OT: How Bad Are the Giants?

[JohnFSilver]

No bargains in the Giants' basement.

When in business, Filene's Basement had some good bargains for their clothes.

For any who remember the place.

Schoen should be fired.

 

[navery12]

looked at sportsrac contract. The giants don't pay anyone on offense except Thomas and Jones.

How do eagles, 49ers, cowboys, and chiefs pay all these players, but giants couldn't afford Barkley.

look at the contracts on offense. Jones, Thomas, and then nothing but bargain basement or rookie contracts. What did they expect?

Because those teams load up on contracts where the future cap hits are enormous and it's worth it to win and hopefully compete for Super Bowls. Could the Giants have done that for Barkley by restructuring Thomas's and Lawrence's contracts? Sure. But that's bad business when the upside is 4 wins versus 2 wins. Keeping cap flexibility for 2025 and 2026 is more valuable

 

[Scoe]

Niners looked pretty damn good without Mcaffrey, an undrafted rb with 147 yards rushing like I said the Niners were already a Super Bowl contender without him, of course they're a top 2 team with Mccaffrey.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Because those teams load up on contracts where the future cap hits are enormous and it's worth it to win and hopefully compete for Super Bowls. Could the Giants have done that for Barkley by restructuring Thomas's and Lawrence's contracts? Sure. But that's bad business when the upside is 4 wins versus 2 wins. Keeping cap flexibility for 2025 and 2026 is more valuable

Then why field any team?
just trade Thomas and Lawrence. Trade Nabers while value is high.

The goal is to win games. Mara has the right attitude imo in thinking of other stakeholders. This a marketing disaster by giants.

giants are not putting their best possible team on the field. Inexcusable.

just insane management with roster construction and cap management treated like it is a video game.

I get 80% of Barkley production at 30% the cost. Brilliant!

morons.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Niners looked pretty damn good without Mcaffrey, an undrafted rb with 147 yards rushing like I said the Niners were already a Super Bowl contender without him, of course they're a top 2 team with Mccaffrey.

giants should trade for him.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Niners looked pretty damn good without Mcaffrey, an undrafted rb with 147 yards rushing like I said the Niners were already a Super Bowl contender without him, of course they're a top 2 team with Mccaffrey.

is mason better than any rb on giants. Or would any rb do what mason did.

 

[navery12]

Then why field any team?
just trade Thomas and Lawrence. Trade Nabers while value is high.

The goal is to win games. Mara has the right attitude imo in thinking of other stakeholders. This a marketing disaster by giants.

giants are not putting their best possible team on the field. Inexcusable.

just insane management with roster construction and cap management treated like it is a video game.

I get 80% of Barkley production at 30% the cost. Brilliant!

morons.

You seem unable to grasp basic football knowledge at this point so I'm not gonna bother responding after this.

You keep Lawrence and Thomas and Nabers because they're foundational pieces who will still be in their prime when the Giants are ready to win with their next QB. Barkley would not be

Your 80% production for 30% of the cost comment shows just how out of touch you are. Because that would be great value for the Giants and is exactly what they're hoping for

 

[JohnFSilver]

You seem unable to grasp basic football knowledge at this point so I'm not gonna bother responding after this.

You keep Lawrence and Thomas and Nabers because they're foundational pieces who will still be in their prime when the Giants are ready to win with their next QB. Barkley would not be

Your 80% production for 30% of the cost comment shows just how out of touch you are. Because that would be great value for the Giants and is exactly what they're hoping for

Careful with that. I know exactly what they are doing from roster building and football and then also analyzing it as a business process as well. I am just being a bit sarcastic.

What I am pointing out is there is a chance to leverage the group think.

What GMs should reach for is try and find a market differentiator. In the past, that was a really cheap and productive running back.

But now, everyone is doing that, the running back position so devalued that there is a value opportunity in going against consensus.

Where is the edge now?

RB is commoditized. I think there is an opportunity, at that price, to get premium production and game impact at a fraction of the cost of what it would happen at another position .

The way Barkley, and the elite running backs effect the game compared to what you would have to pay a WR or DE to have that impact…if you can acquire talent at that cost then you do it.

The holy grail is elite production like Barkley in a rookie contract.

Now, would I take a rb top 5? No. Just too much risk there.

But In business and in life:

Quality > Value

The question is, what’s the delta? How much premium will the quality cost? I think RBs have hit bottom.

I want the highest quality at the least cost I can get. Do not settle for lesser quality and commoditize a position where you can have a game wrecker.

If giants felt that Barkley wasn’t that any more. Then sure. If they felt they have a guy who can do that? Sure.

But they don’t have that guy. Now, what they are left with is replacement level dime a dozen commoditized back.

