OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread

[UConnDan97]

Not many people understand that the US can win one, lose two and not advance? If by "not many people", you mean practically everyone, I agree.

Well then, you're an idiot. Because apparently, you don't realize that you can beat Ghana, NOT lose the other two games, and STILL not advance! How do you like that? You could actually end up with 5 points, along with two other teams, and have them go through based on goal difference or goals scored. So thanks for proving my point...

 

[ZooCougar]

Anyone who has followed US Soccer for the last decade or two, can provide several pages of links on questionable calls against the US. Is it a conspiracy? The Slovenia call was horrible. But, the Torsten Frings’ handball and some out of this world play from Germany’s keeper Kahn, who kept Germany in the game, preserved their 1-0 win over the US in the 2002 Quarterfinal in S Korea was more painful. Even more so as if the US had beaten Germany (they had major momentum and mojo at that point in the match), the US would have played S Korea (who the US tied earlier in Group play) in the semis. That was a winnable game. Could have the US beaten Brazil in the final. Who knows; but, it would have been fun.




http://theshinguardian.com/2012/06/20/world-cup-2002-germany-1-usa-0-the-ten-year-reunion/

The 2010 Cup overall was horrible with the US England, Ghana, and Mexico all victims of some very suspicious calls. The missed goal for England at least made FIFA finally look at goal line technology due to serious financial threats from English football. That cup was capped by a street fight between Spain and the Netherlands who played a bit of soccer in between 13 cards. 2006 of course has the Zindane head-butt that overshadowed both Italy’s ability to dive at the slightest touch and Australia getting hosed by the refs in several games.

I was right behind the goal. Saw the whole thing. We were robbed!

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Sounds like more than any sport, it's a good idea to keep the officials on your good side. Soccer field is really big and there is only one guy out there right?

There is no replay in soccer either right? That's absolutely amazing.

1 Referee and 2 linesmen who are responsible for keeping track of 22 players, and a ball all of whom are moving at a high rate of speed. Thus, I can see certain mistakes, like the German handball in 2002 as it was a pile of folks in the goal box. But, the obvious and controversial gaffs are just not excusable such as the missed goal by England in 2010 or the guy from Croatia getting 3 yellow cards and still not ejected against Australia in 2006. FIFA needs replay technology, especially in goal situations where the ball stops anyway; but, Sepp and company want nothing to do with it. There has even been talk of adding a second ref; but, politically, that is dead.

That’s why many soccer fans will start singing 3 blind mice when things get bad, even at the youth level. I played a soccer JV game once against a ref who was running around with the ref’s handbook open in his hand. Played a varsity game against one team in which my team picked-up 7 or so yellow cards (2 ejections) while the other team received none in a very physical match. Found out later the referee was the brother of the other team’s coach. That did not go well with the high school sports council. I went to a girl’s county championship last year between the top 2 teams in the state in front of 2,000 people go into a second (and last OT) tied 1 to 1 in extra time with the scoreboard clock blow the game dead during a 1 v goalkeeper breakaway. I am a ref, also, and could not find any excuse for that call.

 

[Carl Spackler]

1 Referee and 2 linesmen who are responsible for keeping track of 22 players, and a ball all of whom are moving at a high rate of speed. Thus, I can see certain mistakes, like the German handball in 2002 as it was a pile of folks in the goal box. But, the obvious and controversial gaffs are just not excusable such as the missed goal by England in 2010 or the guy from Croatia getting 3 yellow cards and still not ejected against Australia in 2006. FIFA needs replay technology, especially in goal situations where the ball stops anyway; but, Sepp and company want nothing to do with it. There has even been talk of adding a second ref; but, politically, that is dead.

That’s why many soccer fans will start singing 3 blind mice when things get bad, even at the youth level. I played a soccer JV game once against a ref who was running around with the ref’s handbook open in his hand. Played a varsity game against one team in which my team picked-up 7 or so yellow cards (2 ejections) while the other team received none in a very physical match. Found out later the referee was the brother of the other team’s coach. That did not go well with the high school sports council. I went to a girl’s county championship last year between the top 2 teams in the state in front of 2,000 people go into a second (and last OT) tied 1 to 1 in extra time with the scoreboard clock blow the game dead during a 1 v goalkeeper breakaway. I am a ref, also, and could not find any excuse for that call.

So - the "beautiful sport" has a dark underbelly. Nice.

At least in football, the argument is whether or not the officials are ballsy enough, because of the scrutiny they are under to get calls right, rather than what appears to exist in soccer!!

