Olympic Team Announced

[CL82]

Oh yeah, you knew Candace had to say something before she's on the TV coverage and has to play nice.

Mmm, does she though?

 

[wolfe613]

dude, her sisters, coach, and those who know her well tweeted or said in interviews, that it was not due to her injury. Politics. Stunning Olympic snub of Nneka Ogwumike about basketball politics, not talent

not sure if I got this name right but Deborah Peters claiming Uconn bias and a lot of people might be basing off her article

 

[fang]

Mmm, does she though?

A little snark may leak out, but NBC always wants the Olympics to be all sunshine and lollipops, lest the bottom line takes a hit.

 

[CL82]

A little snark may leak out, but NBC always wants the Olympics to be all sunshine and lollipops, lest the bottom line takes a hit.

We shall see.

 

[UConnCat]

 

[Vowelguy]

I have a different take on this. USA Basketball is accountable. How? Results. Isn't that the ultimate in accountability for any organization? USA Basketball wins consistently and impressively on the world stage.

In a general sense I'm gonna disagree here. They could've selected my (deceased) grandmother and they'd still win gold. That doesnt make it right/fair.

And as someone in the corporate world, "results are all that matter" sounds a bit too close to the "our company has been successful so it doesnt matter that we dont have any women, Blacks, Hispanics, etc in lead positions."

I dont know enough about the Nneka situation or the merits of the other players to weigh on this particular matter, but I dont think winning a gold would mean that they did everything right.

 

[UConnCat]

In a general sense I'm gonna disagree here. They could've selected my (deceased) grandmother and they'd still win gold. That doesnt make it right/fair.

Absurd.

And as someone in the corporate world, "results are all that matter" sounds a bit too close to the "our company has been successful so it doesnt matter that we dont have any women, Blacks, Hispanics, etc in lead positions."

Right, which is why I made the next two statements: "The worst anyone says about USA Basketball is that there is politics (exists to some extent in every human endeavor) and that every 4 years it "snubs" a player." That's a far cry from engaging in the type discrimination you mention in your example. Has anyone said anything close to that about USA Basketball?

 

[The CDR-Ret]

If Maya Moore were still playing, there would be six Huskies on the team. That's half the team! Am I wrong?

You are NOT wrong, and she [Maya] would have been tremendous alongside Tina/Sylvia, Stewie/Wilson, Sue/Jewell, and DT for the majority of the minutes.

That would be like Dawn & Geno generally have used - a primarily eight person rotation until the game is well in hand, and this year's team should do it without Maya (hopefully) before half-time, if not in the first ten minutes against most teams.

 

[CocoHusky]

I have a different take on this. USA Basketball is accountable. How? Results. Isn't that the ultimate in accountability for any organization? USA Basketball wins consistently and impressively on the world stage. The worst anyone says about USA Basketball is that there is politics (exists to some extent in every human endeavor) and that every 4 years it "snubs" a player. Then, a few weeks later, USA Basketball proceeds to win gold in impressive fashion. At some point there will likely be another 2006 World Cup (Australia next year?) and all the Twitter naysayers will trace that loss back to UConn, Geno and the snubs. That's just the way it is. USA Basketball will regroup as it did after the 2006 loss and move on.

I don't see the value in having Carol Callan or anyone from USA Basketball address why one player is chosen over another. I also doubt the players want that decision-making aired publicly. Also, where do you draw the line? Is it just the latest "snub" that needs to be explained? Or should USA Basketball go down the list and explain why others didn't make the team? Who asks? The media? Should Carol Callan take questions on twitter? To what end? As was the case with Parker in 2016, discussion of Nneka will eventually fade and USA Basketball will move on to Tokyo. I say that not to minimize Nneka's disappointment but that's where the focus needs to be. Nneka can then decide whether she wants a future with USA Basketball starting with next year's World Cup.

If a player wants to know why she didn't make the team then she deserves to be told why by USA Basketball. If that players chooses to share that information publicly then that is her right.

Also, you say Catchings "was willing to take a lesser role" in 2016. I'm not sure where that comes from but I guarantee you Catchings was disappointed with how little she played in 2016.

