On the "need" for big (ie. tall) post players

[EricLA]

I was going to put this in the "recruiting" thread, but it's not discussing any specific recruits, and more a theoretical rambling on my part...

A couple of thoughts FWIW. A lot of people (myself included at times) lament that we don't have, or seem to recruit, a big 6'5" elite true center. Well a couple of things.
First, Boston as we know, is the most elite of all centers in the country. But put her on a lesser team without as much talent at every other position, and it wouldn't really be a problem for UCONN. WHAT you say??

Included in the top 10 centers last season (Boston and Ono on the list of course) were Mackenzie Holmes of Indiana and Elissas Cunane for NC State (Cunane was "rated" higher in the top 10 centers for last season).

When UCONN faced off against Indiana, Holmes had 12 points and 6 boards. Their other forward, 6'3" Gulbe, had 7 and 5. On the other hand, Ono had 10/14 while Edwards had 9/10. Dorka played 3 minutes.

Vs. NC State, it was the opposite. Forwards Cunane/Jones had 18/9 and 12/9 respectively. It was a 2 OT game. ONO and Edwards had 6/7 and 10/6 respectively. 18 boards vs. 13 for us. Dorka played 3 minutes. But in this game our guards carried us with Paige, Azzi and Christyn scoring 67 between the trio. So we overcame the deficiency in our post production with great guard play.

Vs. SC, we were torched by Henderson (26 points) but the duo of Boston/Saxton didn't demolish our post players in production, with the exception of rebounds. 10 offensive boards for SC. Ono/Edwards had 4/2 and 8/2. Boston/Saxton had 11/16 and 6/5. Not devastating in scoring, but of course killed us on the boards. The problem in that game wasn't our post players, but rather the fact that Azzi and Christyn scored a combined 5 points.

Anyway my point is that if you look at the skill and talent we have in the post - right now and incoming - Dorka, Liya, Amari, Ice, Ayanna, and hopefully Aubrey, that's enough to hold our own even against SC. If Ducharme is our 3rd starter at the "guard" spot, then she and Azzi can't chuck up 5 points in a big game and expect to win. We have to do better at rebounding, but this is Boston's last season, and there are no elite centers coming up that are at her level (Betts is way unproven. Cunningham is only 1" taller than Ice and no better).

I would argue that Ice is already elite (for her age) as a big body in the post. Ayanna, at 6'3" (or maybe 6'2") is an uber-elite athlete. She will GET AFTER rebounds. Aaliyah is a beast, Dorka can be, and Amari - well the jury is out on her.

I always want quality bigs. but aside from Boston and maybe Betts, I'm not sure there are any game changers out there. Griner only won 1 NC. We have enough skill and size to win. But a lot depends on how much Amari improves and how much Ice and Ayanna can give us as freshmen. Also we need to be healthy. Good grief, even over the summer, we still hear reports that several players won't be 100% till closer to the start of the season.

I don't doubt that some will be emphatic that we need more quality "size". But 1) it hardly exists and 2) I'm not sure we don't already have that. Thoughts?

 

[baggerbob]

I was going to put this in the "recruiting" thread, but it's not discussing any specific recruits, and more a theoretical rambling on my part...

A couple of thoughts FWIW. A lot of people (myself included at times) lament that we don't have, or seem to recruit, a big 6'5" elite true center. Well a couple of things.
First, Boston as we know, is the most elite of all centers in the country. But put her on a lesser team without as much talent at every other position, and it wouldn't really be a problem for UCONN. WHAT you say??

Included in the top 10 centers last season (Boston and Ono on the list of course) were Mackenzie Holmes of Indiana and Elissas Cunane for NC State (Cunane was "rated" higher in the top 10 centers for last season).

When UCONN faced off against Indiana, Holmes had 12 points and 6 boards. Their other forward, 6'3" Gulbe, had 7 and 5. On the other hand, Ono had 10/14 while Edwards had 9/10. Dorka played 3 minutes.

Vs. NC State, it was the opposite. Forwards Cunane/Jones had 18/9 and 12/9 respectively. It was a 2 OT game. ONO and Edwards had 6/7 and 10/6 respectively. 18 boards vs. 13 for us. Dorka played 3 minutes. But in this game our guards carried us with Paige, Azzi and Christyn scoring 67 between the trio. So we overcame the deficiency in our post production with great guard play.

