Ot - Ex Penn State Defensive Coord Charged

[UConnCat]

In PA reports prosecutors seem to be praising JoePA and McQueary for their actions and cooperation.

Paterno has been receiving less praise from sportswriter and other columnists around the country who are questioning his inaction. Obviously feeling the heat, Paterno has just released this statement in which he asks people to "be fair":

"If true, the nature and amount of charges made are very shocking to me and all Penn Staters. While I did what I was supposed to with the one charge brought to my attention, like anyone else involved I can't help but be deeply saddened these matters are alleged to have occurred.

"Sue and I have devoted our lives to helping young people reach their potential. The fact that someone we thought we knew might have harmed young people to this extent is deeply troubling. If this is true we were all fooled, along with scores of professionals trained in such things, and we grieve for the victims and their families. They are in our prayers.

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators.

"I understand that people are upset and angry, but let's be fair and let the legal process unfold. In the meantime I would ask all Penn Staters to continue to trust in what that name represents, continue to pursue their lives every day with high ideals and not let these events shake their beliefs nor who they are."

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/joe_paterno_issues_statement_a.html

 

[pap49cba]

What a mess......

 

[pap49cba]

Too little, too late....

"Penn State says it is barring from campus a former football coach accused of sexually assaulting eight boys, and it also is paying legal costs for two school officials charged with perjury and failing to alert police about what they knew in the case."

LINK

 

[vtcwbuff]

According to this reporter Paterno has to bear some of the responsibility. I don't know what the law is in PA or what's required to be reported by whom, but if Paterno knew what he is alleged to have known and if he pursued it no further than he did, than shame on him.

From the Fox sports report by Greg Couch -
“As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower. He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky.’’
The assistant fled in fear and confusion. Much the same way a janitor fled after allegedly witnessing Sandusky engaged in a sexual act in the showers with a “young boy” — Victim 8, later described in the report as being “between the ages of 11 and 13.”

Shame on the grad assistant for not beating the crap out of Sandusky on the spot and then screaming to the police, the media and anyone else that would listen. While Paterno alleges that the graduate assistant didn't tell him specifically what was going on, shame on him for not pursuing it beyond passing the buck Paterno needs to go - now.

 

[Icebear]

The school probably has little option but to pay for staff's defense because it was being under their employment that created the mandatory reporting requirement unlike me who as a pastor has it by definition of ordination.

As this now plays out there are many legal policies that must be played out. Remember Joe was not a witness to the event, McQueary was. McQueary reported to Joe and Joe promptly reported it to his administrator. The administrator then interviewed McQeary ten days later. Ten days? Not being a witness that was likely the end of Joe's responsibility. No one is required to report hearsay to Children's Services. Consider the chaos that would create.

The 1998 situation died with the DA so clearly all the appropriate steps had been taken. Blame if there is any lies with the DA or with the lack of reliable testimony and usable evidence. Steps were taken to separate Sandusky. Sufficient, not in hind sight but legally maybe what the school, not Joe agreed to for reasons not clear. Maybe because there was no prosecution. Remember a person raising the issue is potentially opening themselves to counter suit. Once the DA dropped it what else is there to be done. 18 months after the original complaint it would be expunged from Sandusky's record providing no intervening complaints.

Should anyone like any of this, not in the least but the are a variety of legal protections involved. All of our anger is appropriate but as Joe noted it is a process. Let it work and let the information emerge.

BTW, the original charges against Sandusky were withdrawn on Friday and are to be modified and resubmitted Monday.

 

[Icebear]

From what I've seen so far, he deserves anything but praise. He passed on info to a higher-up and then never again inquired when no legal action was forthcoming. Which led to more years of horrible abuse.

What would have happened back in 2002 if Paterno had gone directly to the police when a few weeks went by and it was apparent that nothing was being done?

None of us knows that to be true or not? There is no evidence I know of indicating that he did or didn't make further inquiries. It is the state AG who is supporting Joe's actions and McQueary's as apparently did the Grand Jury. I would trust they know more than any of us.

Joe's simple statement is correct in that we must allow things to be played out legally.

 

[vtcwbuff]

"Not being a witness that was likely the end of Joe's responsibility."

That may or may not have been the end of Paterno's legal responsibility but for me that's meaningless. What about his responsibility as a human being?
Whatever specifics he knew, it is obvious that he knew that something unacceptable was going on between one of his coaches and a child. For him to do nothing more than pass it up the chain is unconscionable.

