OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread

[meyers7]

I'm glad the PK's went the way they did. Not only was Costa Rica the better team, but they were also absolutely robbed by the fact that the ref missed an intentional handball in the box to prevent a goal. Not only should that have resulted in a PK to take a 2-0 lead, but it should have resulted in a red card due to the intent.

The ref misses it, and instead of being up 2-0 and a man advantage, Costa Rica ends up going a man down and the Greeks tie it up 1-1. But Costa Rica showed a lot of heart and a lot of team D, and they got the job done. CONCACAF rolls into the quarters. Hopefully, we can join them on Tuesday...

Red cards for handling don't work that way. It pretty much has to be intentional to be a handling call. If it's done to prevent a break away (tactical foul) or to score a goal it can be a YC. The only way it's going to be a RC is if it prevents an obvious goal scoring opportunity (DOGSO-H) and that's if a player blocks the ball going into the net (see Suarez circa 2010 WC). So at the most that could have been a YC.

But I agree it should have been a PK.

 

[meyers7]

2. Everyone missed the handball including the announcers and the stadium. Why? Because it was unintentional. The guy went to head the ball and it brushed his skull and onto his hand. The fact is, it would not have mattered anyway because if he hadn't done that, the cross would have sailed out of bounds, which is what happened anyway. In fact, it would have been Greek ball instead of Costa Rica ball if he hadn't touched it with his hand.

Disagree here. Take a look at this and you can pretty much tell the player knew what he was doing. He misjudged heading it and at the last second threw up his arm to get a touch. These guys are professionals. They know what they are doing.

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/BrU88e_CEAAyKw1.mp4

 

[meyers7]

A Costa Rican wiffed at the top of the box and the ball trickles into the Greek net. Bravo. In a way the Costa Ricans did to the Greeks what the Greeks often have done to others in the past. Good for both of them.

ummmm Hello McFly??? Ruiz's shot was a perfectly place ball. Not a wiff. What you smoking there???

 

[housekeys]

To go back to Bradley's play for a moment... I was watching with a British friend of mine who consumes ungodly amounts of soccer and he thinks Americans are crazy for thinking Bradley isn't absolutely The Man for the US. Yeah, he's had some bad first touches/giveaways, but he also has run more than any other player in the World Cup. Because he's always there. No other player on the US is close to always being in position to make a play. The alternative to Bradley's bad first touch is nobody being there. He is literally the only guy running box to box for 90+ minutes every game. Hard to blame the guy for being gassed.

I do think he needs to play better, but anybody who thinks we have a better alternative to Bradley on the bench is insane.

I agree with your British friend. You need to have that sort of player and the USA has one. You are also right about him needing to do better, but a lot has to do with the attention he is getting from opposing teams, perhaps the best compliment and confirmation of his importance.

 

[housekeys]

ummmm Hello McFly??? Ruiz's shot was a perfectly place ball. Not a wiff. What you smoking there???

Consider golf. Putting a ball is different than swinging an iron. Different motions. To "place" a ball in soccer is the equivalent of putting in golf. Now if you believe Ruiz's motion is more like he was putting than swinging, you are right, and I will leave it at that. To me, the follow through and his overall swing, combined with where the foot made contact with the ball, all indicated a mist-hit(filter alert) of some sort. In a placed ball the body is more square as is the follow through. I am also assuming you know the term "place" implies a style of shot in soccer. And for the record, it does not matter. He did an excellent job making contact.

 

[UConnDan97]

Red cards for handling don't work that way. It pretty much has to be intentional to be a handling call. If it's done to prevent a break away (tactical foul) or to score a goal it can be a YC. The only way it's going to be a RC is if it prevents an obvious goal scoring opportunity (DOGSO-H) and that's if a player blocks the ball going into the net (see Suarez circa 2010 WC). So at the most that could have been a YC.

But I agree it should have been a PK.

See ZooCougar's GIF and you'll see exactly why it fits your description of a red card...

EDIT: Here are the red card offenses. Like you mentioned, the one in bold is the key issue here. I'm pretty sure he's achieved the letter of the law on this one:

1. Serious foul play (a violent foul)
2. Violent conduct (any other act of violence) e.g. assaulting the referee.
3. Spitting at anyone or another player
4. A deliberate handling offense to deny an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by any player other than a goalkeeper in his own penalty area
5. Committing an offence that denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity (informally known as a professional foul)
6. Using offensive, insulting or abusive language or gestures
7. Receiving a second caution (yellow card) in the same game

 

[SubbaBub]

I agree with your British friend. You need to have that sort of player and the USA has one. You are also right about him needing to do better, but a lot has to do with the attention he is getting from opposing teams, perhaps the best compliment and confirmation of his importance.

