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Ot - Ex Penn State Defensive Coord Charged

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vtcwbuff said:
"Not being a witness that was likely the end of Joe's responsibility."

That may or may not have been the end of Paterno's legal responsibility but for me that's meaningless. What about his responsibility as a human being?
Whatever specifics he knew, it is obvious that he knew that something unacceptable was going on between one of his coaches and a child. For him to do nothing more than pass it up the chain is unconscionable.
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Again, you and I have no knowledge of what was or was not pursued nor how. We have only the most superficial level of present media reports. Joe and McQueary both have said that McQueary did not address the situation as the a sexual assault because McQueary couldn't speak about it because he was so upset. Joe saying he passed it on to Curley doesn't mean he never asked another question or anything else or received answers that it was in the hands of authorities or whoever. We simply don't know. What Joe has suggested is simply patience. No denial or excuses. Patience. There will be plenty of time for condemnations later if necessary.

It is easy to assert that others should have done this or that but we don't live in their circumstances with their background. McQueary was 22 or so at the time and came upon an idol of PSU football doing something he couldn't imagine. The level to which this disturbed him is evident in his immediate call to his dad and contacting Joe the next morning still unable to put details to word. All we can say is that the state AG says that Joe and McQueary did exactly what was required. The clarity of hind sight makes it clear it was insufficient to halt someone who appears to have had the whole world fooled.

Ray Gricar was DA at the time of both the 1998 and 2002 incidents. LINK http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/former_centre_county_da_ray_g.html

Both AD Curley and VP Schultz have now resigned.

Probably time to consider locking this as unfruitful and off topic as the season is upon us.
Or send it to the OT Board.
 
One last thing to note in PA's law is that while it mandates reporting by a variety of persons it makes no provision for training. Sadly, many required reporters recive no training. Fortunately, as pastors we receive training and foremost is if in doubt call your local Youth and Family Services agency. They will know the law.
 
Icebear said:
It is easy to assert that others should have done this or that but we don't live in their circumstances with their background. McQueary was 22 or so at the time and came upon an idol of PSU football doing something he couldn't imagine. The level to which this disturbed him is evident in his immediate call to his dad and contacting Joe the next morning still unable to put details to word. All we can say is that the state AG says that Joe and McQueary did exactly what was required.
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According to the Grand Jury report, McQueary was 28 at the time, old enough to know he witnessed the rape of a child. He was disturbed enough to call his father and Paterno, but not enough to call the police. No one called the police. What would it have taken to get the police involved? I don't understand. There are some things that fall outside the realm of a chain of command and this is clearly one of them.
 
You're right Cat, what I calculated was his age at the time of the 1998 incident which did not involve him, not 2002 which did. Many, many dates to keep straight.

I am sorry but no one can say anything about what they would do until they are in that position and therefore what someone should do. I am presently counseling a guy in the local prison who is accused of child sexual abuse but the entanglement of divorce, step children, and numerous secondary events makes the accusations questionable but none the less the accused has been in jail for 5-6 months. Fact is McQueary did exactly what he was required to do and has cooperated with authorities whenever they asked him for information. Now he is able to express with a clarity he apparently could not express at the time what he saw. This is not unusual.

Thing that is easy to agree about is that Sandusky seems to have been caught in the act and admitted to actions highly questionable SEVERAL times, 1998, 2000, 2002, 200? People who do such things in a predatory manner are truly despicable.
 
Icebear said:
Fact is McQueary did exactly what he was required to do and has cooperated with authorities whenever they asked him for information. Now he is able to express with a clarity he apparently could not express at the time what he saw. This is not unusual.
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According to the Grand Jury report (p. 7), McQueary expressed to Curley and Shultz exactly what he witnessed in the shower. The GJ didn't find a lack of clarity in that communication; indeed, that communication forms the basis for its perjury charges. Cooperating with authorities when one is a witness to a crime is not voluntary; it's a legal obligation. What's at issue here is more than what's required under the law, however. This is about a moral responsibility we owe each other as human beings. Many people involved in this mess fell short in that responsibility.
 
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Icebear said:
Amen. Protecting their "reputation" organizationally motivates them to simply continue the perpetuation of the abuse of power upon the victims.
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Agreed. This case sickens me, that Joe and others didn't go directly to the police, even the campus police.
 