I would be inclined to believe how the results was achieved is far more significant than the result itself for any organization and the principle of fairness is paramount in the how. A CEO who achieves record profits but does not treat his employees fairly and ethically is a common example. USA basketball has always had to make tough decisions about the selection of the national team. Silence, moving on or even a gold medal result does not serve USA basketball well. How is Neka supposed to decide if she wants a future with USA basketball next year if she does not know where she fell short this year? While it would be entirely impractical to hold a press conference to talk about everyone who didn't make the team it entirely practical to talk about the players that did and to address the selection process and thinking. Since the selection is made by committee there is no need to single anyone out, Carol Callan for example. What/who were some of the tougher decisions facing the committee? It appears that the committee decide to carry an extra guard vs a forward could you tell us what went into that thinking? The NCAA tournament selection committee routinely does this and tells you why in the opinion of the committee one team had a better resume and was worthy of selection and where another might have fallen short in competitive basketball terms such as strength of schedule, quality wins etc. Besides Parker and Neka there are also other non selections that merit explanation. Not that I have dog in this hunt as they are both ND but the selection or Jewel over Arike is also very curious. If we want to base it strictly on results in Arike two seasons in WNBA, Arike has twice exceeded Jewel best scoring WNBA season. Did Jewel get the nod over Arike because she will have 2 Seattle Storm teammates in Stewie and Sue on this Olympic team? Silence is what allows everyone to imagine their own explanations for the selection as I just did directly above. BTW I don't have to use my imagination as to why USA opted for an extra guard since two of the guards (expected starters) will be playing in their 5th Olympics.
I not looking forward to that point in the future you mention because I still scared by the 2004 Men's Olympic team. Prior to those Olympics this kind of thinking was pervasive. That thinking was, USA men were going to win gold. How could USA not win gold when the roster was loaded with future HoF players and a coach who had won both an NCAA and NBA championship as a head coach. The selection of these teams matter, the coach matters , more transparency by USA basketball is needed and matters very much.

 

[baggerbob]

I would be incline to believe how the results was achieved is far more significant than the result itself for any organization and the principle of fairness is paramount in the how. A CEO who achieves record profits but does not treat his employees fairly and ethically is a common example. USA basketball has always had to make tough decisions about the selection of the national team. Silence, moving on or even a gold medal result does not serve USA basketball well. How is Neka supposed to decide if she wants a future with USA basketball next year if she does not know where she fell short this year? While it would be entirely impractical to hold a press conference to talk about everyone who didn't make the team it entirely practical to talk about the players that did and to address the selection process and thinking. Since the selection is made by committee there is no need to single anyone out, Carol Callan for example. What/who were some of the tougher decisions facing the committee? It appears that the committee decide to carry an extra guard vs a forward could you tell us what went into that thinking? The NCAA tournament selection committee routinely does this and tells you why in the opinion of the committee one team had a better resume and was worthy of selection and where another might have fallen short in competitive basketball terms such as strength of schedule, quality wins etc. Besides Parker and Neka there are also other non selections that merit explanation. Not that I have dog in this hunt as they are both ND but the selection or Jewel over Arike is also very curious. If we want to base it strictly on results in Arike two seasons in WNBA, Arike has twice exceeded Jewel best scoring WNBA season. Did Jewel get the nod over Arike because she will have 2 Seattle Storm teammates in Stewie and Sue on this Olympic team? Silence is what allows everyone to imagine their own explanations for the selection as I just did directly above. BTW I don't have to use my imagination as to why USA opted for an extra guard since two of the guards (expected starters) will be playing in their 5th Olympics.
I not looking forward to that point in the future you mention because I still scared by the 2004 Men's Olympic team. Prior to those Olympics this kind of thinking was pervasive. That thinking was, USA men were going to win gold. How could USA not win gold when the roster was loaded with future HoF players and a coach who had won both an NCAA and NBA championship as a head coach. The selection of these teams matter, the coach matters , more transparency by USA basketball is needed and matters very much.

You shouldn't have used Loyd as an example, she was on the 2018 World Cup team, and played as many minutes as any of the starters.
She was a lock to be on the team as much as Stewie was.

 

[CocoHusky]

You shouldn't have used Loyd as an example, she was on the 2018 World Cup team, and played as many minutes as any of the starters.
She was a lock to be on the team as much as Stewie was.

Our (UCONN) Stewie? Jewel might have played more minutes but she didn't player better than Neka who was also on that 2018 World Cup team. In 2018 Arike was the darling of college basketball complete with appearances on Helen and Dancing with the Stars and she was also receiving praises from Kobe. It might have had something to do with Arike hitting those two buzzer beaters to secure ND a championship-something that Jewel had failed to do in 3 FF appearances. If you want to use the the Janet Jackson argument aka "what have you done for me lately": Arike lead WNBA in scoring last season Jewel was 14th. This WNBA season Arike is 5th & Jewel is 9th. Don't get me wrong, a strong performance on 2018 World cup team should definitely give you great consideration for 2021 Olympic team. I just don't think Jewel performance was strong enough to be consider a "lock" for selection and she not on Stewie's level.