Vs. SC, we were torched by Henderson (26 points) but the duo of Boston/Saxton didn't demolish our post players in production, with the exception of rebounds. 10 offensive boards for SC. Ono/Edwards had 4/2 and 8/2. Boston/Saxton had 11/16 and 6/5. Not devastating in scoring, but of course killed us on the boards. The problem in that game wasn't our post players, but rather the fact that Azzi and Christyn scored a combined 5 points.

Anyway my point is that if you look at the skill and talent we have in the post - right now and incoming - Dorka, Liya, Amari, Ice, Ayanna, and hopefully Aubrey, that's enough to hold our own even against SC. If Ducharme is our 3rd starter at the "guard" spot, then she and Azzi can't chuck up 5 points in a big game and expect to win. We have to do better at rebounding, but this is Boston's last season, and there are no elite centers coming up that are at her level (Betts is way unproven. Cunningham is only 1" taller than Ice and no better).

I would argue that Ice is already elite (for her age) as a big body in the post. Ayanna, at 6'3" (or maybe 6'2") is an uber-elite athlete. She will GET AFTER rebounds. Aaliyah is a beast, Dorka can be, and Amari - well the jury is out on her.

I always want quality bigs. but aside from Boston and maybe Betts, I'm not sure there are any game changers out there. Griner only won 1 NC. We have enough skill and size to win. But a lot depends on how much Amari improves and how much Ice and Ayanna can give us as freshmen. Also we need to be healthy. Good grief, even over the summer, we still hear reports that several players won't be 100% till closer to the start of the season.

I don't doubt that some will be emphatic that we need more quality "size". But 1) it hardly exists and 2) I'm not sure we don't already have that. Thoughts?

Griner has also only won 1 WNBA title even with Dee on the team. Sue has won more WNBA titles in that time then either of them.

 

[victor64]

Great post as usual.

To me, UCONN bigs need to rebound, defend, be a decent foul shooter and stay out of foul trouble. With the shooters in the program, scoring is an added bonus. Geno likes to run high post sets with a big but certainly that wouldn't have to be a requirement.

Piath must not have been the answer and the jury is still out on Amari. The five best athlete look that some teams are using may become something that UCONN uses in the future.

 

[dtbtbtb]

I think that more then a tall post (UConn had 4 6'5 players last season), UConn needs a rebounding machine (i.e. Morrow from DePaul)...I hope Yana is that kind of player

 

[Beemer]

Lack of rebounding KILLED the Huskies in the championship game. Just killed them..

However I don't think it is enough to be tall & athletic, I think it requires courage & determination too - a player has to be willing to go underneath the basket knowing she's going to get hammered every single time. IMO to a certain extent you can overcome the lack of the former with the latter, maybe not all of the time though.

Too bad UConn can't just clone Jamelle Elliott, that would solve their rebound woes in a hurry lol

 

[Bone Dog]

I agree mostly with your assessment, @EricLA. I also think we have a lot of talent at the 5/4 for the next couple years. But we do have to think of the future, too. I’m not confident Del Rosario is any more of an answer than Cunningham, and Ice has outplayed both of them already.

I was thinking about how big kids develop and ran across a video of the 2019 Bio Steel All Canadian game (think McDonalds All American game). Aaliyah Edwards played in it the spring of her junior year and it’s really interesting to see her then. Already committed to UConn. She was 6’2” and lanky, with a quick step, rather like Cassandre Prosper or Qadence Samuels. When she was on the floor, she was like a point-forward, often brought the ball up the court, shot threes, drove the lane, dished out assists, etc. Her handle was okay, and she looked for her shot all the time. She had the typical skills we tout in potential 3s.

Fast forward a year and she’d grown an inch and gotten a lot stronger. No longer a skinny kid, she was now an impressive 4/5 and filled that role effectively the next two years. None of us would mistake her now for a quick 3 or imagine her in such a role. But Geno must have expected this all along.

Now, try to imagine it from Aaliyah’s perspective: she came to UConn and the coaches told her she wouldn’t be playing what she was used to, that she’d be restricted to the hi/Lo post, she’d have to develop post moves, and the occasional midrange jumper, etc. That must have been a bit of a shock to her, and maybe a hard sell for Geno and CD.

My ability to project where in the floor some of these hs kids will end up at a D1 school is really limited. Yeah, Ice or Betts or Rosario may be easy to figure out. But beyond that I’m not confident at all. Take Ayanna, for example. She’s way bigger and stronger than Aaliyah was at a comparable moment. I’m not saying she’s gonna grow 2 inches. But she already knows how to operate in the post as well as on the wing. Same with Ice. They’ll have an easier time acclimating to their roles at UConn than Aaliyah did.

I don’t really have a point with all this besides that Geno understands these kids so much better than I do, or any of us.