Why are some seeming to be apologists or even making excuses for the goings on with people associated with Penn State. Sure as fans of a particular school its natural to give the benefit of the doubt and want to back the school and the actions of those associated with that school, but I'm sorry in this instance they don't deserve it.

Go ahead and believe that its a coincidence or McQueary was fully and the best qualified to get the coaching position he received. I don't. Also go ahead and believe that McQueary didn't give enough details of what was going on that those in power should have notified appropriate State officials. I don't. Why would they deny Sandusky access to Penn State facilities if they didn't know what was going on. Explain that after the length of time Sandusky was associated with the program and I'm sure was a great recruiting asset. There had to have been a serious reason why to suddenly deny access and now it seems we know the reason. This was a coverup and now its seen the light of day.

I do have a question about what Joe Pa should have done after he notified school officials. IMHO he is getting the benefit of the doubt because he's a school and State Icon and they don't want his accomplishments tarnished. However, as someone who prides himself on the builder of men, he should have done much more then what he did. I don't believe he didn't have idea of what was actually going on.
 
Icebear said:
Fact is McQueary did exactly what he was required to do and has cooperated with authorities whenever they asked him for information. Now he is able to express with a clarity he apparently could not express at the time what he saw. This is not unusual.
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Sorry, but one can be legally in the right but still in the moral wrong. I would not be able to sleep if I knew a pedophile was being allowed to continue having contact with young children without any consequences. Even if the manager were emotionally distressed by seeing the abuse, and I can easily imagine that could be the case, you would think after a few months went by and the predator was still appearing on campus with young boys that the manager - or anyone that knew of the previous rape - would call the cops.

I can't fathom why you're putting up any manner of defense of the people at PSU, ice. The actions, or rather inaction, of the people there are indefensible.
 
cardfan said:
Agreed. This case sickens me, that Joe and others didn't go directly to the police, even the campus police.
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They did not do so because it was not in the interests of PS Football, the heck with raped child or others in the future...meanwhile, the ever vigilant NCAA sleuths keep an eye out for illegal payment for student athlete breakfasts.

Watch for adults involved to wrap themselves in the blanket of technical legalities, chain of command, and lack of knowledge. Be interesting to see if Diogenes’ Lantern finds an honest face here.
 
UConnCat said:
According to the Grand Jury report (p. 7), McQueary expressed to Curley and Shultz exactly what he witnessed in the shower. The GJ didn't find a lack of clarity in that communication; indeed, that communication forms the basis for its perjury charges. Cooperating with authorities when one is a witness to a crime is not voluntary; it's a legal obligation. What's at issue here is more than what's required under the law, however. This is about a moral responsibility we owe each other as human beings. Many people involved in this mess fell short in that responsibility.
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I was referring in his talk with Joe. The other meeting with Curley and Schultz was ten days later a significant difference emotionally. McQueary backed Joe's version but not Curley and Schultz.

Neither you nor I know anything about McQueary's background. Whether he was a victim of abuse or anything else. It is easy to stand in judgment without knowing more. His cooperation with police is required by law and he has done nothing to shirk it anywhere along the way. The same apparently cannot be said for Curley and Schultz.
 
Couple of Opinions

Wash Post - Link

Blog - Link

While I also think Joe P should resign, he won't as it would be construed as an admission of guilt.

BTW, I also believed he should have resigned a number of years ago and is only hanging on to increase his legacy with the number of wins he's credited with. Does anyone really believe he's the head coach and responsible for the day to day running and coaching the Penn State Football team?

Like many other coaches, rock stars, athletes and others they don't know when time has passed them by and they need the limelight to feel important.
 
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HuskyNan said:
Sorry, but one can be legally in the right but still in the moral wrong. I would not be able to sleep if I knew a pedophile was being allowed to continue having contact with young children without any consequences. Even if the manager were emotionally distressed by seeing the abuse, and I can easily imagine that could be the case, you would think after a few months went by and the predator was still appearing on campus with young boys that the manager - or anyone that knew of the previous rape - would call the cops.

I can't fathom why you're putting up any manner of defense of the people at PSU, ice. The actions, or rather inaction, of the people there are indefensible.
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I am not making any moral defense of those involved. I am saying people are rushing to conclusions about people the AG has said have been fully cooperative and will provide testimony in trials. We know nothing of the circumstances except that the AG says they did exactly what they should have done. It is also easy for us to look back knowing everything but which individuals knew which parts of the picture is very different when living forward. All that is indicated is that Joe knew of the one instance involving McQueary and his one experience. I spoke with a lawyer friend in PA last night and he affirmed what I suggested yesterday that individuals may have been caught between conflicting laws.