 

[UcMiami]

I think there is a difference between what the USA basketball says publicly and their conversations with the pool players selected and not selected. I am pretty sure USA basketball had a long talk with Nneka as they reportedly did with Diggins-Smith when she was not selected to a roster and as I suspect they did with Parker.

Whether the athlete agrees/listens is not the responsibility of the committee.

People get upset when coaches call out team members for issues after a game and after a season and most coaches just keep their mouths shut in public and keep the criticism for the locker room or the office. Same for GMs and coaches on personnel decisions for pro teams.

He's a selfish SOB and I don't want him on my team isn't often heard when a 'star' get traded or cut - 'he is a great player and we are just moving in a different direction as a team' is the standard response.

 

[bbsamjj]

I think there is a difference between what the USA basketball says publicly and their conversations with the pool players selected and not selected. I am pretty sure USA basketball had a long talk with Nneka as they reportedly did with Diggins-Smith when she was not selected to a roster and as I suspect they did with Parker.

Whether the athlete agrees/listens is not the responsibility of the committee.

People get upset when coaches call out team members for issues after a game and after a season and most coaches just keep their mouths shut in public and keep the criticism for the locker room or the office. Same for GMs and coaches on personnel decisions for pro teams.

He's a selfish SOB and I don't want him on my team isn't often heard when a 'star' get traded or cut - 'he is a great player and we are just moving in a different direction as a team' is the standard response.

I think this issue that Chiney brought up on twitter (and Derek Fischer reiterated) is that if they did indeed have a long talk with Nneka, this would be the second/third time they've had the talk with her. And apparently the talk in the past wasn't "you're not good enough," it's...wait your turn, you're very important to us, we see a big future for you on the team. So to be told that, and to do everything right (win a WNBA MVP, be on the WNBA all defensive teams, and show up whenever USA calls and perform well) and STILL get left off definitely feels unfair...even if I understand it from a purely basketball perspective.

We'll never know exactly what conversations were had by Parker and USA basketball, but according to Candace, she felt blind-sighted. The most positive spin, which Voepel wrote about at the time, was: "Some will say it's strictly strategic: that the U.S. team somehow felt it had a surplus of what Parker does, and despite her being on the short list of "best in the world," she was the odd woman out."

 

[LwrcasefaN]

We can say it, but people in the selection process...and even reporters can't, but some players no matter how good they are...they aren't good teammates. I was a big Rhyne Howard fan her freshman year. I don't know what has happened to her since, but I wouldn't select her in a pickup game. Her attitude is just horrible! FOR ME...Candace is on this list. Jamelle Bailey.

 

[hoophuskee]

And apparently the talk in the past wasn't "you're not good enough," it's...wait your turn, you're very important to us, we see a big future for you on the team.

I am not arguing. And I want to add I don't follow the WNBA much - so to further that I am not arguing. . . But is that what they said in bold? Just curious how do you know this? I haven't read all the tweets and the links. So this was reported that this was said? Where? From an article? From a tweet?

This first part of your statement - when they said "wait your turn"- do you know what the basketball reasons were?

And the 2nd of "we see a big future for you"-- for someone that had to "wait their turn" in which she had to wait her turn for a reason - is it possible some others exceeded certain criteria they were looking for vs what Nneka brings?

So for a committee person or persons to say "we see a big future for you"-- how can that ever be said? If they didn't put Parker on way back -- how can anything ever be so guaranteed that your time will ever eventually come?

All I'm saying is that I would think there were was some defined basketball discussions with Nneka - much more than the broad comments you've made above that I highlighted. Those comments are so broad overall they don't have much/any basketball meaning.

 

[Zarathustra]

In a general sense I'm gonna disagree here. They could've selected my (deceased) grandmother and they'd still win gold. That doesnt make it right/fair.

And as someone in the corporate world, "results are all that matter" sounds a bit too close to the "our company has been successful so it doesnt matter that we dont have any women, Blacks, Hispanics, etc in lead positions."

I dont know enough about the Nneka situation or the merits of the other players to weigh on this particular matter, but I dont think winning a gold would mean that they did everything right.

But isn't this team ALL WOMEN, and mostly BLACK, and this is not "rec league" or anything like
"it not whether you win or lose, it how you play the game" or said differently : THE COMMITTEE
put together the " best team" based the their best judgment ( not perfect judgment ).
But I appreciate your skepticism, as the Philosopher George Santayana once quipped:
"Skepticism , like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily".

