OT: Geno

[babysheep]

Just seems more like actual revenge than just sour grapes

 

[zls44]

Funny how people will think what Frank Ivy wrote was ignorant but will just gloss over a statement like this which, in my opinion, is way more ignorant. My father had an 8th grade education and grew up on a farm in a country devastated by World War II. They were so poor after the war that, when their well ran dry, he had to dig a new well, by himself, with HAND TOOLS. To ZLS, how about that hole and that shovel! He came to this country with no money and unable to speak the language AT ALL. He lived with his uncle in Bridgeport who worked at a low paying blue collar job. He slept in his cousin's room which was available because his cousin was serving in the Navy. He learned the language and worked in construction and in a machine shop. His son attended MIT and got a graduate degree in engineering. Tell me where the 400 year head start occured in this scenario. By the way, we belong to an ethnic group that STILL has not seen one of its own win the presidency and was, not long ago, relegated to the ghettos as new immigrants. By not long ago, I mean way less than 100 years.

If you really dont think that a white immigrant in the fifties had a leg up on every African-American alive, then I dont know what to tell you.

I think the real problem us that youre implying this woman didn't work just as hard to get her job. You dont know that.

But you seem more than ready to assume that.

I wonder why that is.

 

[TRest]

Funny how people will think what Frank Ivy wrote was ignorant but will just gloss over a statement like this which, in my opinion, is way more ignorant. My father had an 8th grade education and grew up on a farm in a country devastated by World War II. They were so poor after the war that, when their well ran dry, he had to dig a new well, by himself, with HAND TOOLS. To ZLS, how about that hole and that shovel! He came to this country with no money and unable to speak the language AT ALL. He lived with his uncle in Bridgeport who worked at a low paying blue collar job. He slept in his cousin's room which was available because his cousin was serving in the Navy. He learned the language and worked in construction and in a machine shop. His son attended MIT and got a graduate degree in engineering. Tell me where the 400 year head start occured in this scenario. By the way, we belong to an ethnic group that STILL has not seen one of its own win the presidency and was, not long ago, relegated to the ghettos as new immigrants. By not long ago, I mean way less than 100 years.

You attended MIT?

 

[arnie3]

You attended MIT?

I was thinking the same thing, but would have added: if so what are you doing on this board?

 

[TRest]

It's not the heart that is the source of the problems in these situations.

I was trying to be diplomatic to all involved.

 

[DoctorBombay]

What anybody should do is take advantage of the opportunities that are available, and not blame others for their failure to succeed.
So affirmative action has been around for about 40 years. Right?

How has the black community done in that time?

Illegitimacy rate today among blacks is about 7 in 10 births, or about three times what it was before AA.
A recent analysis of black males showed that only 47% graduate high school.
Nationwide, the highest state rate of "reading at 8th grade level" in 8th grade for black males was 15%. Note that these are kids who were born in the late 90s. Meaning that 30 or more years of affirmative action preceded their testing.

There are many other stats, almost all of them bad.

Affirmative Action and the welfare state have failed. Period. The two have conspired to create an entitlement and blame mentality that has resulted in black economic aspirations in this country being driven head first into the toilet.

Your affirmative action has failed. 40 years of applying leeches has accomplished a demolition of the black communities. If you want 360 more years of welfare and affirmative action - both of which stand for the insidious notion that black people can't make it without whitey's help notwithstanding a level playing field - to get to 400 even years, then you're dooming the black communities in this country even more than they are now.

Frank...it's very telling that you chose to ignore the "400 Year head-start", and focused only on the "stop whining and catch up" part. The problem with those of your mindset is that they simply refuse to acknowledge and accept the vital role that HISTORY plays in this country. You act as if 40 years of legislated Affirmative Action, is somehow equivalent to 400 years of systematic, entrenched, not to mention violent racial discrimination. AA has only been around for a few generations, yet you expect quantum leaps and results equivalent to 400 years of the opposite...immediately...with no hiccups? Seriously?
There is NO DOUBT that things are better for Blacks and other minorities. But the myopic and xenophobic perspective that you & your ilk bring to the discussion, is both morally & intellectually weak.
You choose to focus on recent history (40 years) yet totally dismiss the prior 360 years, as if its just a footnote & not an integral part of the discussion. That's silly, simplistic, and frankly, just lazy.
Its so much simpler to sit on the side and rail against "those people" and why they "can't get their together"....with all its implied prejudices and assumptions.
As a wise man once said:
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance, and conscientious stupidity". -MLK-
I rest my case.