Either way - to me - it sure appears that there is a whole dimension of soccer, and specifically, success in soccer that has to do with communication, and style of play, reputation, and how officials are going to react to it.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

So - the "beautiful sport" has a dark underbelly. Nice.

At least in football, the argument is whether or not the officials are ballsy enough, because of the scrutiny they are under to get calls right, rather than what appears to exist in soccer!!

Either way - to me - it sure appears that there is a whole dimension of soccer, and specifically, success in soccer that has to do with communication, and style of play, reputation, and how officials are going to react to it.

In the World Cup, national teams are involved and thus national ego, global geopolitics, and a lot of money are involved in a greater degree than any other sports (sorry Olympic hockey; but only a few countries play that sport).

This all comes out with the World Cup. This is easily seen when a host country is picked. Europe, who gets more votes than any other region, appears to play a lot of games with the pool selection and schedules. US has had a history of FIFA placing referees with already checkered pasts into US games (USA v. Germany in ’02 w/ Dallas, this weeks’ game, etc.). The US and the rest of CONCACAF play all sorts of games with site selection for qualifiers with Panama scheduling games during hurricanes, Costa Rico throwing fireworks, batteries, and dung bombs at players, Mexico with their games in the heat and smog of Azteca while they blast music and start riots out in front the US team’s hotel, and ofcourse the US scheduling games in Columbus in the winter or better yet Denver in a blizzard.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I was right behind the goal. Saw the whole thing. We were robbed!

PS – On the Germany handball, I did find this old quote from the BBC from good old Hugh, who by the way, retired from referring after 2002 and became Scotland’s program director, which he was sacked for. Could not happen to a nicer guy. He admits he saw the play; but decided it was incidental. Incidental or not, any hand blocking a ball in the penalty box is a PK. Incidental should only be addressed for issuing a Red Card or not.

World Cup referee Hugh Dallas is standing by his decision not to award a penalty to the USA during their match against Germany.
American fans blamed the Scottish official after their 1-0 quarter-final defeat.
The controversy arose when German keeper Oliver Kahn scrambled across to keep out a goalbound effort from Gregg Berhalter.
The ball was going into the net when Torsten Frings seemed to use his arm to block it on the goal-line.
" A foul can only be given if it is deliberate hand to ball and not ball to hand"
Hugh Dallas
Television replays confirmed the ball had hit the defender's right arm - but Dallas maintains he made the right decision.
"I know there was an incident in the game where the call was for a penalty to the USA when the ball hit the arm of a German player," he told the Sunday Mail.
"Without going into detail, as Fifa rules forbid me from speaking about specific incidents, I had a totally clear view.
"We are taught to judge these incidents by watching to see if the arm moves - and a foul can only be given if it is deliberate hand to ball and not ball to hand.
"If it's not intentional, it's not a foul, no matter where it is.
"Even in the debrief with the Fifa inspector where we went over the major incidents, he didn't have a problem with the way the game had been officiated.
"And that was reiterated at the main debrief in Tokyo which went well for me too."​

 

[meyers7]

I never really realized it until right now, but it sure looks like there are definitely situations where plays that would warrant a penalty (yellow commonly for sure - red, debateable) if called by the official, are plays that should be made on the field. Much like "giving fouls" in basketball.

Yes, there are times when a player will take a YC for the team. Goals are at a premium, so sometimes players will make what are called "tactical fouls". Basically the ball OR the man might get by me, but not both. Sometimes if a good player is getting a head of steam up, running at the defense, a player will just take him down, knowing they are going to get a YC for it. This particularly why getting YC early in the game for stupid stuff like arguing with the ref (Dissent) can be stupid and dangerous. Late in the game a player may need to make a tactical foul, but either can't due to getting the YC or does and get's the 2nd YC and the subsequent RC.

 

[meyers7]

Sounds like more than any sport, it's a good idea to keep the officials on your good side. Soccer field is really big and there is only one guy out there right?

There is no replay in soccer either right? That's absolutely amazing.

Actually, there's a Center Ref, 2 Assistant Refs (Linesman) and a 4th Official and all are on headsets.

In some leagues now they use a 5th and 6th official basically stationed near the goals.

But no replay.....yet.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

And for entertainment, here is another YouTube collection of the greatest hits, literally.
This one would have result in an ejection and suspension even in hockey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPTOnClKCJc

This is what happens when geopolitics and soccer met in a very bad way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOtL1m1o_ok

 

[meyers7]

Incidental or not, any hand blocking a ball in the penalty box is a PK. Incidental should only be addressed for issuing a Red Card or not.