 

[UConnCat]

The 1998 situation died with the DA so clearly all the appropriate steps had been taken. Blame if there is any lies with the DA or with the lack of reliable testimony and usable evidence.

The DA at the time disappeared in 2005 and hasn't been seen or heard from since. His laptop without the hard drive was subsequently found in the Susquehanna River.

 

[speedoo]

Paterno has been receiving less praise from sportswriter and other columnists around the country who are questioning his inaction. Obviously feeling the heat, Paterno has just released this statement in which he asks people to "be fair":

"If true, the nature and amount of charges made are very shocking to me and all Penn Staters. While I did what I was supposed to with the one charge brought to my attention, like anyone else involved I can't help but be deeply saddened these matters are alleged to have occurred.

"Sue and I have devoted our lives to helping young people reach their potential. The fact that someone we thought we knew might have harmed young people to this extent is deeply troubling. If this is true we were all fooled, along with scores of professionals trained in such things, and we grieve for the victims and their families. They are in our prayers.

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators.

"I understand that people are upset and angry, but let's be fair and let the legal process unfold. In the meantime I would ask all Penn Staters to continue to trust in what that name represents, continue to pursue their lives every day with high ideals and not let these events shake their beliefs nor who they are."

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/joe_paterno_issues_statement_a.html

So JoePa expects people to actually accept this CYA horses**t? Stuff it you old fool.

 

[Icebear]

The DA at the time disappeared in 2005 and hasn't been seen or heard from since. His laptop without the hard drive was subsequently found in the Susquehanna River.

Yes, I remember the time of his disappearance. My recollection is that the hard drive alone was found but was unreadable and that he had accessed a site on how to destroy hard drives one of which was disposal in water. His older brother, also, disappeared in 1996 From his West Chester, OH home. He was later found drowned in a river and ruled a suicide.

Ray was finally declared dead this past July.

 

[Icebear]

"Not being a witness that was likely the end of Joe's responsibility."

That may or may not have been the end of Paterno's legal responsibility but for me that's meaningless. What about his responsibility as a human being?
Whatever specifics he knew, it is obvious that he knew that something unacceptable was going on between one of his coaches and a child. For him to do nothing more than pass it up the chain is unconscionable.

Again, you and I have no knowledge of what was or was not pursued nor how. We have only the most superficial level of present media reports. Joe and McQueary both have said that McQueary did not address the situation as the a sexual assault because McQueary couldn't speak about it because he was so upset. Joe saying he passed it on to Curley doesn't mean he never asked another question or anything else or received answers that it was in the hands of authorities or whoever. We simply don't know. What Joe has suggested is simply patience. No denial or excuses. Patience. There will be plenty of time for condemnations later if necessary.

It is easy to assert that others should have done this or that but we don't live in their circumstances with their background. McQueary was 22 or so at the time and came upon an idol of PSU football doing something he couldn't imagine. The level to which this disturbed him is evident in his immediate call to his dad and contacting Joe the next morning still unable to put details to word. All we can say is that the state AG says that Joe and McQueary did exactly what was required. The clarity of hind sight makes it clear it was insufficient to halt someone who appears to have had the whole world fooled.

Ray Gricar was DA at the time of both the 1998 and 2002 incidents. LINK http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/former_centre_county_da_ray_g.html

Both AD Curley and VP Schultz have now resigned.

Probably time to consider locking this as unfruitful and off topic as the season is upon us.
Or send it to the OT Board.

 

[Icebear]

One last thing to note in PA's law is that while it mandates reporting by a variety of persons it makes no provision for training. Sadly, many required reporters recive no training. Fortunately, as pastors we receive training and foremost is if in doubt call your local Youth and Family Services agency. They will know the law.

 

[Icebear]

Press release from PA Attourney General this morning:

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=6270

 

[UConnCat]

It is easy to assert that others should have done this or that but we don't live in their circumstances with their background. McQueary was 22 or so at the time and came upon an idol of PSU football doing something he couldn't imagine. The level to which this disturbed him is evident in his immediate call to his dad and contacting Joe the next morning still unable to put details to word. All we can say is that the state AG says that Joe and McQueary did exactly what was required.

According to the Grand Jury report, McQueary was 28 at the time, old enough to know he witnessed the rape of a child. He was disturbed enough to call his father and Paterno, but not enough to call the police. No one called the police. What would it have taken to get the police involved? I don't understand. There are some things that fall outside the realm of a chain of command and this is clearly one of them.