 

[Bigboote]

I think that more then a tall post (UConn had 4 6'5 players last season), UConn needs a rebounding machine (i.e. Morrow from DePaul)...I hope Yana is that kind of player

Agreed. I was gonna say, if UConn had 5-11 Mir McLean in for ten minutes, I bet UConn wouldn't have been outrebounded 2:1 during those 10 minutes. I'd say the same about Aubrey Griffin.

5-11 Anriel Howard was among the top 2 or 3 rebounders nationally for most of her college years. Size is a factor, but desire is a bigger factor.

 

[PacoSwede]

Agreed. I was gonna say, if UConn had 5-11 Mir McLean in for ten minutes, I bet UConn wouldn't have been outrebounded 2:1 during those 10 minutes. I'd say the same about Aubrey Griffin.

5-11 Anriel Howard was among the top 2 or 3 rebounders nationally for most of her college years. Size is a factor, but desire is a bigger factor.

indeed
and being damned good at boxing out will do wonders too

 

[DEpup]

I'm sorry but Mir was not as effective as the rose colored glasses so many of you have... yeah maybe she rebounded but what did she do with it? Not kick it out... She would just go back up with a low percent awkward shot at a big or travel.. she was also a liability on defense with all the fouls. Aubrey is great for periods of time but you still need a big when the other team is good and has a good big.

in my viewing years, only Tuck at her under size 6' 2" for a 5 could defend bigs as well as score.. I still love how she could just shut Coates in particular down.

 

[Cuango]

I was going to put this in the "recruiting" thread, but it's not discussing any specific recruits, and more a theoretical rambling on my part...

A couple of thoughts FWIW. A lot of people (myself included at times) lament that we don't have, or seem to recruit, a big 6'5" elite true center. Well a couple of things.
First, Boston as we know, is the most elite of all centers in the country. But put her on a lesser team without as much talent at every other position, and it wouldn't really be a problem for UCONN. WHAT you say??

Included in the top 10 centers last season (Boston and Ono on the list of course) were Mackenzie Holmes of Indiana and Elissas Cunane for NC State (Cunane was "rated" higher in the top 10 centers for last season).

When UCONN faced off against Indiana, Holmes had 12 points and 6 boards. Their other forward, 6'3" Gulbe, had 7 and 5. On the other hand, Ono had 10/14 while Edwards had 9/10. Dorka played 3 minutes.

Vs. NC State, it was the opposite. Forwards Cunane/Jones had 18/9 and 12/9 respectively. It was a 2 OT game. ONO and Edwards had 6/7 and 10/6 respectively. 18 boards vs. 13 for us. Dorka played 3 minutes. But in this game our guards carried us with Paige, Azzi and Christyn scoring 67 between the trio. So we overcame the deficiency in our post production with great guard play.

Vs. SC, we were torched by Henderson (26 points) but the duo of Boston/Saxton didn't demolish our post players in production, with the exception of rebounds. 10 offensive boards for SC. Ono/Edwards had 4/2 and 8/2. Boston/Saxton had 11/16 and 6/5. Not devastating in scoring, but of course killed us on the boards. The problem in that game wasn't our post players, but rather the fact that Azzi and Christyn scored a combined 5 points.

Anyway my point is that if you look at the skill and talent we have in the post - right now and incoming - Dorka, Liya, Amari, Ice, Ayanna, and hopefully Aubrey, that's enough to hold our own even against SC. If Ducharme is our 3rd starter at the "guard" spot, then she and Azzi can't chuck up 5 points in a big game and expect to win. We have to do better at rebounding, but this is Boston's last season, and there are no elite centers coming up that are at her level (Betts is way unproven. Cunningham is only 1" taller than Ice and no better).

I would argue that Ice is already elite (for her age) as a big body in the post. Ayanna, at 6'3" (or maybe 6'2") is an uber-elite athlete. She will GET AFTER rebounds. Aaliyah is a beast, Dorka can be, and Amari - well the jury is out on her.

I always want quality bigs. but aside from Boston and maybe Betts, I'm not sure there are any game changers out there. Griner only won 1 NC. We have enough skill and size to win. But a lot depends on how much Amari improves and how much Ice and Ayanna can give us as freshmen. Also we need to be healthy. Good grief, even over the summer, we still hear reports that several players won't be 100% till closer to the start of the season.

I don't doubt that some will be emphatic that we need more quality "size". But 1) it hardly exists and 2) I'm not sure we don't already have that. Thoughts?

Great post!

 

[DEpup]

And Tuck could handle Wilson too... I hit post too quickly.