That's not true. RC is only for Denying an Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity (Handling). And DOGSOH is only applicable if the ball is heading directly into/towards the goal. But any "Handling" that is called that occurs in the penalty box (Penalty Area) is a PK. (Goalies cannot be called for Handling in the PA though.

" A foul can only be given if it is deliberate hand to ball and not ball to hand"
Hugh Dallas
​

Dallas is correct. Handling is (supposedly) the same call anywhere on the field, just like any other foul.) However, at this level, I'm pretty sure it was handling. Frings knew what he was doing. But the ball just hitting the hand is not necessarily a Handling call.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

That's not true. RC is only for Denying an Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity (Handling). And DOGSOH is only applicable if the ball is heading directly into/towards the goal. But any "Handling" that is called that occurs in the penalty box (Penalty Area) is a PK. (Goalies cannot be called for Handling in the PA though.


Dallas is correct. Handling is (supposedly) the same call anywhere on the field, just like any other foul.) However, at this level, I'm pretty sure it was handling. Frings knew what he was doing. But the ball just hitting the hand is not necessarily a Handling call.

I think we agree. A handball by any defender in the box (besides the keeper) should be a PK, deliberate or not, especially on the goal line. A red card or snot should be based on if the incident was deliberate or not. A clear example of a deliberate handball on the box is Suarez’s handball against Ghana in 2010. Do you think Cameron’s was deliberate? It’s close to me. As a ref I would say now, because I do not like handing out straight Reds unless there is a deliberate attempt to injure.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

FYI, FIFA has posted the referee pool for 2014, any thought? Anyone the US needs to avoid?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup_referees

 

[meyers7]

I think we agree. A handball by any defender in the box (besides the keeper) should be a PK, deliberate or not, especially on the goal line.

No, sorry I don't think I explained myself correctly. It should be judged just like a handling call anywhere else on the field. Has to be Handling, not just ball hitting hand. Have to be "playing the ball" with the hand (arm).

I think Cameron probably knew what he was doing. Close though. It's considered "deliberate" if one make oneself bigger, i.e. having arms out to the sides. I think Frings and Cameron were similar.

 

[UConnDan97]

It's considered "deliberate" if one make oneself bigger, i.e. having arms out to the sides.

THIS is the key point. Making oneself bigger makes it a handball, whether or not there was intent to handle the ball. There are a lot of referees at Oakwood that still don't understand this point!

For what it's worth, I don't think Cameron had shown intent, but his arm certainly was away from his body. It was an easy call for the referee...

 

[whaler11]

Donovan isn't there because Klinsmann wanted the 23 fastest and best physical conditioned players and Donovan didn't make the cut. It's got to be that simple. Green made a mistake I've seen 12 year olds make, he took possession of the ball near the sideline, and kicked it up field, and straight out of bounds to no one. He is also fast as hell, and was involved in some scoring chances.

LOL yeah it's that simple.

Literally no one with a clue at this point is defending the move.

It's assinine.

 

[whaler11]

Yeah, Like I said, putting him on the roster locks him up for the future. I have my doubts that he will even see the field in Brazil.

He's not going to play nor should he.

Trading a roster spot for him the future is a no brainer.

 

[progrocks]

Cam's hand was on his side if I remember. Certainly a penalty but that should not be a red. Suarez tried to block it like a keeper would, and it was a brilliant play in the situation.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

No, sorry I don't think I explained myself correctly. It should be judged just like a handling call anywhere else on the field. Has to be Handling, not just ball hitting hand. Have to be "playing the ball" with the hand (arm).

I think Cameron probably knew what he was doing. Close though. It's considered "deliberate" if one make oneself bigger, i.e. having arms out to the sides. I think Frings and Cameron were similar.

...and thus we circle back to Germany in 2002. I have no issue with a PK being given to Turkey for what Cameron did, just wish the blame was pegged to Chandler instead. Yet, somehow two very similar plays yields to very different calls from the Zebras.

 

[meyers7]

THIS is the key point. Making oneself bigger makes it a handball, whether or not there was intent to handle the ball. There are a lot of referees at Oakwood that still don't understand this point!

For what it's worth, I don't think Cameron had shown intent, but his arm certainly was away from his body. It was an easy call for the referee...

That's the intent.