 

[CL82]

Funny how people will think what Frank Ivy wrote was ignorant but will just gloss over a statement like this which, in my opinion, is way more ignorant. My father had an 8th grade education and grew up on a farm in a country devastated by World War II. They were so poor after the war that, when their well ran dry, he had to dig a new well, by himself, with HAND TOOLS. To ZLS, how about that hole and that shovel! He came to this country with no money and unable to speak the language AT ALL. He lived with his uncle in Bridgeport who worked at a low paying blue collar job. He slept in his cousin's room which was available because his cousin was serving in the Navy. He learned the language and worked in construction and in a machine shop. His son attended MIT and got a graduate degree in engineering. Tell me where the 400 year head start occured in this scenario. By the way, we belong to an ethnic group that STILL has not seen one of its own win the presidency and was, not long ago, relegated to the ghettos as new immigrants. By not long ago, I mean way less than 100 years.

I enjoyed reading this story. A lot of what has made this country great over the years can be found within it.

As to the AA debate, take it to the Cesspool and have at. Frank makes some decent points he just chooses to obscure them with needlessly inflamatory retoric.

 

[Frank Ivy]

Frank...it's very telling that you chose to ignore the "400 Year head-start"

In fact I didn't. It was more a question of not writing an essay.

A poor black man and a poor Italian immigrant walk in for a job in 1955. The problem the black guy has is not the previous 400 years. The problem he has is that his skin is black and most white people in that day were racists. He's as qualified (if not more) than the Italian who doesn't speak English. The problem is that the boss doesn't want to hire a black guy.

The problem that I have with your logic, and those who present your argument, is that you say things like 400 year head start, but you don't say exactly what that means in terms of the here and now.

If two men walk in for a job in 2012 and they're the same candidate except for skin color, all that is going to affect the choice is racism. Not history.

So the 400 number is thrown around as if to imply that we need a few hundred more years of affirmative action racism to make it all equal.

But that argument suggests something that isn't true - that the Italian immigrant somehow has some sort of accrued benefit that the black man doesn't. Nonsense. He has only his skin color.

The solution to that is to pass laws that make it illegal to hire based on race. Those laws exist.

So what's left? The notion that "400 years" of slavery have caused some sort of what? Economic divide? Nah. There are many more poor white people in America than poor black people. That can't be it. Then what?

Culture? Ahah! Is that what you're suggesting? That 400 years of slavery have created a lasting cultural impact that causes black failure?

But, if that's the case, then 40 years of AA have not solved the problem. In fact, black culture since 1950 has taken a tremendously destructive turn for the worse.

So what exactly is your argument? How, exactly, have 400 years of slavery led to the horrific condition of blacks in this country? And, given that the first 40 years of AA have been a miserable failure, why is it that you expect another 40 years to produce a different result?

I love MLK - a true intellectual giant in American history. But I'll offer a quote from another ethnic minority for you - "to do the same thing repeatedly and expect a different result is the definition of stupidity."

Ultimately, I believe welfare and AA are incredibly destructive. The information we have from the last 40 years surely supports that.

 

[Huskymaniac]

I was thinking the same thing, but would have added: if so what are you doing on this board?

Slumming....

 

[Huskymaniac]

If you really dont think that a white immigrant in the fifties had a leg up on every African-American alive, then I dont know what to tell you.

I think the real problem us that youre implying this woman didn't work just as hard to get her job. You dont know that.

But you seem more than ready to assume that.

I wonder why that is.

Where did I imply that? I said that claiming I, or my father, had a 400 year head start is a load of crap. You are correct that a black male in 1950 had a tougher time than a poor white immigrant and especially in the south. But would you say that a poor white immigrant male who didn't speak the language and had an 8th grade education in 1950 had it easier than a black male in 2010? If you believe that then I don't know what to tell you. The fact that many black males are successful in OUR generation proves it is possible. The fact that many more are still struggling tells me that a lot of progressive policies have actually been detrimental. So many policies and so many programs that started out as great ideas were distorted into monstrocities that have actually hurt the people they intended to help. I think one could argue that a black kid growing up in Harlem in 1950 had it better in many ways than a black kid growing up there today. Clearly some issues were overcome in the past 60-70 years but new issues popped up. It is arguable but I believe MLK would be very upset at the damage the black community allowed white liberal politicians to do to them and the civil rights movement. Just curious, what do think of Bill Cosby and some of his statements to the black community in recent years? I think the man is very wise.