Not too mention that just about everyone else is playing above expectations. Bradley clearly isn't, so it stands out because so much more is expected and he hasn't had to cover everyone else.

It's almost as if he doesn't have enough to do and is over thinking the opportunities he's been getting.

 

[meyers7]

Consider golf. Putting a ball is different than swinging an iron. Different motions. To "place" a ball in soccer is the equivalent of putting in golf. Now if you believe Ruiz's motion is more like he was putting than swinging, you are right, and I will leave it at that. To me, the follow through and his overall swing, combined with where the foot made contact with the ball, all indicated a mist-hit(filter alert) of some sort. In a placed ball the body is more square as is the follow through. I am also assuming you know the term "place" implies a style of shot in soccer. And for the record, it does not matter. He did an excellent job making contact.

Yea, that was a placed shot. He put it right where he wanted. No wiff there. His follow through definitely indicated it was his intent to slide the ball right into the corner.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Not too mention that just about everyone else is playing above expectations. Bradley clearly isn't, so it stands out because so much more is expected and he hasn't had to cover everyone else.

It's almost as if he doesn't have enough to do and is over thinking the opportunities he's been getting.

He's been good, but he hasn't been the dynamic, ball possession midfielder he was billed as. The reality is that he looks more like a defensive midfielder, playing out of position because we have nobody else with the right skill set. Every now and then I see him actually dribble the ball, and every time he does, it opens up opportunities. He has to do it more often and more confidently.

These long balls from the back are a waste of possession, I'd rather see Bradley, Jones, Johnson or Beasley try to beat someone and make a run.

 

[meyers7]

1. A deliberate handling offense to deny an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by any player other than a goalkeeper in his own penalty area

True,those are the 7 sending off offenses, but it isn't considered an obvious goal scoring opportunity (DOGSO-H) unless the ball is heading into the goal. Just the way the law is applied.

From the Advice to Referees (ATR). (Granted this is a USSF publication but is pretty much in line with what's done throughout the world/FIFA.)

12.37
The send-off offense for deliberate handling, number 4 under the seven send-off offenses, "denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)," does not require any particular alignment of players for either team, but simply the occurrence of the offense under circumstances in which, in the opinion of the referee, the ball would likely have gone directly into the goal but for the handling.

Denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball would apply to any player (or substitute) other than the goalkeeper in his or her own penalty area who handles a ball to prevent it from entering the goal, even if the ball was last played by a member of the defending team.

 

[Gurleyman]

True,those are the 7 sending off offenses, but it isn't considered an obvious goal scoring opportunity (DOGSO-H) unless the ball is heading into the goal. Just the way the law is applied. From the Advice to Referees (ATR). (Granted this is a USSF publication but is pretty much in line with what's done throughout the world/FIFA.) 12.37 The send-off offense for deliberate handling, number 4 under the seven send-off offenses, "denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)," does not require any particular alignment of players for either team, but simply the occurrence of the offense under circumstances in which, in the opinion of the referee, the ball would likely have gone directly into the goal but for the handling. Denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball would apply to any player (or substitute) other than the goalkeeper in his or her own penalty area who handles a ball to prevent it from entering the goal, even if the ball was last played by a member of the defending team.

Could the "last defender" red be applied, or is that only for fouls where the player has possession and is tripped or held?

 

[housekeys]

Yea, that was a placed shot. He put it right where he wanted. No wiff there. His follow through definitely indicated it was his intent to slide the ball right into the corner.

I have looked at the replays a few times, and I think you are right about this. In real-time it looked like a mist-hit, but on second look, it does seem he was aiming for the corner. I stand corrected on that comment.

 

[meyers7]

Could the "last defender" red be applied, or is that only for fouls where the player has possession and is tripped or held?

Last defender is for denying goal scoring opportunity by fouling (trip, push, hold, etc.) . They separate DOGSO-Handling and DOGSO-Foul for RC offenses.

For DOGSO-F they lay out 4 items to consider (USSF calls them the 4 D's)

- second to last Defender (or could be last defender - you'll see GK's caught on this sometimes)
- Distance to ball (did the attacker play it too far in front of himself, would he have been able to catch up to it before it went out of play)
- Direction of play/player (was attacker heading towards goal or away from goal)
- Distance to goal (how far away the attacker is from goal. enough time/space for a defender to catch up. i.e. they don't happen near midfield)

 

[SubbaBub]

He's been good, but he hasn't been the dynamic, ball possession midfielder he was billed as. The reality is that he looks more like a defensive midfielder, playing out of position because we have nobody else with the right skill set. Every now and then I see him actually dribble the ball, and every time he does, it opens up opportunities. He has to do it more often and more confidently.