 

[Bone Dog]

I loved the way Morgan played, too. But let’s not forget that she had Stewie playing next to her, as well as Steph for s time. A 6’2” post has an easier time dominating taller players if a 7-footer has her back.

 

[Charliebball]

We really won't know how good UConn's front court is until they play another big, athletic team next season.........I'm pretty confident
they will dominate teams in conference, it's the out of conference games that will tell the tale.......

 

[Viet Vet]

Lack of rebounding KILLED the Huskies in the championship game. Just killed them..

However I don't think it is enough to be tall & athletic, I think it requires courage & determination too - a player has to be willing to go underneath the basket knowing she's going to get hammered every single time. IMO to a certain extent you can overcome the lack of the former with the latter, maybe not all of the time though.

Too bad UConn can't just clone Jamelle Elliott, that would solve their rebound woes in a hurry lol

Bingo on Jamelle! While certainly not close to UConn's all-time best players, she'll always be on my roster because of her warrior presence. Loved her from the moment I saw her.

I equate her to Kevin Freeman on the men's side.

 

[baggerbob]

And Tuck could handle Wilson too... I hit post too quickly.

That 2016 team had a 7 that could beat anyone. Stewie, Tuck, Collier, KLS, Nurse, who was as tough as anyone, Gabby, and Moriah.

 

[ctchamps]

USC’s post players forced our guards to help out our post players on defense giving Henderson the opportunity to take wide open shots.

Our post players were neutralized much better by their post players allowing their guards to tightly guard our perimeter players.

The discrepancy from the perimeter was directly related to the advantage of their post players. The question mark for me is how much of this superiority would have existed with a healthy ONO.

 

[Carnac]

I was going to put this in the "recruiting" thread, but it's not discussing any specific recruits, and more a theoretical rambling on my part...

A couple of thoughts FWIW. A lot of people (myself included at times) lament that we don't have, or seem to recruit, a big 6'5" elite true center. Well a couple of things.
First, Boston as we know, is the most elite of all centers in the country. But put her on a lesser team without as much talent at every other position, and it wouldn't really be a problem for UCONN. WHAT you say??

Included in the top 10 centers last season (Boston and Ono on the list of course) were Mackenzie Holmes of Indiana and Elissas Cunane for NC State (Cunane was "rated" higher in the top 10 centers for last season).

When UCONN faced off against Indiana, Holmes had 12 points and 6 boards. Their other forward, 6'3" Gulbe, had 7 and 5. On the other hand, Ono had 10/14 while Edwards had 9/10. Dorka played 3 minutes.

Vs. NC State, it was the opposite. Forwards Cunane/Jones had 18/9 and 12/9 respectively. It was a 2 OT game. ONO and Edwards had 6/7 and 10/6 respectively. 18 boards vs. 13 for us. Dorka played 3 minutes. But in this game our guards carried us with Paige, Azzi and Christyn scoring 67 between the trio. So we overcame the deficiency in our post production with great guard play.

Vs. SC, we were torched by Henderson (26 points) but the duo of Boston/Saxton didn't demolish our post players in production, with the exception of rebounds. 10 offensive boards for SC. Ono/Edwards had 4/2 and 8/2. Boston/Saxton had 11/16 and 6/5. Not devastating in scoring, but of course killed us on the boards. The problem in that game wasn't our post players, but rather the fact that Azzi and Christyn scored a combined 5 points.

Anyway my point is that if you look at the skill and talent we have in the post - right now and incoming - Dorka, Liya, Amari, Ice, Ayanna, and hopefully Aubrey, that's enough to hold our own even against SC. If Ducharme is our 3rd starter at the "guard" spot, then she and Azzi can't chuck up 5 points in a big game and expect to win. We have to do better at rebounding, but this is Boston's last season, and there are no elite centers coming up that are at her level (Betts is way unproven. Cunningham is only 1" taller than Ice and no better).

I would argue that Ice is already elite (for her age) as a big body in the post. Ayanna, at 6'3" (or maybe 6'2") is an uber-elite athlete. She will GET AFTER rebounds. Aaliyah is a beast, Dorka can be, and Amari - well the jury is out on her.

I always want quality bigs. but aside from Boston and maybe Betts, I'm not sure there are any game changers out there. Griner only won 1 NC. We have enough skill and size to win. But a lot depends on how much Amari improves and how much Ice and Ayanna can give us as freshmen. Also we need to be healthy. Good grief, even over the summer, we still hear reports that several players won't be 100% till closer to the start of the season.