 

[Icebear]

You're right Cat, what I calculated was his age at the time of the 1998 incident which did not involve him, not 2002 which did. Many, many dates to keep straight.

I am sorry but no one can say anything about what they would do until they are in that position and therefore what someone should do. I am presently counseling a guy in the local prison who is accused of child sexual abuse but the entanglement of divorce, step children, and numerous secondary events makes the accusations questionable but none the less the accused has been in jail for 5-6 months. Fact is McQueary did exactly what he was required to do and has cooperated with authorities whenever they asked him for information. Now he is able to express with a clarity he apparently could not express at the time what he saw. This is not unusual.

Thing that is easy to agree about is that Sandusky seems to have been caught in the act and admitted to actions highly questionable SEVERAL times, 1998, 2000, 2002, 200? People who do such things in a predatory manner are truly despicable.

 

[UConnCat]

Fact is McQueary did exactly what he was required to do and has cooperated with authorities whenever they asked him for information. Now he is able to express with a clarity he apparently could not express at the time what he saw. This is not unusual.

According to the Grand Jury report (p. 7), McQueary expressed to Curley and Shultz exactly what he witnessed in the shower. The GJ didn't find a lack of clarity in that communication; indeed, that communication forms the basis for its perjury charges. Cooperating with authorities when one is a witness to a crime is not voluntary; it's a legal obligation. What's at issue here is more than what's required under the law, however. This is about a moral responsibility we owe each other as human beings. Many people involved in this mess fell short in that responsibility.

 

[cardfan]

Amen. Protecting their "reputation" organizationally motivates them to simply continue the perpetuation of the abuse of power upon the victims.

Agreed. This case sickens me, that Joe and others didn't go directly to the police, even the campus police.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Why are some seeming to be apologists or even making excuses for the goings on with people associated with Penn State. Sure as fans of a particular school its natural to give the benefit of the doubt and want to back the school and the actions of those associated with that school, but I'm sorry in this instance they don't deserve it.

Go ahead and believe that its a coincidence or McQueary was fully and the best qualified to get the coaching position he received. I don't. Also go ahead and believe that McQueary didn't give enough details of what was going on that those in power should have notified appropriate State officials. I don't. Why would they deny Sandusky access to Penn State facilities if they didn't know what was going on. Explain that after the length of time Sandusky was associated with the program and I'm sure was a great recruiting asset. There had to have been a serious reason why to suddenly deny access and now it seems we know the reason. This was a coverup and now its seen the light of day.

I do have a question about what Joe Pa should have done after he notified school officials. IMHO he is getting the benefit of the doubt because he's a school and State Icon and they don't want his accomplishments tarnished. However, as someone who prides himself on the builder of men, he should have done much more then what he did. I don't believe he didn't have idea of what was actually going on.

 

[HuskyNan]

Fact is McQueary did exactly what he was required to do and has cooperated with authorities whenever they asked him for information. Now he is able to express with a clarity he apparently could not express at the time what he saw. This is not unusual.

Sorry, but one can be legally in the right but still in the moral wrong. I would not be able to sleep if I knew a pedophile was being allowed to continue having contact with young children without any consequences. Even if the manager were emotionally distressed by seeing the abuse, and I can easily imagine that could be the case, you would think after a few months went by and the predator was still appearing on campus with young boys that the manager - or anyone that knew of the previous rape - would call the cops.

I can't fathom why you're putting up any manner of defense of the people at PSU, ice. The actions, or rather inaction, of the people there are indefensible.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

Agreed. This case sickens me, that Joe and others didn't go directly to the police, even the campus police.

They did not do so because it was not in the interests of PS Football, the heck with raped child or others in the future...meanwhile, the ever vigilant NCAA sleuths keep an eye out for illegal payment for student athlete breakfasts.

Watch for adults involved to wrap themselves in the blanket of technical legalities, chain of command, and lack of knowledge. Be interesting to see if Diogenes’ Lantern finds an honest face here.

 

[Icebear]

According to the Grand Jury report (p. 7), McQueary expressed to Curley and Shultz exactly what he witnessed in the shower. The GJ didn't find a lack of clarity in that communication; indeed, that communication forms the basis for its perjury charges. Cooperating with authorities when one is a witness to a crime is not voluntary; it's a legal obligation. What's at issue here is more than what's required under the law, however. This is about a moral responsibility we owe each other as human beings. Many people involved in this mess fell short in that responsibility.