 

[babysheep]

So what's left? The notion that "400 years" of slavery have caused some sort of what? Economic divide? Nah. There are many more poor white people in America than poor black people. That can't be it. Then what?

Culture? Ahah! Is that what you're suggesting? That 400 years of slavery have created a lasting cultural impact that causes black failure?

But, if that's the case, then 40 years of AA have not solved the problem. In fact, black culture since 1950 has taken a tremendously destructive turn for the worse.

So what exactly is your argument? How, exactly, have 400 years of slavery led to the horrific condition of blacks in this country? And, given that the first 40 years of AA have been a miserable failure, why is it that you expect another 40 years to produce a different result?

Read: war on drugs, ghetto-ization of Northern cities.

Government uses AA to look like they care about minorities but purposely do nothing about the above, which ends up allowing them to perpetually keep the poor behind the more well-off classes. As big a problem America still has with racism, it is no longer a politically viable way to control people, so now they use a kind of class-ism. How do you think black people found themselves in those lower classes?

 

[Kitaman]

Ugh Hmm, where does Geno fit in with all of this?

Classic railroaded thread.

 

[aceboon]

tough to tell whether this place is the boneyard or stormfront sometimes, probably why I find myself coming here less and less each day.

 

[Frank Ivy]

Government uses AA to look like they care about minorities but purposely do nothing about the above,

I'm not sure the concept of "government" can be parlayed into a self-perpetuating entity that has it out for minorities. As far as I can tell, governments are coming apart at the seams in Europe and the U.S. because they can't balance a check book; it's difficult for me to see how governments could conspire on such a broad issue.

I believe that racism in particular, and xenophobia in general, is a very unfortunate part of being human. It's extremely difficult for any individual to overcome the natural tendency to hate that which is different, be it race, religion, and so on.
I don't see the battle as you seem to, with historical effects perpetuating to today.
I see it as a battle against ugly human nature. People have hated others forever, transcending culture, society, and time.

That is, I suppose, our difference. I don't think you can ever eliminate or even substantially curtail racism with govt. programs. You may believe differently.

Trayvon Martin is a good example. If you polled black people and white people on that issue, you'd get wildly different results. The only explanation is racisim - blacks will tend to support TM and whites (hispanics) will tend to support the shooter. That's regardless of the facts. That's why OJ walked. You can't change that with laws or cultural change.

So I don't view this is a historical problem that can be "fixed" with time and cultural change. I view it as a biological problem that can't be fixed but that can be reduced in the severity of its effect through law. Mainly laws that insist on equality under the law.

 

[Walker11]

I don't understand why the word affirmative action was ever brought up. From my understanding (based off reading one article) the lady is a lawyer and a former NYPD narcotics officer and was hired to work in security. Not exactly lacking in credentials...

I don't find any racism in pointing out flaws with AA but do with immediately assuming AA was the reason behind a hiring.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

How long before she pulls the race card.....

Way to make assumptions about people based on the color of their skin and pre-emptively accuse others of racism. Class act.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

Pointing out the flaws in affirmative action is not racist.

No, but using the term "angry black woman syndrome" is racist as hell.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

If two men walk in for a job in 2012 and they're the same candidate except for skin color, all that is going to affect the choice is racism. Not history.

The problem is that you don't understand the connection between our history and our cultural racism. It's a systemic problem. It's the same reason black people are pulled over more for the same crimes, searched more often, convicted more frequently. It's the same reason death penalty cases are more likely when a white victim is involved.

These are enormous, systemic problems that aren't solved by having a black President or just saying, "Hey, it's already illegal to not hire based on race, what's the problem here?"

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

I think one could argue that a black kid growing up in Harlem in 1950 had it better in many ways than a black kid growing up there today.

And today's winner for "Comment clearly made by someone not growing up in Harlem in the 50's" is... YOU! Congrats!

