OT: Heartbroken for UCF

[mauconnfan]

Seth Greenberg did a nice job showing the 2 fouls on the FT Zion missed circling them both. Ref can't ignore one or the other. 15 hooked his guy so he couldn't get to the rebound and as soon as the UCF guy went to jump for the ball on the other Barrett 2 handed pushed him under the basket, just incredible BS. Problem though is they let that stuff happen too much during every gamer as it is. But in that case can't swallow that thing, especially after the Zion charge. And if you are going to make that call then be consistent and make the call on Trey Jones riding him OOB's on the other end as he beat him off the dribble.

 

[Dogdeacon]

My point is when you focus on the box out you set your feet and lower your CG to withstand a push in the back. You go for the ball and out all your momentum going up towards the rim and that same push in the back gets you what happened today.

I forget all the new rule changes but if Dawkins could have called a TO before Zion's FT I would gave used the last TO at that point. Settle your players down and focus on first things first.

Partially right on the box out, but also your head has to be on a swivel and the FIRST thing you do is look at your man and make contact, typically put your forearm in his chest. UCF was ball watching, the guy who got hooked at least set himself better, the guy who lost the rebound:
1. Didn't initiate contact with the man he was supposed to box out
2. Ball watched
3. Set up too low and too upright
Boxing out isn't a wide stance under the rim - it is physically moving your man away from the rim FIRST and then going to get the ball. If both UCF guys initiate the contact in the split second while the shot is released then they are about to be the aggressors, can get away with some extra contact (like Duke did instead) and are not susceptible to getting hog tied or pushed under the hoop.

 

[BlueDogs]

Partially right on the box out, but also your head has to be on a swivel and the FIRST thing you do is look at your man and make contact, typically put your forearm in his chest. UCF was ball watching, the guy who got hooked at least set himself better, the guy who lost the rebound:
1. Didn't initiate contact with the man he was supposed to box out
2. Ball watched
3. Set up too low and too upright
Boxing out isn't a wide stance under the rim - it is physically moving your man away from the rim FIRST and then going to get the ball. If both UCF guys initiate the contact in the split second while the shot is released then they are about to be the aggressors, can get away with some extra contact (like Duke did instead) and are not susceptible to getting hog tied or pushed under the hoop.

True. All true. But he did get shoved in the back. There is no question and the ref missed a very basic call.

 

[Hi-Low]

Hat's off to UCF.......small consolation but they played what will become an iconic NCAA game. The should have won but the ball does funny things sometimes as we all know. Not going Duke conspiracy they were just luckier than UCF.

 

[mauconnfan]

True. All true. But he did get shoved in the back. There is no question and the ref missed a very basic call.

Problem is if you box a guy out if he's allowed to lean on you in any way it doesn't matter if you boxed out perfectly, he can move you. Pretty simple to see it here, the UCF kid wasn't trying to jump under the basket to get the rebound, he was shoved. And #15 for Duke put his arm over the other UCF guy which may have been worst, again Greenberg pointed that out on ESPN this morning. He's usually a K guy so him pointing out those 2 fouls is all you need to know.

 

[Jay-Bone]

Partially right on the box out, but also your head has to be on a swivel and the FIRST thing you do is look at your man and make contact, typically put your forearm in his chest. UCF was ball watching, the guy who got hooked at least set himself better, the guy who lost the rebound:
1. Didn't initiate contact with the man he was supposed to box out
2. Ball watched
3. Set up too low and too upright
Boxing out isn't a wide stance under the rim - it is physically moving your man away from the rim FIRST and then going to get the ball. If both UCF guys initiate the contact in the split second while the shot is released then they are about to be the aggressors, can get away with some extra contact (like Duke did instead) and are not susceptible to getting hog tied or pushed under the hoop.

I hate to beat a dead horse on this but my final thoughts:

1. Dawkins did get low and positioned in front of RJ. You can see his knees bent. What he didn't do, as I'll agree, is back into RJ enough. Neither did he spread his arms and angle RJ away from the center either. He got excited and thought ball first.
2. Watch Dawkin's back arched and reaching back over his head for the ball as he leaps. That is signs of a ample enough force behind him in his lower back. Dawkins left his feet and in the air was easier to propel forward. In that condition a small push is more detrimental. Without the push he gets a hand on the ball. Dawkins was 2' forward and under the hoop when RJ touched the ball. Completely unable to recoop and defend.
3. You're allowed to nudge from behind without extending the arms. RJ's forearms were extended more than anything closely allowed. RJ is not a dominant forceful pf that will win that ball all the time.
4. There's a reason why the defensive team almost always pulls down a free throw rebound that isn't a brick. RJ did not go around him nor out maneuver him.
5. Then there's the hook that I think without the guy definitely gets his left arm extended up and tips the ball. Hooks happen, but full clamps the extent of the action should not be close to tolerated. A tip from either one is all that was needed. Neither were even close.