 

[bbsamjj]

We can say it, but people in the selection process...and even reporters can't, but some players no matter how good they are...they aren't good teammates. I was a big Rhyne Howard fan her freshman year. I don't know what has happened to her since, but I wouldn't select her in a pickup game. Her attitude is just horrible! FOR ME...Candace is on this list. Jamelle Bailey.

Well, USA basketball just selected her for the AmeriCup team and she led the team in minutes per game and points per game. She also had 18 assists to just 6 turnovers over the six games.

 

[bbsamjj]

I am not arguing. And I want to add I don't follow the WNBA much - so to further that I am not arguing. . . But is that what they said in bold? Just curious how do you know this? I haven't read all the tweets and the links. So this was reported that this was said? Where? From an article? From a tweet?

This first part of your statement - when they said "wait your turn"- do you know what the basketball reasons were?

And the 2nd of "we see a big future for you"-- for someone that had to "wait their turn" in which she had to wait her turn for a reason - is it possible some others exceeded certain criteria they were looking for vs what Nneka brings?

So for a committee person or persons to say "we see a big future for you"-- how can that ever be said? If they didn't put Parker on way back -- how can anything ever be so guaranteed that your time will ever eventually come?

All I'm saying is that I would think there were was some defined basketball discussions with Nneka - much more than the broad comments you've made above that I highlighted. Those comments are so broad overall they don't have much/any basketball meaning.

I'm making up a potential conversation above, but it's pretty close to what Chiney detailed on social media about what had been previously said to Nneka from USA basketball:

Derek Fisher said something similar: Fisher: Ogwumike's Olympics snubs 'a travesty'

"And the 2nd of "we see a big future for you"-- for someone that had to "wait their turn" in which she had to wait her turn for a reason - is it possible some others exceeded certain criteria they were looking for vs what Nneka brings? So for a committee person or persons to say "we see a big future for you"-- how can that ever be said? If they didn't put Parker on way back -- how can anything ever be so guaranteed that your time will ever eventually come?"
Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but in July 2019, Ogwumike was named as one of eight players who committed to participate in USA Basketball training and competition in 2019-20 rather than go overseas. The eight were essentially considered core players for the 2020 Olympics, although the Summer Games, of course, were postponed a year by the coronavirus pandemic. (as Derek Fisher mentioned, Nneka gave up more money overseas to become a core USA basketball player).

"is it possible some others exceeded certain criteria they were looking for vs what Nneka brings?"
For sure; Nneka has been a victim of a glut of great post players available to USA basketball, and her best pro seasons arguably coming in between Olympic selections. In 2016 she was WNBA MVP, but that happened after the Olympic selections were made. Here is her resume of all league WNBA picks:

• WNBA MVP (2016)
• All-WNBA First Team (2016)
• All-WNBA Second Team (2014, 2017, 2019)
• WNBA All-Defensive Team (2015, 2016, 2017, 2019)

"I would think there were was some defined basketball discussions with Nneka"
I would hope so, though who knows. It's hard to argue Nneka can prove anything else on a basketball court.

 

[Alydar]

1. Should players "step aside" to give others a chance? These people are professionals. This is how they earn their living. I'll speculate that being on the US Olympic team translates into more money from endorsements/advertising, etc. so those saying step aside are also asking those players to walk away from income. Is that fair?

2. Does money explain some players being/not being on the team? Who are the Olympic advertisers? Is Nike and other apparel/shoe manufacturers paying for ad space? And if they are writing large checks are they also promoting their players? I know many say that it's favoritism and personal dislike behind the scenes but it could also just be $$$ talking. It might be enlightening to see who is signed to each of the big sponsors.

 

[Plebe]

@UConnCat linked to this piece from an unrelated thread about the Indiana Fever, but it contains an even-handed analysis of the Nneka situation from a basketball perspective.

Scroll down to "Tokyo Rift":

WNBA Dissected: How do you solve a problem like the Fever? Plus more from 2021 Week 6

Examining how Indiana might turn things around, Nneka Ogwumike's omission from Team USA, the lack of WNBA trasparency and more from around the league

herhoopstats.substack.com

 

[UConnCat]

@UConnCat linked to this piece from an unrelated thread about the Indiana Fever, but it contains an even-handed analysis of the Nneka situation from a basketball perspective.

Scroll down to "Tokyo Rift":

WNBA Dissected: How do you solve a problem like the Fever? Plus more from 2021 Week 6

Examining how Indiana might turn things around, Nneka Ogwumike's omission from Team USA, the lack of WNBA trasparency and more from around the league

herhoopstats.substack.com

I almost posted it here this morning but deleted it thinking enough had been said on Nneka.

