OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread

[DarthGrumpy]

Probably just as well the officials were not great, gets USA ready for the weird calls we always seem to get in the WC.

Also from 2010, not only was the US goal disallowed against Slovenia somehow, just count how many US players were being held/tackled by Slovenia on this kick. Sadly, the Turkey game provided the US with some good experience for the 2014 Cup at keeping their heads on straight even when the Ref’s heads (but elbows were) are nowhere to be seen.

 

[ZooCougar]

Donovan isn't there because Klinsmann wanted the 23 fastest and best physical conditioned players and Donovan didn't make the cut. It's got to be that simple. Green made a mistake I've seen 12 year olds make, he took possession of the ball near the sideline, and kicked it up field, and straight out of bounds to no one. He is also fast as hell, and was involved in some scoring chances.

Carl, he looked like he was in over his head. Donovan would at least have been able to come in during the second half. I don't think he needed to be a 90 minute guy to make the roster.

 

[Carl Spackler]

No it's not. I'm sure 99.64% of the people posting on this thread...nay, board...have a similar opinion.

Ha - yeah, probably right. My point was that with my limited knowledge of soccer, which is improving dramatically, to the point where I probably won't even think (or write that anymore) and I don't mind saying so - I still think that any problems we're having with defending that seem to be the major concern for this team by most people - are far outweighed by potential mental mistakes symptomatic like that which could be incredibly costly in a world cup game, and that actually worries me about our chances of success in ways that I wasn't concerned about before.

The handball in goal - If that player is going to be ejected from a world cup game and miss the next game given the official calls it. I'd still want a player to do it in a world cup game. My soccer belief I've established now, is that you stop that ball no matter what - in a meaningful game. In a meaningless game? A friendly? To me - it's a clear mental mistake.

The handball on the sideline? That's a mental error you can't have regardless of situation, if it's going to get you red carded and thrown out. That's getting a major penalty for a play that doesn't have that much direct significance on the outcome of a game. No good.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Carl, he looked like he was in over his head. Donovan would at least have been able to come in during the second half. I don't think he needed to be a 90 minute guy to make the roster.

Whatever man. It's very clear that physical conditioning and speed has been made top priority for this program. He's not on the roster, I'm past it.

 

[Husky25]

Ha - yeah, probably right. My point was that with my limited knowledge of soccer, which is improving dramatically, to the point where I probably won't even think (or write that anymore) and I don't mind saying so - I still think that any problems we're having with defending that seem to be the major concern for this team by most people - are far outweighed by potential mental mistakes symptomatic like that which could be incredibly costly in a world cup game, and that actually worries me about our chances of success in ways that I wasn't concerned about before.

The handball in goal - If that player is going to be ejected from a world cup game and miss the next game given the official calls it. I'd still want a player to do it in a world cup game. My soccer belief I've established now, is that you stop that ball no matter what - in a meaningful game. In a meaningless game? A friendly? To me - it's a clear mental mistake.

The handball on the sideline? That's a mental error you can't have regardless of situation, if it's going to get you red carded and thrown out. That's getting a major penalty for a play that doesn't have that much direct significance on the outcome of a game. No good.

Given your self admitted limited knowledge, I'm not sure if you know that a Red Card not only forces the player out of the current and next game, but also forces the side to play shorthanded for the remainder of the current match. Not only that but 2 yellows = red and the yellows carry over from game to game.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Given your self admitted limited knowledge, I'm not sure if you know that a Red Card not only forces the player out of the current and next game, but also forces the side to play shorthanded for the remainder of the current match. Not only that but 2 yellows = red and the yellows carry over from game to game.

I knew red cards suck, and yellow cards add up to ejections, but other than that, I cannot tell you very much as to how you would get one or the other. I knew red cards got you ejected, but not that you couldn't substitute in, and didn't know that it got you out of the next game too. Red cards really suck.

Question(s): Do you carry yellow cards into the World Cup or does everyone start at zero? If you do carry them - who on the roster has them?

Would the hand ball on the sideline to keep the ball in play have been a red card offense if called?

I understand that a handball by a player stopping a sure goal is a red card - that makes sense, and the penalty fits - I guess - I don't like that not being able to sub back in, in the same game. It doesn't seem to me that the other handball would have been a red. A red there is completely unacceptable. If I'm right, and the one on the sideline would have been a yellow - it was still a mistake IMO and symptom of discipline problem - worrisome - unless the player knew that the potential yellow card wouldn't be carried into the WC.