This is why MBAs screw up businesses. It’s why CEO’s get paid so much.

Vision > system.

Lastly: Schoen would say, at a unit level, I got great value out of RB, TE, WR (rookie contracts) and OL ( runyan, rotten, Elu).

My issue is I am not getting value out of my QB and that is why our outputs are not producing despite tremendous value plays.

So, they go get Kirk Cousins next year and will they go to Super Bowl? Of course not.

You see the problem? They are actually farther away from contending than when he took over. Not only do they have less talent, they have expensive non-producers and cheap value plays.

All because he keeps on searching for value.

 

[Deepster]

Niners looked pretty damn good without Mcaffrey, an undrafted rb with 147 yards rushing like I said the Niners were already a Super Bowl contender without him, of course they're a top 2 team with Mccaffrey.

If they're smart, CMC is rested until he's 100% no matter how long that takes and when he comes back? He's in some type of 60/40 or 65/35 type share to make sure he's good for the SB run. No reason to lean on him with 25-30 touches a game.

 

[JohnFSilver]

You seem unable to grasp basic football knowledge at this point so I'm not gonna bother responding after this.

You keep Lawrence and Thomas and Nabers because they're foundational pieces who will still be in their prime when the Giants are ready to win with their next QB. Barkley would not be

Your 80% production for 30% of the cost comment shows just how out of touch you are. Because that would be great value for the Giants and is exactly what they're hoping for

I am your manager. Good job finding value.

What’s your plan to bridge the other 20% of production?

 

[navery12]

I am your manager. Good job finding value.

What’s your plan to bridge the other 20% of production?

Bringing in Greg Van Roten, Jermaine Eluemunor, and Jon Runyan Jr with the saved money to give Drew Lock time to throw the ball down field to the improved receiving core

 

[JohnFSilver]

Bringing in Greg Van Roten, Jermaine Eluemunor, and Jon Runyan Jr with the saved money to give Drew Lock time to throw the ball down field to the improved receiving core

And how is that working out for you?

Lol.

I like you, Navery. I'm just busting balls now.

the answer is what Schoen said in Hard Knocks. That is what our $40m qb is for.

You lose production. You have to make it up at:

1. Another position - QB/WR/TE
2. Coaching
3. Player development
4. Scouting

Dynasty Patriots won by having an elite QB. They then found a differentiator at the TE position and went to the replacement level at WR and RB they also found a differentiator in the slot.

They were innovative.

On defense, they relied on belichick defensive coaching and scheming as differnetiator. Genius.

Giants have little talent on the field on offense, and are they differentiators in coaching, scout, or player developmen?

Hate to ruin everyones day.

 

[navery12]

And how is that working out for you?

Lol.

I like you, Navery. I'm just busting balls now.

the answer is what Schoen said in Hard Knocks. That is what our $40m qb is for.

You lose production. You have to make it up at:

1. Another position - QB/WR/TE
2. Coaching
3. Player development
4. Scouting

Dynasty Patriots won by having an elite QB. They then found a differentiator at the TE position and went to the replacement level at WR and RB they also found a differentiator in the slot.

They were innovative.

On defense, they relied on belichick defensive coaching and scheming as differnetiator. Genius.

Giants have little talent on the field on offense, and are they differentiators in coaching, scout, or player developmen?

Hate to ruin everyones day.

The offensive line looked much better and the receivers were getting open, so I think pretty well. But until they have a real QB nothing matters so it's gonna be a long season

 

[NJHusky]

And how is that working out for you?

Lol.

I like you, Navery. I'm just busting balls now.

the answer is what Schoen said in Hard Knocks. That is what our $40m qb is for.

You lose production. You have to make it up at:

1. Another position - QB/WR/TE
2. Coaching
3. Player development
4. Scouting

Dynasty Patriots won by having an elite QB. They then found a differentiator at the TE position and went to the replacement level at WR and RB they also found a differentiator in the slot.

They were innovative.

On defense, they relied on belichick defensive coaching and scheming as differnetiator. Genius.

Giants have little talent on the field on offense, and are they differentiators in coaching, scout, or player developmen?

Hate to ruin everyones day.

The bloom is off Daboll’s rose imo. He fires wink, now he blames Kafka/takes playcalling. He’s running out of folks to blame.

He left Buffalo and Allen hasn’t skipped a beat….maybe it was Allen all along and had nothing to do with Daboll

No matter what happens, I don’t see Mara firing Schoen/Daboll this season…he wouldn’t admit to making yet another terrible hire.

 

[Husky25]

As he gets older, I don't think Barkley wanted to play for the Giants any longer. It seemed that whatever the Giants offered, he wanted more. I think he wants a chance at some hardware while he still has some tread on his cleats.