Morally, we know nothing of the circumstances and history of people's lives by which to have a context for judging anything. I make no apology for anyone, especially, Curley and Schultz who are charged. I simply suggest that Joe's advice is correct, be patient and let things play out.

If one knew that McQueary was abused as a child how does that affect one's opinion of his reaction. What other circumstances could significantly bear on one's present urge to judge.

You were worried because you thought I was judging Seimone a couple of months ago which I wasn't I was speaking strictly of the realities of the psychology of body art, specifically, full body art. In the same way now I am only cautioning a concern of rushing to moral judgment because we just don't know. Remember that prosecutors do not give all their ammo to Grad Juries, just enough to get the indictment. Once there are charges and defendents such things change. Maybe prosecutors know things about actions by Joe and McQueary they don't want shared yet.

What about the janitor who apparently saw a similar circumstance in 2000 and apparently reported it to no one at the time.
 
Wbbfan1 said:
Couple of Opinions
While I also think Joe P should resign, he won't as it would be construed as an admission of guilt.

BTW, I also believed he should have resigned a number of years ago and is only hanging on to increase his legacy with the number of wins he's credited with. Does anyone really believe he's the head coach and responsible for the day to day running and coaching the Penn State Football team?

Like many other coaches, rock stars, athletes and others they don't know when time has passed them by and they need the limelight to feel important.
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If one watches games it is clear Joe is not running the team.

I, too, think Joe should have retired a couple of years ago. On the other hand PSU is now 8-1 with only a loss to Alabama. Mystery.
 
Aluminny69 said:
I don't know if the law required Paterno to contact the police, but not doing so doesn't seem praise-worthy in any way - the crime was despicable and needed reporting to put an end to Sandusky's activity. JP reported it to his supervisor but was TOTALLY aware that nothing was being done. He was part of the coverup. He just didn't lie to the grand jury like the other two guys did.
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I would recommend watching the video of the powerful statement by the PA State Police Commissioner at today's press conference. He spoke about a "culture" that did nothing to stop the behavior. He said that he's never been associated with a case where there were so many eye witnesses of acts with children without the police being called. He also said there no heroes in this story other than the investigators. http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/authorities-say-innocence-lost-at-penn-state-14898056

BTW, one of the questions asked of the AG was about Sandusky bringing a young boy to a PSU football practice in 2007 and whether Paterno and McQueary witnessed their presence and whether that could lead to potential charges against them. She declined to say anything other than the investigation is ongoing.
 
UConnCat said:
I would recommend watching the video of the powerful statement by the PA State Police Commissioner at today's press conference. He spoke about a "culture" that did nothing to stop the behavior. He said that he's never been associated with a case where there were so many eye witnesses of acts with children without the police being called. He also said there no heroes in this story other than the investigators. http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/authorities-say-innocence-lost-at-penn-state-14898056

BTW, one of the questions asked of the AG was about Sandusky bringing a young boy to a PSU football practice in 2007 and whether Paterno and McQueary witnessed their presence and whether that could lead to potential charges against them. She declined to say anything other than the investigation is ongoing.
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I agree with all of that first paragraph. I think that was evident in the Rene Portland situation and in the Sandusky situation. It is an attitude of don't do anything that will upset the alumni. As I said just let the information finish coming out. Nothing is gained in haste. I have no problem holding JoePA and McQueary accountable I just don't think that anything is gained by blind rage and rush to judgment.

Remember there is testimony that is was DA Ray Gricar who refused to prosecute the 1998 situation. This was given by a retired State Cop.
 
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UConnCat said:
Exactly the point made by Mike Wise of the Washington post in his column:

"Paterno wasn’t charged, but if Sandusky is guilty he would be guilty — just as Penn State’s athletic director and a university vice president, who were charged with perjury and failure to report suspected child abuse on Saturday, would be guilty.

They would all be party to a worse crime than any crooked, pay-for-play booster at Miami, Ohio State or even SMU ever committed: guilty of protecting a program before a child.