I was referring in his talk with Joe. The other meeting with Curley and Schultz was ten days later a significant difference emotionally. McQueary backed Joe's version but not Curley and Schultz.

Neither you nor I know anything about McQueary's background. Whether he was a victim of abuse or anything else. It is easy to stand in judgment without knowing more. His cooperation with police is required by law and he has done nothing to shirk it anywhere along the way. The same apparently cannot be said for Curley and Schultz.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Couple of Opinions

Wash Post - Link

Blog - Link

While I also think Joe P should resign, he won't as it would be construed as an admission of guilt.

BTW, I also believed he should have resigned a number of years ago and is only hanging on to increase his legacy with the number of wins he's credited with. Does anyone really believe he's the head coach and responsible for the day to day running and coaching the Penn State Football team?

Like many other coaches, rock stars, athletes and others they don't know when time has passed them by and they need the limelight to feel important.

 

[Icebear]

Sorry, but one can be legally in the right but still in the moral wrong. I would not be able to sleep if I knew a pedophile was being allowed to continue having contact with young children without any consequences. Even if the manager were emotionally distressed by seeing the abuse, and I can easily imagine that could be the case, you would think after a few months went by and the predator was still appearing on campus with young boys that the manager - or anyone that knew of the previous rape - would call the cops.

I can't fathom why you're putting up any manner of defense of the people at PSU, ice. The actions, or rather inaction, of the people there are indefensible.

I am not making any moral defense of those involved. I am saying people are rushing to conclusions about people the AG has said have been fully cooperative and will provide testimony in trials. We know nothing of the circumstances except that the AG says they did exactly what they should have done. It is also easy for us to look back knowing everything but which individuals knew which parts of the picture is very different when living forward. All that is indicated is that Joe knew of the one instance involving McQueary and his one experience. I spoke with a lawyer friend in PA last night and he affirmed what I suggested yesterday that individuals may have been caught between conflicting laws.

Morally, we know nothing of the circumstances and history of people's lives by which to have a context for judging anything. I make no apology for anyone, especially, Curley and Schultz who are charged. I simply suggest that Joe's advice is correct, be patient and let things play out.

If one knew that McQueary was abused as a child how does that affect one's opinion of his reaction. What other circumstances could significantly bear on one's present urge to judge.

You were worried because you thought I was judging Seimone a couple of months ago which I wasn't I was speaking strictly of the realities of the psychology of body art, specifically, full body art. In the same way now I am only cautioning a concern of rushing to moral judgment because we just don't know. Remember that prosecutors do not give all their ammo to Grad Juries, just enough to get the indictment. Once there are charges and defendents such things change. Maybe prosecutors know things about actions by Joe and McQueary they don't want shared yet.

What about the janitor who apparently saw a similar circumstance in 2000 and apparently reported it to no one at the time.

 

[Icebear]

Couple of Opinions
While I also think Joe P should resign, he won't as it would be construed as an admission of guilt.

BTW, I also believed he should have resigned a number of years ago and is only hanging on to increase his legacy with the number of wins he's credited with. Does anyone really believe he's the head coach and responsible for the day to day running and coaching the Penn State Football team?

Like many other coaches, rock stars, athletes and others they don't know when time has passed them by and they need the limelight to feel important.

If one watches games it is clear Joe is not running the team.

I, too, think Joe should have retired a couple of years ago. On the other hand PSU is now 8-1 with only a loss to Alabama. Mystery.

 

[UConnCat]

I don't know if the law required Paterno to contact the police, but not doing so doesn't seem praise-worthy in any way - the crime was despicable and needed reporting to put an end to Sandusky's activity. JP reported it to his supervisor but was TOTALLY aware that nothing was being done. He was part of the coverup. He just didn't lie to the grand jury like the other two guys did.

I would recommend watching the video of the powerful statement by the PA State Police Commissioner at today's press conference. He spoke about a "culture" that did nothing to stop the behavior. He said that he's never been associated with a case where there were so many eye witnesses of acts with children without the police being called. He also said there no heroes in this story other than the investigators. http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/authorities-say-innocence-lost-at-penn-state-14898056

BTW, one of the questions asked of the AG was about Sandusky bringing a young boy to a PSU football practice in 2007 and whether Paterno and McQueary witnessed their presence and whether that could lead to potential charges against them. She declined to say anything other than the investigation is ongoing.