Was it text book boxing out? No. Is it odd that the two offensive players were closest to the ball? Yes. Was that a coincidence? No. Duke does sneaky little stuff like that that they know won't get called in a big situation.

But its water under the bridge now. Duke moves on and I can't do anything but laugh when a reporter asks RJ if that is the best play he's made in his life. Boy did RJ bail out Zion with that push.

Dawkins had the game of his life but at the same time had two plays that he didn't do everything right and cost the game. I feel bad for him and hope the NBA calls make up for it.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Problem is if you box a guy out if he's allowed to lean on you in any way it doesn't matter if you boxed out perfectly, he can move you. Pretty simple to see it here, the UCF kid wasn't trying to jump under the basket to get the rebound, he was shoved. And #15 for Duke put his arm over the other UCF guy which may have been worst, again Greenberg pointed that out on ESPN this morning. He's usually a K guy so him pointing out those 2 fouls is all you need to know.

First of all you can never blame the refs (but you can always bitch about them, W or L).
And I just think UCF has greater culpability because they boxed out the space (and one of them too close to hoop) rather than boxing out their man. You ALWAYS have that moment the shot is in the air to make aggressive contact, its the one moment in a basketball game where you are allowed contact and can often get away with overly aggressive contact.
And every small school & underdog knows (remember how long it took our Huskies to break thru the Big East juggernauts) you essentially need to 'win the game' multiple times to beat to the favorite.

 

[superjohn]

First of all you can never blame the refs (but you can always bitch about them, W or L).
And I just think UCF has greater culpability because they boxed out the space (and one of them too close to hoop) rather than boxing out their man. You ALWAYS have that moment the shot is in the air to make aggressive contact, its the one moment in a basketball game where you are allowed contact and can often get away with overly aggressive contact.
And every small school & underdog knows (remember how long it took our Huskies to break thru the Big East juggernauts) you essentially need to 'win the game' multiple times to beat to the favorite.

You can never blame the refs...
Watch "phantom foul" on YouTube

 

[Dogdeacon]

You can never blame the refs...
Watch "phantom foul" on YouTube

Saw that when it happened, was a big deal even at the time - but in a basketball game everyone makes mistakes, players, refs, coaches - got to play well enough to overcome all of it.

 

[mauconnfan]

First of all you can never blame the refs (but you can always bitch about them, W or L).
And I just think UCF has greater culpability because they boxed out the space (and one of them too close to hoop) rather than boxing out their man. You ALWAYS have that moment the shot is in the air to make aggressive contact, its the one moment in a basketball game where you are allowed contact and can often get away with overly aggressive contact.
And every small school & underdog knows (remember how long it took our Huskies to break thru the Big East juggernauts) you essentially need to 'win the game' multiple times to beat to the favorite.

We will agree to disagree. I've boxed out people who were stronger and taller over my career and won some and lost some depending on what was allowed, I get that part. But after you get that chance to aggressively box out you still need to jump to go get the ball if no one else is getting it so if you jump 3 feet forward to under the hoop that's not on the fact you weren't boxing out correctly or aggressively it's on the fact the guy behind you times the 2 hand push who you were most vulnerable. It was a foul and I'm not blaming anyone I'm just pointing out a fact, they missed it.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I think we all agree that we would be reacting different if Duke was not invovled. The fact that Duke gets these calls to go their way time every single time is the issue...

 

[superjohn]

Saw that when it happened, was a big deal even at the time - but in a basketball game everyone makes mistakes, players, refs, coaches - got to play well enough to overcome all of it.

Well there was no overcoming that, Michigan was given 2 ft's to win the national championship on a foul that never occured.

 

[intlzncster]

Saw that when it happened, was a big deal even at the time - but in a basketball game everyone makes mistakes, players, refs, coaches - got to play well enough to overcome all of it.

If the refs blow a last second call, you don't really have the opportunity to overcome it.

So if you play another team to a stalemate, and the ref robs you, that's on you for not playing well enough? You've got to play the other team, AND the refs, just in case.

 

[B1GEast]

I don't know if Dawkins had a time out, but after the bucket that put UCF by three late in the game, before Taco fouled out, if UCF had a time out, that would have been a good time to use it.