You can’t read the 23-page grand jury report and come to any other conclusion; Penn State football and its pristine reputation apparently superseded the alleged sexual assault of a young boy — perhaps as many as eight young boys — over 15 years by Sandusky.

Joe Pa knew, if the charges are true.

They all knew.

And they never told police."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...erve/2011/11/05/gIQAYIucqM_story.html?hpid=z1
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sickening.
 
I expect that Penn State's negligence will result in the same sort of litigation that has befallen the Catholic church. I get uplifted every time I read articles in my home town newspaper about the church trying to sell off some of their prime properties to pay for and judgements and out of court settlements.

Paterno reminds me of all the bishops that chose to look the other way or to treat child molestation as an internal matter instead of a criminal one.
 
and more from the NYT

quote from Joe:

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky (my bold). As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators.

“He (Paterno) reported what he knew and he had reason to expect that others would do their jobs,” said Nicholas P. Cafardi, who is dean emeritus and professor of law at Duquesne University School of Law and an expert on the Roman Catholic Church’s sexual abuse scandal. “I don’t know if he knew no action was taken after he reported it, but if he did, and if he believed the story he heard was credible, he had a moral obligation to do something more — to report it to civil officials.

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Joe just taking this to his administrators rather than the police or civil authorities is inexplicable.
 
Here's another opinion piece linked to the espn site where this is the lead story:
http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/...ue-did-penn-state-coach-joe-paterno-know-when

"If Paterno knew something and did nothing, he's an accessory. If he didn't know, he should have known. Such are the burdens of omniscience as understood by the cult of the Division I football coach.

If true, what did Joe know, and when did he know it?

The failure here is complete. Utter. The failure of the institution and the failure of the individual. The failure of the community. The failure of common decency.

If true? Your failure. My failure. We didn't keep our children safe.

What did Joe know, and when did Joe know it?

The truth is a horror story. If true"
 
Guru on the Rene Portland tie-in

"Those who followed the Portland controversy at the time, in light of the current Sandusky allegations, have privately mused over the irony, if true, that some university officials involved in Portland’s ouster, motivated to either bring about justice or potential retribution against her, had themselves years earlier taken action to protect Sandusky."
 
I find the two situations of Portland and Sandusky very similar in the institutional response to them. In both cases the institution did everything it could to ignore both until an outsider Harris and the mother of the child in Clinton County forced the situation into the light. Portland was not ousted until the university was forced to deal with the situation by the Harris law suit and involvement of the NCLR, not because they wanted to do so.
 
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From ESPN's latest article:

"State police commissioner Frank Noonan said, as far as state police can tell, Paterno fulfilled his legal requirement to report.

"But somebody has to question about what I would consider the moral requirements for a human being that knows of sexual things that are taking place with a child," Noonan said. "I think you have the moral responsibility, anyone. Not whether you're a football coach or a university president or the guy sweeping the building. I think you have a moral responsibility to call us.""
 
damn all those laws, frick wait and be patient.... if you ran up on a dirty old man thrusting a naked 10 yr you should be on the HIGHEST mountain yelling so that everyone can hear what you just witnessed.

If you passed it on you show do some follow up, 'hey Coach I see the child molester is still around, whats up with that".

and ok we dont know what the student-assistant has been thru but he did have sense enough to pass it along to Coach, maybe Coach should have climbed that mountain.
 
These vile acts will end up being Paterno's legacy. He may not be charged criminally but he most likely will be sued for damages. What about the kids, Joe? What were you thinking? Sad. Very sad.
 
DaddyChoc said:
damn all those laws, frick wait and be patient.... if you ran up on a dirty old man thrusting a naked 10 yr you should be on the HIGHEST mountain yelling so that everyone can hear what you just witnessed.

If you passed it on you show do some follow up, 'hey Coach I see the child molester is still around, whats up with that".

and ok we dont know what the student-assistant has been thru but he did have sense enough to pass it along to Coach, maybe Coach should have climbed that mountain.
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I thought the same thing DC. The GA who witnessed the rape in 2002 was then a 28 year-old-man. I would hope that most men in that situation would do everything in their power to stop what was happening, grab that young boy in their arms to protect him and then call the police.

Here's what the mother of one of the victims had to say:

"I don’t even have words to talk about the betrayal that I feel,” said the mom of Victim Six. “[McQueary] was a grown man, and he saw a boy being sodomized ... He ran and called his daddy?”
 
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