 

[ZooCougar]

Too much to respond to at once. On the "handling at the goal". I would think that it's better for a player to get the red card and ejection in World Cup competition by stopping the ball at the goal line, rather than letting it in, for the exact situation you described. If you don't pick up the ball, or stop it with your hand, it's a goal. If you do, you got consequences, but at least you have a chance to stop it on the penalty kick. Got to have a lot of situational smarts though. Wouldn't make sense to get a red card and miss a game, if you are playing a friendly.

On that note, it's probably something that our U.S. player shouldn't have done? Would he have to miss the next game even though it's a friendly? Teaching moment - and on that note - the announcers said that the hand ball by our player that slapped the ball back in bounds would have also been a red card in the World Cup? That's a mental discipline problem. I actually loved the play, that he got away with it - but didn't realize that it could be penalized like that. Mental discipline. Full effort from start to finish. These things are important to winning football (mine or soccer).

As for the strategy, speed, stuff. Makes a whole lot of sense. I guess it's just how I'm wired though, even if it is a skill/talent issue for the U.S.A. that would seem to favor an attacking style - as you say, not having the skill/talent to defend otherwise? I think I would still prefer an attacking style over defending, even if the skill/talent level were not an issue.

The objective, is to score more goals than your opponent.

In this case, the handball and the subsequent PK was a result of Chandler putting the team in a precarious position. At that point the handball is a damned if you do, damned if don't sort of thing, whether it was deliberate or not. He was standing in the right place, and one would hope that any shot would hit him anywhere but his hands and arms.

 

[ZooCougar]

I knew red cards suck, and yellow cards add up to ejections, but other than that, I cannot tell you very much as to how you would get one or the other. I knew red cards got you ejected, but not that you couldn't substitute in, and didn't know that it got you out of the next game too. Red cards really suck.

Question(s): Do you carry yellow cards into the World Cup or does everyone start at zero? If you do carry them - who on the roster has them?

Would the hand ball on the sideline to keep the ball in play have been a red card offense if called?

I understand that a handball by a player stopping a sure goal is a red card - that makes sense, and the penalty fits - I guess - I don't like that not being able to sub back in, in the same game. It doesn't seem to me that the other handball would have been a red. A red there is completely unacceptable. If I'm right, and the one on the sideline would have been a yellow - it was still a mistake IMO and symptom of discipline problem - worrisome - unless the player knew that the potential yellow card wouldn't be carried into the WC.

They start at zero. If you get two cards in one game, you're out. And you're out for the next game. One red card and you're out of the game and the next. One yellow card in one game and one in the next means you sit the third game.

 

[ZooCougar]

Whatever man. It's very clear that physical conditioning and speed has been made top priority for this program. He's not on the roster, I'm past it.

Yeah, Like I said, putting him on the roster locks him up for the future. I have my doubts that he will even see the field in Brazil.

 

[Carl Spackler]

They start at zero. If you get two cards in one game, you're out. And you're out for the next game. One red card and you're out of the game and the next. One yellow card in one game and one in the next means you sit the third game.

In that case, and I'm right, that the sideline handball would have been yellow and not red - IF called - I'd be asking Davis - it was Brad Davis on the sideline right?, if he knew the risks when he used his hands to keep the ball in play for that breakaway down the sideline. If he did - GREAT PLAY!!! If not - that's an apparently important player making a stupid mistake.

Stupid mistakes aren't allowed!

 

[ZooCougar]

In that case, and I'm right, that the sideline handball would have been yellow and not red - IF called - I'd be asking Davis - it was Brad Davis on the sideline right?, if he knew the risks when he used his hands to keep the ball in play for that breakaway down the sideline. If he did - GREAT PLAY!!! If not - that's an apparently important player making a stupid mistake.

Stupid mistakes aren't allowed!

That type of infraction is an automatic red. And in the right situation, I would rather he block the ball by any means, and give the keeper a chance to stop the PK. It's still a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

 

[Husky25]

Would the hand ball on the sideline to keep the ball in play have been a red card offense if called?

The announcers reacted as if it was so blatant that it would have been a red card if the officials had seen it. I don't know how they didn't see it. The trajectory of the ball indicated that it was clearly going out of bounds unless on "outside force" (i.e. hand ball) kept it in.

 

[Carl Spackler]

That type of infraction is an automatic red. And in the right situation, I would rather he block the ball by any means, and give the keeper a chance to stop the PK. It's still a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

I get that - to me, if it's a world cup game, a world cup qualifier - you stop the ball, and deal with the consequences later. Other games? Or how about early in a world cup game/qualifier as opposed to late? Lots to debate, but got to be consistent - I'd stop the ball - every time in World Cup meaningful game.