Cohen's take is consistent with mine that Nneka's game has slipped since 2018.

The problem that a lot of Ogwumike's defenders don't want to address is that purely on merit and recent performance, it's relatively easy to argue that she shouldn't be on the roster. Griner, Fowles, Charles, Stewart and Wilson have all been very good in recent times, and Collier already gives them insurance as an extra post if necessary. Nneka hasn't been bad, but her genuinely elite peak years were 2016-17 and she hasn't been quite the same force since. Even this year, before she got hurt, she didn't look like enough of a star to be the No. 1 piece on a contending team.

I've said the bigger snub was in 2016 when she was coming off a very good 2014 World Cup and was at the top of her game in the WNBA. The world of WBB was too focused on Parker to notice.

 

[hoophuskee]

I'm making up a potential conversation above, but it's pretty close to what Chiney detailed on social media about what had been previously said to Nneka from USA basketball:

Derek Fisher said something similar: Fisher: Ogwumike's Olympics snubs 'a travesty'

"And the 2nd of "we see a big future for you"-- for someone that had to "wait their turn" in which she had to wait her turn for a reason - is it possible some others exceeded certain criteria they were looking for vs what Nneka brings? So for a committee person or persons to say "we see a big future for you"-- how can that ever be said? If they didn't put Parker on way back -- how can anything ever be so guaranteed that your time will ever eventually come?"
Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but in July 2019, Ogwumike was named as one of eight players who committed to participate in USA Basketball training and competition in 2019-20 rather than go overseas. The eight were essentially considered core players for the 2020 Olympics, although the Summer Games, of course, were postponed a year by the coronavirus pandemic. (as Derek Fisher mentioned, Nneka gave up more money overseas to become a core USA basketball player).

"is it possible some others exceeded certain criteria they were looking for vs what Nneka brings?"
For sure; Nneka has been a victim of a glut of great post players available to USA basketball, and her best pro seasons arguably coming in between Olympic selections. In 2016 she was WNBA MVP, but that happened after the Olympic selections were made. Here is her resume of all league WNBA picks:

• WNBA MVP (2016)
• All-WNBA First Team (2016)
• All-WNBA Second Team (2014, 2017, 2019)
• WNBA All-Defensive Team (2015, 2016, 2017, 2019)

"I would think there were was some defined basketball discussions with Nneka"
I would hope so, though who knows. It's hard to argue Nneka can prove anything else on a basketball court.

Thank you.

I would love to hear more defined. What Chiney said is so broad.

I appreciate the rest of your post as well but it doesn't really define anything, or does it (please don't take my question in a harsh manner.)? In 2015 she wasn't all WNBA. My guess is that's what they looked at for 2016? But I understand- you said basically what Chiney said.

Though I can see this stinks as a fan not to know the real reasons. Would love to know what was it specifically including injury? It seems like we'll never know. They don't have to tell fans. But . . .

 

[hoophuskee]

I almost posted it here this morning but deleted it thinking enough had been said on Nneka.

Cohen's take is consistent with mine that Nneka's game has slipped since 2018.

The problem that a lot of Ogwumike's defenders don't want to address is that purely on merit and recent performance, it's relatively easy to argue that she shouldn't be on the roster. Griner, Fowles, Charles, Stewart and Wilson have all been very good in recent times, and Collier already gives them insurance as an extra post if necessary. Nneka hasn't been bad, but her genuinely elite peak years were 2016-17 and she hasn't been quite the same force since. Even this year, before she got hurt, she didn't look like enough of a star to be the No. 1 piece on a contending team.

I've said the bigger snub was in 2016 when she was coming off a very good 2014 World Cup and was at the top of her game in the WNBA. The world of WBB was too focused on Parker to notice.

Thank you.

That was my initial question if others have pushed ahead of her.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Well, USA basketball just selected her for the AmeriCup team and she led the team in minutes per game and points per game. She also had 18 assists to just 6 turnovers over the six games.

ok, does that mean she doesn't have an attitude? Some people will do anything to win. I'm just not that person.

 

[shiverz45]

ok, does that mean she doesn't have an attitude? Some people will do anything to win. I'm just not that person.

I don't know why people say Howard has an attitude and I am sure I have seen her play more times than you have. I always thought she had this quiet confidence about her. SC plays Kentucky twice every year and you can see how she interacts with the opposing players. I have seen a lot of SC players go over and hung her after games. I don't see them do it with other players.