 

[meyers7]

Cam's hand was on his side if I remember. Certainly a penalty but that should not be a red. Suarez tried to block it like a keeper would, and it was a brilliant play in the situation.

Has to be a RC. Denying a Goal Scoring Opportunity (Handling). As straight forward as they come.

It has to be either a PK and RC or nothing.

 

[meyers7]

...and thus we circle back to Germany in 2002. I have no issue with a PK being given to Turkey for what Cameron did, just wish the blame was pegged to Chandler instead. Yet, somehow two very similar plays yields to very different calls from the Zebras.

Agree. Chandler really blew that play.

 

[UConnDan97]

That's the intent.

Not really. If your arm is away from your body during your movement ("making yourself bigger"), you need not have intent. A person can kick the ball right at your arm without your thinking about it or "intending" it, and you will get called for the handball. That's why most defenders in the box run with the "two hands on the junk" style, or the slightly less popular "one hand on the junk, one hand on the chest"...

 

[SubbaBub]

My understanding is the current guidance is ball to hand = no call, hand to ball is a foul.

That being said, any ball striking a free arm is going to be called a penalty whether it is in a natural position or not.

The red card comes if it's deemed deliberate. IMO, the correct call was made on Cameron and the incorrect one was made in 2002.

Unless you are talking the top leagues in the world EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga, officiating can be very shaky. It's worse in the WC because of federation representation considerations. South Africa had to get some rep in 2010 and the result was a wrongly disallowed US goal vs. Slovenia by a local official way over his head.

It's nuts to have a single official on the field. You have at least two maybe three like the NBA, plus line judges.

The match fixing is very real and nearly killed the top Italian league a few years back when one of the top teams, Juventus was caught trying to fix matches. My guess is they weren't alone.

The US can count on a bad whistle, unless our success helps someone else, which it won't. The only think I think would help is if we have a pro - Messi crew against Portugal.

 

[meyers7]

Not really. If your arm is away from your body during your movement ("making yourself bigger"), you need not have intent. A person can kick the ball right at your arm without your thinking about it or "intending" it, and you will get called for the handball. That's why most defenders in the box run with the "two hands on the junk" style, or the slightly less popular "one hand on the junk, one hand on the chest"...

No, that's how they consider intent (or intentional). It's "making yourself bigger" or "having the hands/arms in an unnatural position" (with respect to playing soccer). I think those second words are the ones used in one of USSF's white papers on Handling.

And yes defenders do sometimes (usually) put their hands behind their backs in the box to avoid handling calls.

 

[meyers7]

My understanding is the current guidance is ball to hand = no call, hand to ball is a foul.

Yea, that's the basics of it. They go into it a little deeper, with hands/arms being in unnatural playing position. (sometimes said as "making yourself bigger").

Reflexive actions, or when a player doesn't have time to get out of the way are not supposed to be called. (although I've seen refs still do that - in reality probably more handling calls are made than should be, especially at lower age levels)

That being said, any ball striking a free arm is going to be called a penalty whether it is in a natural position or not.

Not necessarily and it shouldn't be. However, like I said a lot of times it is incorrectly called.

The red card comes if it's deemed deliberate. IMO, the correct call was made on Cameron and the incorrect one was made in 2002.

No, the deliberate or intentional has to do with whether it's a handling call or not. RC has to do with Denying Goal Scoring Opportunity.
I agree though, Cameron's was correct and 2002 was wrong.

Unless you are talking the top leagues in the world EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga, officiating can be very shaky. It's worse in the WC because of federation representation considerations. South Africa had to get some rep in 2010 and the result was a wrongly disallowed US goal vs. Slovenia by a local official way over his head.

I agree having to have refs from some of the federations doesn't help at all. They just don't do enough high level stuff on a regular basis.

It's nuts to have a single official on the field. You have at least two maybe three like the NBA, plus line judges.

Not sure I agree with that. First they have a center ref and 2 assts (linesmen). The linesmen can make pretty much any call. Also they have a 4th official. I've done High School reffing with 2 officials on the field and it's a mess. Never in a good position, some areas of the field are hardly covered at all. And, it's less consistent on the fouls/cards. Which is probably the worst thing in soccer.

The US can count on a bad whistle, unless our success helps someone else, which it won't. The only think I think would help is if we have a pro - Messi crew against Portugal.

Yea, that's why I thought it might have been just as well the Turkey-USA official sucked. It would give us a practice game to over come a ref, which we'll probably have to do at the WC.