OT: I was wrong about Steph Curry

[EBonz30]

This has been my cold take for two years. Here are the reasonable conclusions you can draw from this year:

1. The GSW had a great team the last two years. Not a historically great team, nor a team that will be remembered with the likes of the 80s Lakers or Celtics or the Bulls, but in the 2nd eschelon after those teams.

2. GS was helped immensely last year by injuries to other teams. Even with that, they dropped two to the Cavs in the finals. A tip of the hat to LeBron and a foreshadowing.

3. Curry is an underrated shooter and an overrated player. Best ever at shooting, and it's not close, as some still believe. Not a top 20 player overall, career wise, and has a long way to go to get there, which he may not. I took a lot of abuse for my "flash in the pan" comment, but I stand by it. As of right now, two thirds of the way through the meat of his basketball career, he has had two very noteworthy seasons, and two forgettable post seasons and not much else. If his career ended tomorrow, you'd have a hard time saying anything beyond "had a great two years." Greatness in rarely earned over a short time (but see Big Ern getting thrown out and Maker's Muppet post), and in BB, it takes many years, not two quick ones. His window is narrow. In another 5 years he'll be on the rapid downslope for quickness, without which his game will suffer immensely.

4. Curry has not shown himself to be a big-game player. Is it the fact that Defenses can be more physical with him in the post season? Maybe. But it may also be that his loosey-goosey jack up the 3 from any old circus angle doesn't work as well when the pressure gets turned up. Sure, when you're running away with the best record and there's nothing much to lose by jacking 3s up from 5 feet beyond the arc, go to town - no pressure. The most damning stat that Curry posted yesterday was what? 1 trip to the line. 1? or was it 2? What great player ever got shut down like that at crunch time, and couldn't even get to the line to have an impact. None. That's why they're all time greats. Kobe may have put up 7 for 25 nights on occasion, but the dude would get 12 or 15 points from the line in doing so.

5. GS played a very weak Rockets team and a very weak Portland team in the early rounds. The two good teams they played - took them to 1-3 and - came back from 1-3. Curry did not play well in any of the losses. That is hugely telling.

6. There were many terrible calls over the series, but GS needed 2 really bad calls to keep the game close late. 1st, LBJ was called for a foul on a 3 point shot that was minimal to no contact in which the shooter jumped into him. A foul was then called on a Livingston jumper were the replay showed no contact at all. Those 5 points were part of an 8-0 GS run late which kept the game close. Refs blew calls in the other direction as well - Curry got called for a foul when a guy plowed into him - ridiculous. But if you're looking for a conspiracy theory, those 5 point made the game much tighter than it was at that point.

7. I don't see GS being better next year, unless they pick up the right piece, but it's unclear who that would be. Not sure Durant or anybody else being there makes them better. They need to use caution making changes. Too many chefs spoil the soup.

Curry is not a flash in the pan player...

Think your being too hard on him, their are multiple reasons why he didn't play well in the finals in which I am not going to get into right now...

He's not a top 20 player of all time either, maybe in future, but right now NO...

He's a wonderful player, a real treat to watch, we are so lucky to see a kid at 6 foot 3 and a buck nothing be so skilled and talented, have fans got carried away a little with his greatness yes, but it shouldn't be a reason for us to destroy him...

Def not a flash in the pan player, he's a wonderful player, top 3 in the league, he will make you eat your words, sooner or later, he's that damn good!!

 

[mauconnfan]

Curry is not a flash in the pan player...

Think your being too hard on him, their are multiple reasons why he didn't play well in the finals in which I am not going to get into right now...

He's not a top 20 player of all time either, maybe in future, but right now NO...

He's a wonderful player, a real treat to watch, we are so lucky to see a kid at 6 foot 3 and a buck nothing be so skilled and talented, have fans got carried away a little with his greatness yes, but it shouldn't be a reason for us to destroy him...

Def not a flash in the pan player, he's a wonderful player, top 3 in the league, he will make you eat your words, sooner or later, he's that damn good!!

Bingo

 

[D-NICE]

Curry is the greatest shooter in the regular season, not so in the finals, I have ever seen. Maybe his wife could stop blaming the media, and his young, daughter should stay out of the spotlight, like Lebron's fam.

 

[EBonz30]

Curry is the greatest shooter in the regular season, not so in the finals, I have ever seen. Maybe his wife could stop blaming the media, and his young, daughter should stay out of the spotlight, like Lebron's fam.

Not a good look, commenting on people's children and family members never a good look....

 

[auror]

Amazing you can make fun of our "hot takes" and somehow say these teams are better than most in NBA history.. Not only are they not, they aren't and weren't close. Throw all the crap stats and free agency super teams out there you want, from the Celts to the Lakers to the Pistons to the Bulls to the Spurs most recently as well as Lebron's Heat team, they aren't as good.

So say what you want about others hot takes but yours are more of the hilarious variety. I prefer not to say stupid because it's your opinion although just not a very good one at all.

It's not my opinion. It's what the realities are as demonstrated by the actual results on the courts represented by ELO rating. You dismiss reality by only believing in your own narratives. 4 of the teams this season were among the 30 best all-time teams.