The thing about not being able to sub in with red cards creates an additional dimension to being aware? Maybe early in a game, you don't do it - later you do? I don't know. Situational awareness and smarts.

Parcells used to preach - stupid players make stupid mistakes, and Bill Belichick has evolved his practice routines to practicing fundamentals but at the same time putting players in almost essentially all odd ball situational stuff, so that players know what to do automatically in any situation you can create, because they've practiced it.

I'm more interested in the sideline handball though, to keep the ball in play. That's not a red card - is it?

 

[Carl Spackler]

The announcers reacted as if it was so blatant that it would have been a red card if the officials had seen it. I don't know how they didn't see it. The trajectory of the ball indicated that it was clearly going out of bounds unless on "outside force" (i.e. hand ball) kept it in.

The replay showed he clearly smacked the ball with his hand in the air to get it back in bounds. I'm wondering if the risk in doing that, was worth it, and would love to know, although somebody would have to actually ask the player, if he knew the risks and realized it before he did it.

THe fact that the guy did it, in plain view of his coach and a only a few feet really away from the coach, tells me that he probably knew the situation and decided to do it anyway.

 

[Husky25]

I'm more interested in the sideline handball though, to keep the ball in play. That's not a red card - is it?

As I said, the announcers reacted as if it should have been.

 

[meyers7]

I LOVED that play, until the announcers said that it could have gotten him ejected or something in the World Cup. The fact that we had two such things happen in the same game, to me is much more of a problem than anything physically or tactically with defending. You can't be making mental mistakes that can get you thrown out of a World Cup game.

That's just me though.

Announcers were wrong on Davis' handling. It would probably get a YC for Unsporting Behavior, but can't get a RC.

There are 7 RC offenses:
Serious Foul Play - a foul (usually a tackle) that endangers(excessive force) an opponent
Violent Conduct - can be against opponent or anyone
Spitting at anyone
Denying Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity (Handling)
Denying Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity (Foul)
Using Offensive, Insulting or Abusive language (or gestures)
Receiving a second Yellow Card in the same match - this one catches a lot of players because they get an early YC and end up doing something dumb later, or vice-versa.

 

[SubbaBub]

Carl, he looked like he was in over his head. Donovan would at least have been able to come in during the second half. I don't think he needed to be a 90 minute guy to make the roster.

And it looks like none of those wing players are going full 90. Zusi being the lone possible exception. But, only if he does a better job covering John son's overlapping runs.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Announcers were wrong on Davis' handling. It would probably get a YC for Unsporting Behavior, but can't get a RC.

There are 7 RC offenses:
Serious Foul Play - a foul (usually a tackle) that endangers(excessive force) an opponent
Violent Conduct - can be against opponent or anyone
Spitting at anyone
Denying Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity (Handling)
Denying Obvious Goal Scoring Opportunity (Foul)
Using Offensive, Insulting or Abusive language (or gestures)
Receiving a second Yellow Card in the same match - this one catches a lot of players because they get an early YC and end up doing something dumb later, or vice-versa.

Most of these are judgement calls by the official. Soccer officiating might be one of the most critical of any sport.

As for the potential yellow card on the sideline - great play, not getting caught - IF the player was self-aware and knew that it wouldn't affect really anything if he got called, with no yellow cards carrying to WC play. The play did result in a scoring chance if I remember correctly. Pushing the envelope is fine w/ me. If it was a stupid mental mistake and that the player got lucky - NOT good.

Handling at the goal line? The substitution thing is a changer for me on thinking. If you could substitute the ejected player - it seems like a no-brainer to me to stop it every time, but being forced to play with only 10 players, makes the problem complex.

Anyhoo - it's becoming a fun game for me to watch.

 

[Husky25]

Parcells used to preach - stupid players make stupid mistakes, and Bill Belichick has evolved his practice routines to practicing fundamentals but at the same time putting players in almost essentially all odd ball situational stuff, so that players know what to do automatically in any situation you can create, because they've practiced it.

I read a quote from someone (Dolson or Stewart) on the Women's team during the Final 4 (2 of the 4 womens games I watched this year) where she said Coach Auriemma has them practice, not until they get a play right, but until they can't get it wrong.

It's Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth but..."In the UEFA Champions League, for instance, accumulating two yellow cards in a stage of the tournament will lead to a 1 game suspension. In the group stage players have often intentionally collected the second yellow card which will "strategically" reset their tally of yellow cards to zero for the knockout round, but this is considered unsportsmanlike."

 

[meyers7]

I read a quote from someone (Dolson or Stewart) on the Women's team during the Final 4 (2 of the 4 womens games I watched this year) where she said Coach Auriemma has them practice, not until they get a play right, but until they can't get it wrong.