 

[Joobie]

My big problem with this story is that the "security expert" waited 3 years to come forward with a complaint. REALLY??? That's what made all of my BS alarms go off!

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

I have no problem with people thinking she's full of . A lot of human beings are. But when we start throwing around terms like gold digger or accusing people of playing a race card when we don't know anything, we're just being pricks, period. There's gotta be a middle ground.

 

[Deepster]

I can't decide what I care about less.

1) The allegations of the UConn womens basketball coach sexually harrassing someone or
2) Uconn womens basketball

 

[Huskymaniac]

And today's winner for "Comment clearly made by someone not growing up in Harlem in the 50's" is... YOU! Congrats!

Don't hurt yourself getting up on that pedestal Mr. self-righteous. How's that self-loathing working out for you? Apparently not well. The reason why people were anticipating the race card being used is not just because she is black. It is because she set a precedent and trend by using the gender card and the sexual harassment card. The race card was the next logical step. Now, if it were common knowledge that she were a lesbian then maybe people would also be expecting her to pull the sexuality card too. You see, she has established a trend of pulling cards like these and displaying reason to question her credibility. So nice try on your part to pull the racism card.

Did you grow up in Harlem in the 50s? If not, how do you know what it was like? Ever talk to anyone that was in Harlem in the 50s? I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster, what's your opinion of Bill Cosby and his very publicly stated opinions on this subject?

 

[DoctorBombay]

In fact I didn't. It was more a question of not writing an essay.

A poor black man and a poor Italian immigrant walk in for a job in 1955. The problem the black guy has is not the previous 400 years. The problem he has is that his skin is black and most white people in that day were racists. He's as qualified (if not more) than the Italian who doesn't speak English. The problem is that the boss doesn't want to hire a black guy.

The problem that I have with your logic, and those who present your argument, is that you say things like 400 year head start, but you don't say exactly what that means in terms of the here and now.

If two men walk in for a job in 2012 and they're the same candidate except for skin color, all that is going to affect the choice is racism. Not history.

So the 400 number is thrown around as if to imply that we need a few hundred more years of affirmative action racism to make it all equal.

But that argument suggests something that isn't true - that the Italian immigrant somehow has some sort of accrued benefit that the black man doesn't. Nonsense. He has only his skin color.

The solution to that is to pass laws that make it illegal to hire based on race. Those laws exist.

So what's left? The notion that "400 years" of slavery have caused some sort of what? Economic divide? Nah. There are many more poor white people in America than poor black people. That can't be it. Then what?

Culture? Ahah! Is that what you're suggesting? That 400 years of slavery have created a lasting cultural impact that causes black failure?

But, if that's the case, then 40 years of AA have not solved the problem. In fact, black culture since 1950 has taken a tremendously destructive turn for the worse.

So what exactly is your argument? How, exactly, have 400 years of slavery led to the horrific condition of blacks in this country? And, given that the first 40 years of AA have been a miserable failure, why is it that you expect another 40 years to produce a different result?

I love MLK - a true intellectual giant in American history. But I'll offer a quote from another ethnic minority for you - "to do the same thing repeatedly and expect a different result is the definition of stupidity."

Ultimately, I believe welfare and AA are incredibly destructive. The information we have from the last 40 years surely supports that.

Wow.
I have no intention of perpetuating this debate much further, this is (was?) after all a thread about HCGA .
The amount of wishful thinking reflected in your post speaks volumes. To suggest that because now there's legislation to counter racism, and somehow that SHOULD be sufficient is once again, a very simplistic approach to a complex problem. Not to mention the why/how there was ever a NEED for such laws, and what the human cost was to finally have them enacted.
Its like seeing a homeless person and telling them to "get a job", without having any clue as to why/how they ended up where they are. I have a friend who looks at want-ads & wonders why "those people" can't find work. His conclusion is the simplistic one...they must be "lazy". Right, all neat & wrapped in a bow.
If the world was as uncomplicated as you seem to think it is, we would all be in a much better place. Unfortunately, that is simply not the case. There's alot of gray in the black and white prism that you seem to have enacted for yourself.
Peace.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Ugh Hmm, where does Geno fit in with all of this?

Classic railroaded thread.

Sorry for my part in this. But sometimes you just have to respond, lest some ridiculousness goes unchallenged.