Dismiss the stat if you want, but ELO was developed by chess players to track their relative standing among each other. If it passes mustard for chess grandmasters, I think it's fair to use to compare NBA teams across eras.

 

[auror]

I don't care about subjective awards like MVPs. He was MVP this year but we all saw LeBron is still the best and most valuable player in the MVP without a doubt here in this playoff series. I don't subscribe to media-driven narratives, nor do I care about hype. I care about reality.

The reality is Curry is a talented player, but no, given his talent he has not exceeded his potential. His potential is that of a guy who can come in and beat Oklahoma City without falling down 3-1 and his potential is that of a guy who up 3-1, can make plays and close out the series against Cleveland.

1) You're ascribing team things to 1 player.
2) Curry deserved MVP this year, and no, he was not as good as Lebron in the Finals. Both of those things can be true. 7-game sample size vs. 82. The value you give to MVP is up to you, but both the subjective value and all the statistical metrics deemed him the best player this regular season. That's not up for debate. He was better than LeBron during the season.

You are making the mistake too many people make... they fall in love with the long, beautiful 3-pointers and the highlight reel plays. You're ignoring all the little things Curry doesn't do that add up in the course of a basketball game. He's capable of doing these things, he certainly has the talent, but he's not doing them.

This is a joke, right? His team is one of the best offensive teams of all time, not just because of his scoring and shooting, but because of the space he creates, the rotations he forces, the mismatches he abuses, the passes he makes, his decisiveness with the ball, and other little things like leading the league in steals and creating semi-transition opportunities out of defensive cross-matches. These are all things that apparently you can't see, but you accuse me of not seeing the little things because Curry had 3 games with high turnovers and presumably not making "winning plays", despite his team winning more games than any other team in a single season.

 

[EBonz30]

1) You're ascribing team things to 1 player.
2) Curry deserved MVP this year, and no, he was not as good as Lebron in the Finals. Both of those things can be true. 7-game sample size vs. 82. The value you give to MVP is up to you, but both the subjective value and all the statistical metrics deemed him the best player this regular season. That's not up for debate. He was better than LeBron during the season.



This is a joke, right? His team is one of the best offensive teams of all time, not just because of his scoring and shooting, but because of the space he creates, the rotations he forces, the mismatches he abuses, the passes he makes, his decisiveness with the ball, and other little things like leading the league in steals and creating semi-transition opportunities out of defensive cross-matches. These are all things that apparently you can't see, but you accuse me of not seeing the little things because Curry had 3 games with high turnovers and presumably not making "winning plays", despite his team winning more games than any other team in a single season.

Why argue about all this sillyness, stupid, obviously Curry was the MVP and James was the finals MVP and is currently the best player on the planet, not even sure what the argument is here, just silly.

Everyone stop trying take shots at Curry, we all who know he is and what he isn't, let him prove over time how good he is....

 

[TasteofUConn]

Curry deserved MVP this year

He definitely was the best offensive player. Most valuable to his team winning? I'd disagree.

all the statistical metrics deemed him the best player this regular season. That's not up for debate.

Sure it's up for debate. "ALL" the statistical measures do not support your conclusion. Curry is not a great defensive player, and, as it turned out, LeBron's defense is what won the series.He gave up the clinching 3 pointer. LeBron blocked a crucial layup. Curry was far and away the best offensive player this year. That's all.

His team is one of the best offensive teams of all time . . .

Maybe the best.

 

[CallMeBruce]

It's not my opinion. It's what the realities are as demonstrated by the actual results on the courts represented by ELO rating. You dismiss reality by only believing in your own narratives. 4 of the teams this season were among the 30 best all-time teams.

Dismiss the stat if you want, but ELO was developed by chess players to track their relative standing among each other. If it passes mustard for chess grandmasters, I think it's fair to use to compare NBA teams across eras.

This guy.

 

[Excalibur]

The "authors" of ELO for the NBA admit its recency bias.

 

[auror]

This guy.

Lol even as I typed it I was like "It's mustard right, I know there's an eggcorn of this phrase."

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

1) You're ascribing team things to 1 player.
2) Curry deserved MVP this year, and no, he was not as good as Lebron in the Finals. Both of those things can be true. 7-game sample size vs. 82. The value you give to MVP is up to you, but both the subjective value and all the statistical metrics deemed him the best player this regular season. That's not up for debate. He was better than LeBron during the season.


This is a joke, right? His team is one of the best offensive teams of all time, not just because of his scoring and shooting, but because of the space he creates, the rotations he forces, the mismatches he abuses, the passes he makes, his decisiveness with the ball, and other little things like leading the league in steals and creating semi-transition opportunities out of defensive cross-matches. These are all things that apparently you can't see, but you accuse me of not seeing the little things because Curry had 3 games with high turnovers and presumably not making "winning plays", despite his team winning more games than any other team in a single season.

True but those guys also create space for him. Draymond and Klay specifically. Curry plays on the perfect team in the perfect system with the perfect teammates for His game. He certainly makes them better. But they make him better too. Did you see his stats without Draymond this year? People will say well curry makes the system. He certainly plays a large part. But the team runs pretty smoothly without him also. See Barbosa and Livingston in game 1 etc. gs made a lot of runs with him on the bench this postseason.