There was no situational awareness by Taco or the UCF team. Up by three with seconds to go and maybe you want to foul a poor free throw shooter.

UCF had a clear look at the put back and the ball just rattled out. It happens, it's March Madness. UCF had their chances to win this game, it had nothing to do with a foul called or not called

 

[Dogdeacon]

If the refs blow a last second call, you don't really have the opportunity to overcome it.

So if you play another team to a stalemate, and the ref robs you, that's on you for not playing well enough? You've got to play the other team, AND the refs, just in case.

Yeah, that 1% of the time you can get jobbed or rewarded - but you will also have a few opportunities to make sure it doesn't come down to the refs at the end.
There is certainly a list of major sporting events affected and changed by refereeing and it is incredibly egregious when it occurs (this one mildly, exacerbated only because its Dook, but mitigated b/c UCF still got 2 good shots to win).
I think the Lakers playoff win over Sacto in 2002 and the 2001 Bucks & Ray's eastern finals loss to Iverson are the two of the worst NBA examples. College the Rumeal game I think stands out as the very worst although I'm sure there are a few others that weren't in the actual final game but still in final moment of an NCAA game.

Unrelated Duke cheating story, university just agreed to a 112M settlement for falsifying research to secure a 200M grant:
The case also contends that the university and its office of research support, upon discovering the fraud, knowingly concealed it from the government. According to court documents, Duke was accused of submitting claims to the National Institute of Health (NIH) and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) between 2006-2018 that contained "false or fabricated data" cause the two agencies to pay out grant funds they "otherwise would not have."
The whistleblower that used to work for Dook gets 1/3!!
Subscription required
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangl...fdzgKlDe3DK1g0eefd177&t=1553543073&j=87433471

 

[Palatine]

Let's face it. That is and will be UCF's fate. Same with Cinny. Thta's what they are there for.

 

[intlzncster]

Yeah, that 1% of the time you can get jobbed or rewarded - but you will also have a few opportunities to make sure it doesn't come down to the refs at the end.
There is certainly a list of major sporting events affected and changed by refereeing and it is incredibly egregious when it occurs (this one mildly, exacerbated only because its Dook, but mitigated b/c UCF still got 2 good shots to win).

With games like basketball, it's one of those things that you don't mind refs being up and down (to a degree) during the game, because that's life, but at the end, you HAVE to get it right. That's why we see the addition of replay. I only expect it to be expanded (it's kind of annoying irt actually, but I'd rather have the right call made).

However, I wholly disagree with the bold part. Mildly exacerbated??? Majorly, utterly, wholly, are better terms here with respect to Duke. It is slightly mitigated because of UCF's chances.

Unrelated Duke cheating story, university just agreed to a 112M settlement for falsifying research to secure a 200M grant:
The case also contends that the university and its office of research support, upon discovering the fraud, knowingly concealed it from the government. According to court documents, Duke was accused of submitting claims to the National Institute of Health (NIH) and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) between 2006-2018 that contained "false or fabricated data" cause the two agencies to pay out grant funds they "otherwise would not have."
The whistleblower that used to work for Dook gets 1/3!!
Subscription required
https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2019/03/25/duke-agrees-to-pay-112-5-million-to-settle.html?ana=e_ae_set1&s=article_du&ed=2019-03-25&u=IG/kNPuKEfdzgKlDe3DK1g0eefd177&t=1553543073&j=87433471

Classic Duke. Basketball program acts the same way.

 

[ASweet3781]

Let's face it. That is and will be UCF's fate. Same with Cinny. Thta's what they are there for.

How can you possibly say that? Cincinnati has blown leads and lost to teams they should have beaten numerous times. They had a path to the the Final 4 last year (Loyola's region) and they blew a 22 point lead to Nevada!

Everyone thought UCF was going to get blown out vs Duke. UCF earned more respect for this league with that performance yesterday than Cincinnati has ever done.

 

[Palatine]

How can you possibly say that? Cincinnati has blown leads and lost to teams they should have beaten numerous times. They had a path to the the Final 4 last year (Loyola's region) and they blew a 22 point lead to Nevada!

Everyone thought UCF was going to get blown out vs Duke. UCF earned more respect for this league with that performance yesterday than Cincinnati has ever done.

True. But you just knew. Duke wins and UCF falls short. It's like gravity.

 

[noeynox]

Late to the party, but my 2 cents:

We've had our hearts broken in tournament. They had a nice team, you have a special program when you're the team breaking Duke's fans hearts in the tournament. Soooo...fluck UCF.