These long balls from the back are a waste of possession, I'd rather see Bradley, Jones, Johnson or Beasley try to beat someone and make a run.

This will make some people angry but, do you mean from the position that Kyle Beckerman is currently occupying?

 

[meyers7]

I have looked at the replays a few times, and I think you are right about this. In real-time it looked like a mist-hit, but on second look, it does seem he was aiming for the corner. I stand corrected on that comment.

Yea at the first look it could have looked like a mis-hit. And the fact that the defense was caught so far off-guard. But with the replays, you could tell what he was doing. Which makes it a really good shot.

 

[UConnDan97]

This will make some people angry but, do you mean from the position that Kyle Beckerman is currently occupying?

It won't make me angry, if that's what you were referring to. I think that Klinsmann has been clear on what he wants, however. If he wanted to press, with more attack-minded dribbling, then you would probably see 4 midfielders and somebody right off the striker, rather than 2 holding defensive midfielders in the 4-1-4-1. Someone like a Cameron in the midfield comes to mind to be the bottom of the diamond 4, and with Bradley and Jones in the middle and Dempsey right off the striker, using only 1 "wing" midfielder (Zusi?).

Klinsmann seems pretty content in the 4-1-4-1, and I tend to agree with that assessment. I think they look much better in the current format...

 

[UConnDan97]

True,those are the 7 sending off offenses, but it isn't considered an obvious goal scoring opportunity (DOGSO-H) unless the ball is heading into the goal. Just the way the law is applied.

From the Advice to Referees (ATR). (Granted this is a USSF publication but is pretty much in line with what's done throughout the world/FIFA.)

12.37
The send-off offense for deliberate handling, number 4 under the seven send-off offenses, "denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)," does not require any particular alignment of players for either team, but simply the occurrence of the offense under circumstances in which, in the opinion of the referee, the ball would likely have gone directly into the goal but for the handling.

Denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball would apply to any player (or substitute) other than the goalkeeper in his or her own penalty area who handles a ball to prevent it from entering the goal, even if the ball was last played by a member of the defending team.

Yup, I think you're right about it likely being a yellow instead of a red. PK + Yellow Card was probably the correct call from the ref...

 

[SubbaBub]

It won't make me angry, if that's what you were referring to. I think that Klinsmann has been clear on what he wants, however. If he wanted to press, with more attack-minded dribbling, then you would probably see 4 midfielders and somebody right off the striker, rather than 2 holding defensive midfielders in the 4-1-4-1. Someone like a Cameron in the midfield comes to mind to be the bottom of the diamond 4, and with Bradley and Jones in the middle and Dempsey right off the striker, using only 1 "wing" midfielder (Zusi?).

Klinsmann seems pretty content in the 4-1-4-1, and I tend to agree with that assessment. I think they look much better in the current format...

I liked it initially, but that was based on the premise that Jones and Bradley couldn't work out who was covering and who was going forward and the dearth of talent at left midfield.

If you remember Jones, Dempsey, and Beasley were covering that side against Ghana, Bradley covering the right and Beckerman sitting in front of the back 4. I think Jones and Bradley have figured it out and we could play the 4231 or 442 with Jozy in there. The diamond isn't working against better competition, which is what got Beckerman in the lineup initially. If I'm aggressively going for the win, I trade the safety blanket Beckerman has been providing and play Jones/Bradley in back and Bedoya Dempsey Zusi beneath Jozy, knowing I can sub Yedlin, Green, Mix, or Johannsonn in for either winger. Or, Beckerman if we are protecting a late lead. It's how this roster was designed, may as well play it now that everyone is eligible.

Biggest question is Cameron or Gonzalez? IDK, I trust Cameron more but Gonzalez played pretty well last game. Cameron plays against Felliani and Lukaku in the EPL but Gonzalez is a better aerial defender.

 

[ZooCougar]

Someone should make a Kyle Beckerman decision tree where every course of action leads to a backwards pass.

 

[UConnDan97]

I liked it initially, but that was based on the premise that Jones and Bradley couldn't work out who was covering and who was going forward and the dearth of talent at left midfield.

If you remember Jones, Dempsey, and Beasley were covering that side against Ghana, Bradley covering the right and Beckerman sitting in front of the back 4. I think Jones and Bradley have figured it out and we could play the 4231 or 442 with Jozy in there. The diamond isn't working against better competition, which is what got Beckerman in the lineup initially. If I'm aggressively going for the win, I trade the safety blanket Beckerman has been providing and play Jones/Bradley in back and Bedoya Dempsey Zusi beneath Jozy, knowing I can sub Yedlin, Green, Mix, or Johannsonn in for either winger. Or, Beckerman if we are protecting a late lead. It's how this roster was designed, may as well play it now that everyone is eligible.

