just reeks of someone who wants to ignore history, facts (again, when qualified black people apply for jobs they are called back less frequently than white felons! No one has a response to this!), but, most importantly, someone who has no lived experience around bona fide black people.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Are you saying you worked harder than the black students at Yale?

This is cherry picking. My comment was directed toward the dominant black culture and its severely detrimental effects. Successful black people in America generally are not proponents of the dominant black culture.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Once again. Do you have any original thoughts . . . .

What was your original input again? I thought you were squarely in the "not their fault, don't blame the victim camp."

 

[TasteofUConn]

Follow what you see on TV man, I guess.

In the last 5 years the only thing I've watched on "TV" is UConn bball and the occasional football game.

No offense, but this just reeks of someone who wants to ignore history, facts

It reeks of somebody who doesn't agree with your world view. I'd guess that it's very likely that you and I agree in large part on the history of blacks in America. What we disagree on is how much control they have over their own fate.

. . . again, when qualified black people apply for jobs they are called back less frequently than white felons! No one has a response to this!) . . .

I have a response to this. Post a link to the source material. It was a doctoral thesis, right? I assume that you read it, right? It would be intellectually irresponsible to present this as a scientific conclusion if all you did was read the CNN headline. You have a PhD student who wants to run an "experiment" to prove how horrible racism is in the U.S. She has confederates go to job interviews. How were they dressed? How was their hair cut? Did they intentional speak using ghetto phrasings? What does "equally qualified" mean? Were the resumes exactly the same? What was the felony drug conviction? Was it running a meth lab? Did the college students pretending to be menial labor applicants know what the point of the experiment was? Post the original study and I'll read it and we can discuss whether it was actual science or just a PhD student rigging a pseudo science farce to get to the headline she no doubt wanted when she started.

this just reeks of someone who has no lived experience around bona fide black people.

Not exactly sure what a black person has to do to get bona fide, but . . . I've interacted with many different types of people in many different roles, from co-workers at fast food joints and blue collar jobs to students in college, bosses, employees, friends, and homeless men.

Does that qualify me to have an opinion?

Your initial possession, which is dismissive, is that people who disagree with you simply don't understand the facts, or are ignoring them.

Do you think there is any chance that you and I agree, basically, on the facts, but we reach different conclusions?

 

[tzznandrew]

In the last 5 years the only thing I've watched on "TV" is UConn bball and the occasional football game.


It reeks of somebody who doesn't agree with your world view. I'd guess that it's very likely that you and I agree in large part on the history of blacks in America. What we disagree on is how much control they have over their own fate.


I have a response to this. Post a link to the source material. It was a doctoral thesis, right? I assume that you read it, right? It would be intellectually irresponsible to present this as a scientific conclusion if all you did was read the CNN headline. You have a PhD student who wants to run an "experiment" to prove how horrible racism is in the U.S. She has confederates go to job interviews. How were they dressed? How was their hair cut? Did they intentional speak using ghetto phrasings? What does "equally qualified" mean? Were the resumes exactly the same? What was the felony drug conviction? Was it running a meth lab? Did the college students pretending to be menial labor applicants know what the point of the experiment was? Post the original study and I'll read it and we can discuss whether it was actual science or just a PhD student rigging a pseudo science farce to get to the headline she no doubt wanted when she started.


Not exactly sure what a black person has to do to get bona fide, but . . . I've interacted with many different types of people in many different roles, from co-workers at fast food joints and blue collar jobs to students in college, bosses, employees, friends, and homeless men.

Does that qualify me to have an opinion?

Your initial possession, which is dismissive, is that people who disagree with you simply don't understand the facts, or are ignoring them.

Do you think there is any chance that you and I agree, basically, on the facts, but we reach different conclusions?

A couple things:

First, I don't mean to be dismissive, necessarily. But I find the whole idea that we white people can ignore the lived experiences of black people and merely tell them to "work harder" insultingly dismissive. When you have family that is black, you begin to see things you wouldn't otherwise as a white male.

What is dominant black culture? What is white culture? Those terms don't really make any sense to me.

Lastly, the study was not a dissertation. It was a peer reviewed scholarly article published in American Journal of Sociology that wanted to explore how criminal records affected job prospects. No surprise, they found that people with records were called back far less frequently, regardless of race. What surprised them was that black job seekers were routinely called back less frequently than white people with criminal records.

Read here is you want to read and criticize the methodology. I'd say, though, that going through the peer review process gives it a lot of credibility: http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/pager/files/pager_ajs.pdf