Curry doesn't necessarily make golden st the way guys he has been compared to (sometimes favorably as ridiculous as it was) like mj Kobe lebron etc. those guys were the system. Curry is just a part in his. There's a big difference.

Honestly if you put damien lillard on golden st, are they much different? I honestly don't think So.

Curry is a great player and a ridiculous shooter but he has been massively overrated as an all around basketball player. He got outplayed pretty handily for the majority of two straight 7 game series by the opposing teams point guard. He was the best player on his own team like once or twice maybe in those 14 games. He's great but not close to the level of mj Kobe lebron etc. and people need to stop saying he is.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Kobe was not the system when LA was awesome, Shaq was. Kobe is a glorified Scottie Pippen.

 

[mauconnfan]

Kobe was not the system when LA was awesome, Shaq was. Kobe is a glorified Scottie Pippen.

Kobe won twice w/o Shaq on teams that were deep and talented but not great. He may not be Lebron, but he's as close as it gets.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Kobe won twice w/o Shaq on teams that were deep and talented but not great. He may not be Lebron, but he's as close as it gets.

And he was second on both of those teams in win shares to Gasol. It was just hard to tell because Gasol wasn't shooting on 30% of possessions.

 

[EBonz30]

Kobe was not the system when LA was awesome, Shaq was. Kobe is a glorified Scottie Pippen.

Kobe is an all time great, I have him in the top 15 of all time and possibly top 10, better player than Pippen.

Top 6 greatest player I've ever seen, 30 years old.

Jordan
LeBron
Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem

I didn't see Magic and Bird in their prime.

 

[mauconnfan]

And he was second on both of those teams in win shares to Gasol. It was just hard to tell because Gasol wasn't shooting on 30% of possessions.

I get that but it was Kobe's team not Gasol's. Gasol was a good solid player but not great or at least one of the greatest, Kobe is one of the Top 10-15 greats without a doubt. And again, not a fan of Kobe so no skin in this game.

 

[Excalibur]

I just don't see how the best of all time list doesn't start with:

1) Jordan
2) LeBron

Everyone after that is up for discussion. You could round out the top 10 with any of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Oscar, Duncan, Bird, Kobe, Hakeem, Shaq, West, Moses, and Elgin Baylor.

 

[IMind]

I get that but it was Kobe's team not Gasol's. Gasol was a good solid player but not great or at least one of the greatest, Kobe is one of the Top 10-15 greats without a doubt. And again, not a fan of Kobe so no skin in this game.

I hate to say it but you're right. Kobe's playoff numbers especially are awsome. Part of it comes from his position... I think you can argue that there are any number of great shooting guards who played on crappy teams that could have done the same thing in the same situation... Mitch Richmond comes to mind.... but the fact is that they didn't.

I'd throw Iverson in there too. I know a lot of people aren't huge fans but what he did basically by himself in Philly is incredible. Go look at that roster... George Lynch and Aaron McKie? Holy Christ.

My main issue with Kobe is that he gave himself his own nickname...

 

[intlzncster]

I'd throw Iverson in there too. I know a lot of people aren't huge fans but what he did basically by himself in Philly is incredible. Go look at that roster... George Lynch and Aaron McKie? Holy Christ.

For me, one of the most impressive playoff runs in history. When the likes of Eric Snow was critical to your run, damn. Iverson was soooooooo good.

My main issue with Kobe is that he gave himself his own nickname...

He gave himself the nickname The Black Mamba? Dang, another thing he did right. That's the best nickname in the game, just such a perfect fit for that guy.

 

[superjohn]

I get that but it was Kobe's team not Gasol's. Gasol was a good solid player but not great or at least one of the greatest, Kobe is one of the Top 10-15 greats without a doubt. And again, not a fan of Kobe so no skin in this game.

Gasol is a Hall of Famer.

 

[superjohn]

Kobe was not the system when LA was awesome, Shaq was. Kobe is a glorified Scottie Pippen.

Kobe and Pippen couldn't be further apart. Kobe is one of the greatest scorers of all-time, Pippen was a mediocre scorer who was a jack of all trades lock down defender.

 

[mauconnfan]

Gasol is a Hall of Famer.

Is he really? Guess I missed that never impressed me as a great big, would've been eaten alive by the bigs of the past, way too soft. But he was solid.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Kobe and Pippen couldn't be further apart. Kobe is one of the greatest scorers of all-time, Pippen was a mediocre scorer who was a jack of all trades lock down defender.

My point is they both won a lot of titles as the second-most important guy on a team.

 

[TasteofUConn]

Kobe and Pippen couldn't be further apart. Kobe is one of the greatest scorers of all-time, Pippen was a mediocre scorer . . .

Pippen is 16th on the all time leading playoff scorer list. And that's with playing along side a guy who sits at #1.
In his prime he was a 20 point a game scorer on a team where he didn't need to be a top option.
He sits at 58th on the all time scoring list, higher than other "mediocre" scorers like Bob McAdoo, Mark Aguire, Tracy McGrady, and James Worthy.