It's Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth but..."In the UEFA Champions League, for instance, accumulating two yellow cards in a stage of the tournament will lead to a 1 game suspension. In the group stage players have often intentionally collected the second yellow card which will "strategically" reset their tally of yellow cards to zero for the knockout round, but this is considered unsportsmanlike."

Yea, you'll see that occasionally late in a game when it doesn't matter. They will kick the ball away or something simple like that to get an Unsporting Behavior YC. Keepers will sometimes getting a Delaying Restart YC, if they need to reset their YCs.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I read a quote from someone (Dolson or Stewart) on the Women's team during the Final 4 (2 of the 4 womens games I watched this year) where she said Coach Auriemma has them practice, not until they get a play right, but until they can't get it wrong.

It's Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth but..."In the UEFA Champions League, for instance, accumulating two yellow cards in a stage of the tournament will lead to a 1 game suspension. In the group stage players have often intentionally collected the second yellow card which will "strategically" reset their tally of yellow cards to zero for the knockout round, but this is considered unsportsmanlike."

My guess, would be the prior to every game, a decent coaching staff is going to make sure that every single player on the roster would be made very well aware of what their yellow card status is and what getting more means.

From that point on, it's up to the player's training to be able to understand the situations on the field, and what kinds or risks/benefits there are to plays made that would involve penalty if the official calls it.

I never really realized it until right now, but it sure looks like there are definitely situations where plays that would warrant a penalty (yellow commonly for sure - red, debateable) if called by the official, are plays that should be made on the field. Much like "giving fouls" in basketball.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Also from 2010, not only was the US goal disallowed against Slovenia somehow, just count how many US players were being held/tackled by Slovenia on this kick. Sadly, the Turkey game provided the US with some good experience for the 2014 Cup at keeping their heads on straight even when the Ref’s heads (but elbows were) are nowhere to be seen.

Just watched this. Is it possible that the U.S.A. national soccer team has a problem with referees internationally? Meanign is there a bias that exists? Just an honest question. From what I've read from the Arsenal logo guy today here, and what I've watched, heard and read - officiating in soccer might be one of the most grey area judgement type calls that officials can make in any sport.

Whatever it's worth, politics is huge in any human interaction, and having good repertoire with officials is a good thing. Not like you need to be bribing them like I understand Italians are prone to, but just to be on their good side. That's a good thing to do in any sport - be friendly with officials.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

They start at zero. If you get two cards in one game, you're out. And you're out for the next game. One red card and you're out of the game and the next. One yellow card in one game and one in the next means you sit the third game.

I believe after the Round Robin games (first 3), accumulated Yellow Cards are wiped out and everyone starts clean (unless suspended for a Red) for the knock-out games (Sweet 16).

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Just watched this. Is it possible that the U.S.A. national soccer team has a problem with referees internationally? Meanign is there a bias that exists? Just an honest question. From what I've read from the Arsenal logo guy today here, and what I've watched, heard and read - officiating in soccer might be one of the most grey area judgement type calls that officials can make in any sport.

Whatever it's worth, politics is huge in any human interaction, and having good repertoire with officials is a good thing. Not like you need to be bribing them like I understand Italians are prone to, but just to be on their good side. That's a good thing to do in any sport - be friendly with officials.

Anyone who has followed US Soccer for the last decade or two, can provide several pages of links on questionable calls against the US. Is it a conspiracy? The Slovenia call was horrible. But, the Torsten Frings’ handball and some out of this world play from Germany’s keeper Kahn, who kept Germany in the game, preserved their 1-0 win over the US in the 2002 Quarterfinal in S Korea was more painful. Even more so as if the US had beaten Germany (they had major momentum and mojo at that point in the match), the US would have played S Korea (who the US tied earlier in Group play) in the semis. That was a winnable game. Could have the US beaten Brazil in the final. Who knows; but, it would have been fun.




http://theshinguardian.com/2012/06/20/world-cup-2002-germany-1-usa-0-the-ten-year-reunion/

The 2010 Cup overall was horrible with the US England, Ghana, and Mexico all victims of some very suspicious calls. The missed goal for England at least made FIFA finally look at goal line technology due to serious financial threats from English football. That cup was capped by a street fight between Spain and the Netherlands who played a bit of soccer in between 13 cards. 2006 of course has the Zindane head-butt that overshadowed both Italy’s ability to dive at the slightest touch and Australia getting hosed by the refs in several games.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Sounds like more than any sport, it's a good idea to keep the officials on your good side. Soccer field is really big and there is only one guy out there right?

There is no replay in soccer either right? That's absolutely amazing.