I don't doubt that some will be emphatic that we need more quality "size". But 1) it hardly exists and 2) I'm not sure we don't already have that. Thoughts?

Eric, I’m already on my 2nd glass of the Kool-Aid you’re drinking. We are on the same page on this. I commented last week the same exact thing you are, except you went into more detail (which was interesting reading). A great “think” piece sir.!!

Realizing that Geno was not going to round out the roster with 12 players, I stepped back and took an honest and critical look (over my glasses) at this team as presently constituted. I feel exactly the same in that we have the players, talent and firepower to beat any team, including South Carolina for all the reasons you mentioned. Anyone else care for a glass?

 

[Carnac]

Bingo on Jamelle! While certainly not close to UConn's all-time best players, she'll always be on my roster because of her warrior presence. Loved her from the moment I saw her.

I equate her to Kevin Freeman on the men's side.

Just think of the possibilities if the medical staff could give Amari a “blood transfusion” from Jemelle.

 

[HopJim]

I'm sorry but Mir was not as effective as the rose colored glasses so many of you have... yeah maybe she rebounded but what did she do with it? Not kick it out... She would just go back up with a low percent awkward shot at a big or travel.. she was also a liability on defense with all the fouls. Aubrey is great for periods of time but you still need a big when the other team is good and has a good big.

in my viewing years, only Tuck at her under size 6' 2" for a 5 could defend bigs as well as score.. I still love how she could just shut Coates in particular down.

While she played multiple positions, Gabby was the 5 on most of her UConn teams and did well defending, rebounding, and getting give and go and mid range points. Would have loved to have more height on these teams but at 5'11", she did well.

 

[DEpup]

While she played multiple positions, Gabby was the 5 on most of her UConn teams and did well defending, rebounding, and getting give and go and mid range points. Would have loved to have more height on these teams but at 5'11", she did well.

As much as I like Gabby, no national titles with her starting at the 5... She was more than enough for every game until you get to the big ones....

 

[EricLA]

Eric, I’m already on my 2nd glass of the Kool-Aid you’re drinking. We are on the same page on this. I commented last week the same exact thing you are, except you went into more detail (which was interesting reading). A great “think” piece sir.!!

Realizing that Geno was not going to round out the roster with 12 players, I stepped back and took an honest and critical look (over my glasses) at this team as presently constituted. I feel exactly the same in that we have the players, talent and firepower to beat any team, including South Carolina for all the reasons you mentioned. Anyone else care for a glass?

 

[CocoHusky]

I'm sorry but Mir was not as effective as the rose colored glasses so many of you have... yeah maybe she rebounded but what did she do with it? Not kick it out... She would just go back up with a low percent awkward shot at a big or travel.. she was also a liability on defense with all the fouls. Aubrey is great for periods of time but you still need a big when the other team is good and has a good big.

in my viewing years, only Tuck at her under size 6' 2" for a 5 could defend bigs as well as score.. I still love how she could just shut Coates in particular down.

Since Morgan Tuck : Gabby Williams at 5'11" played the 5 position at AA level and was a capable scorer.
Napheesa Collier at 6'2" )( allegedly) played the 5 position for UCONN at an AA level & and was a very capable scorer.
Megan Walker at 6'1' played the 4 position for UCONN at an AA level was a very capable scorer.

 

[CocoHusky]

Eric, I’m already on my 2nd glass of the Kool-Aid you’re drinking. We are on the same page on this. I commented last week the same exact thing you are, except you went into more detail (which was interesting reading). A great “think” piece sir.!!
Realizing that Geno was not going to round out the roster with 12 players, I stepped back and took an honest and critical look (over my glasses) at this team as presently constituted. I feel exactly the same in that we have the players, talent and firepower to beat any team, including South Carolina for all the reasons you mentioned. Anyone else care for a glass?

 

[baggerbob]

As much as I like Gabby, no national titles with her starting at the 5... She was more than enough for every game until you get to the big ones....

Her first 2 years she had Stewie and Tuck.

 

[JordyG]

Vs. SC, we were torched by Henderson (26 points) but the duo of Boston/Saxton didn't demolish our post players in production, with the exception of rebounds.

Again I agree. However, a major post presence forces the defense to collapse inside giving shooters open shots. You just can't take away everything. Also because SC had so many offensive rebounds it opened up the perimeter even more, gave everyone more attempts at the basket, beat down the frontline, and tired the defense which had to cover their marks for extended periods. The longer you have to play defense, the more likely you'll make a mistake. But yes, an improved Amari and all that's incoming can close the gap UConn faced up front against bigger teams.