Biggest question is Cameron or Gonzalez? IDK, I trust Cameron more but Gonzalez played pretty well last game. Cameron plays against Felliani and Lukaku in the EPL but Gonzalez is a better aerial defender.

I agree with what you're saying if you are operating under the premise that we are going to try to be the aggressor. You put on some speedy wing midfielders like Green or maybe the speed of Yedlin coming out of the back. But contrary to what Klinsmann has said, that is not what we are going to do. And I agree that it should not be what we do in the knockout stages. And here's my reasoning why:

1) Assume we are the underdog from here out - It's a fair assumption actually, when you are looking at a probable road involving Belgium, Argentina, Holland, and Germany / Brasil. Therefore, keeping the game tight and compact, hoping for a hit on the counter, and living with any result that comes from PK's should be the thought process.

2) Have players on the field that are comfortable in the big moment - For all of his gifts, Green is still....well, green. We've seen how inexperience on the big stage has already played out with Johansson. It's crucial that the boys who are on the big stage can deal with the lights.

3) Klinsmann has already shown his hand on defense - Against the much more threatening opposition of Germany, Gonzalez was favored over Cameron. I don't think this was a "Manaus thing", although it may have been. I think it was a "I want to win the ball in the box at all costs, even if Gonzalez is not as good with the ball on his feet as Cameron" thing.

For those reasons, I think you will see Beckerman - Jones in the dual holding role from here on out, as well as Gonzalez in the central D. How Klinsmann works Jozy in (presumably for one of the wing midfielders) is up for grabs...

 

[ZooCougar]

Algeria came to play.

 

[SubbaBub]

I agree with what you're saying if you are operating under the premise that we are going to try to be the aggressor. You put on some speedy wing midfielders like Green or maybe the speed of Yedlin coming out of the back. But contrary to what Klinsmann has said, that is not what we are going to do. And I agree that it should not be what we do in the knockout stages. And here's my reasoning why:

1) Assume we are the underdog from here out - It's a fair assumption actually, when you are looking at a probable road involving Belgium, Argentina, Holland, and Germany / Brasil. Therefore, keeping the game tight and compact, hoping for a hit on the counter, and living with any result that comes from PK's should be the thought process.

2) Have players on the field that are comfortable in the big moment - For all of his gifts, Green is still....well, green. We've seen how inexperience on the big stage has already played out with Johansson. It's crucial that the boys who are on the big stage can deal with the lights.

3) Klinsmann has already shown his hand on defense - Against the much more threatening opposition of Germany, Gonzalez was favored over Cameron. I don't think this was a "Manaus thing", although it may have been. I think it was a "I want to win the ball in the box at all costs, even if Gonzalez is not as good with the ball on his feet as Cameron" thing.

For those reasons, I think you will see Beckerman - Jones in the dual holding role from here on out, as well as Gonzalez in the central D. How Klinsmann works Jozy in (presumably for one of the wing midfielders) is up for grabs...

I think we are more even talent wise than most, but we are prone to mistakes. I think the best strategy is to jump on a team that's had trouble getting into matches. I think a clean sheet isn't happening, so to avoid a late loss or PK's, I'd attack early.

I also don't think Yedlin or Green can play 90 on the wing without being exposed defensively. Bedoya has done a decent job covering his side and helping on O as long as his legs last. Zusi just the opposite, good pressing and creating and doing enough on D. He's also been a bit fitter than Bedoya.

 

[ZooCougar]

I think we are more even talent wise than most, but we are prone to mistakes. I think the best strategy is to jump on a team that's had trouble getting into matches. I think a clean sheet isn't happening, so to avoid a late loss or PK's, I'd attack early.

I also don't think Yedlin or Green can play 90 on the wing without being exposed defensively. Bedoya has done a decent job covering his side and helping on O as long as his legs last. Zusi just the opposite, good pressing and creating and doing enough on D. He's also been a bit fitter than Bedoya.

Yedlin yes. Green no.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Not too mention that just about everyone else is playing above expectations. Bradley clearly isn't, so it stands out because so much more is expected and he hasn't had to cover everyone else.

It's almost as if he doesn't have enough to do and is over thinking the opportunities he's been getting.

I wonder how much of Bradley's poor play has been due to the loss of Jozy?

 

[UConnDan97]

I wonder how much of Bradley's poor play has been due to the loss of Jozy?

In my opinion, "a lot!"

Bradley is playing a bit out of position. So is Dempsey. The question becomes: How long can Jozy play for? If he can give us anything close to 65 - 70 minutes, it will really really help our attack. Not just from what he can bring, but what it allows Bradley and Dempsey to bring...