As an outsider, I have the benefit of not looking through Big Blue colored glasses and I have posted it in numerous threads that he was a business decision for the Maras, but a poor selection (on par for Gettleman) for Giants' fans. As dynamic as he is and as many jerseys as the Maras were able to sell, runningback is a plug & play/cherry-on-top position. He may have been worth a #2 pick for some team, but the Giants had more important holes to fill then and have the same issues now.

Commanders fans have more reason for optimism than the Giants.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

The bloom is off Daboll’s rose imo. He fires wink, now he blames Kafka/takes playcalling. He’s running out of folks to blame.

He left Buffalo and Allen hasn’t skipped a beat….maybe it was Allen all along and had nothing to do with Daboll

No matter what happens, I don’t see Mara firing Schoen/Daboll this season…he wouldn’t admit to making yet another terrible hire.

It was 2nd and 5 and we did 2 straight DJ QB sneaks…That tells you all about Daboll’s chops as a play caller.

 

[NJHusky]

It was 2nd and 5 and we did 2 straight DJ QB sneaks…That tells you all about Daboll’s chops as a play caller.

And then punted!! The bravado he had in year 1 is gone. Guys coaching for their jobs rarely do a good job…they play not to lose rather than playing to win

 

[NJHusky]

As he gets older, I don't think Barkley wanted to play for the Giants any longer. It seemed that whatever the Giants offered, he wanted more. I think he wants a chance at some hardware while he still has some tread on his cleats.

As an outsider, I have the benefit of not looking through Big Blue colored glasses and I have posted it in numerous threads that he was a business decision for the Maras, but a poor selection (on par for Gettleman) for Giants' fans. As dynamic as he is and as many jerseys as the Maras were able to sell, runningback is a plug & play/cherry-on-top position. He may have been worth a #2 pick for some team, but the Giants had more important holes to fill then and have the same issues now.

Commanders fans have more reason for optimism than the Giants.

If the Giants wanted to keep him they could have franchised him again. The RB number is not that big.

 

[Deepster]

As he gets older, I don't think Barkley wanted to play for the Giants any longer. It seemed that whatever the Giants offered, he wanted more. I think he wants a chance at some hardware while he still has some tread on his cleats.

He's 27. He's fast approaching that age where an NFL RB hits 100,000 on the odometer. It's clear the Giants aren't going anywhere. Good for him to get a shot at some playoffs and a run while he still has some juice.

 

[JohnFSilver]

QB didn't look good enough.

 

[navery12]

It was 2nd and 5 and we did 2 straight DJ QB sneaks…That tells you all about Daboll’s chops as a play caller.

It's wearing off quick, but I'm not completely out on Daboll yet. I think he just doesn't trust Daniel Jones enough to call anything beyond the simplest plays

 

[CardiacAndre7]

It's wearing off quick, but I'm not completely out on Daboll yet. I think he just doesn't trust Daniel Jones enough to call anything beyond the simplest plays

Fair, but if there is one thing he is somewhat competent at, it is throwing the ball 3 yards down the field. Do that rather than expecting him to find some space through the line.

 

[NJHusky]

I think eye test said they were better. I blane jones for some sacks. Also, play calling too. Jones just doesn’t look as explosive as he did earlier in career with his legs, and is just not accurate enough or have a strong enough arm.

From the NY Post

Left tackle Andrew Thomas had the best pass-blocking grade in the league, assigned by Pro Football Focus, and his overall grade of 76.6 was far better than left guard Jon Runyan Jr. (59.0), center John Michael Schmitz (52.2), right guard Greg Van Roten (46.6) and right tackle Jermaine Eluemunor (64.9).

“The offensive line was awful,’’ Baldinger said. “They were just awful. Runyan was bad, Van Roten was bad, Eluemunor was OK, Andrew Thomas was solid, but as a group they were bad so they couldn’t really run it.’’

 

[The Viking]

First drive of the game (or maybe second?) jones dropped back and had several 4-5 second moments to find receivers and couldn't. The guy locks on and I think panics, maybe because he's broken or torn every bone/tendon in his body who knows.
But bottom line you saw what happened when tyrod Taylor got action last year. The offense definitely looked better.
This is Daniel's last year and then he is cut. So we have that going for us.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Pats fan, but are Giants fans really worried about Barkley? He wouldn't win them any more games this season. A better OL might. QB could. Nabers will probably be really good someday, but I think they should have taken McCarthy. There are loads of WR in the draft and star WRs don't win championships any more than RBs do. Hell, star TEs are a better predictor of success.

Winning 101: 1. control the line of scrimmage 2. don't turn the ball over 3. be able to capitalize on opportunities to score/short fields 4. move the chains and win the field position battle. 5. explosive plays. Too many fans think #5 is #1.