Officiating During Texas NC St Game

[CocoHusky]

I was once told that the ultimate compliment to a referee was not being noticed by the fans, who come to watch the players play. This board and a couple of others prove that when the refs are noticed, it's not a good thing.

The officiating was horrendous on both sides. It also messed with the flow of the game and otherwise took away from a very good game. Blown calls are a part of the game but it should NEVER decide one like it did today.

This board is definitely conflicted when it comes to referees and I am certain what ever call that ref made he would be criticized. In all my years of watching basketball I look for two things from a referee decisiveness and consistency from beginning of the game to the end. These refs were both. Invisibility (not being noticed) is an impossible standard. Serious question for those advocating a different call- have you ever been to a game where the refs did a good job?

 

[Dillon77]

The bad calls went both ways in this game. They went more against NC State in the final 2-3 minutes.

Not counting the intentional foul by Mathurin with 0:07 left, the last 5 minutes had 6 fouls on NC State, 4 fouls on Texas.

But we should remember the completely inexplicable flagrant foul call on Sutton earlier in the 4th quarter, and the terrible call on Atkins that fouled her out as well. I'm not saying that NC State didn't get the worst of it, but it was hardly one-sided.

With you on that point of view, but the calls against the Wolfpack seemed worse at times because of when they were called and/or the nature of the call. The one that stuck with me the most was an NC State player was called for a foul when she was boxing out a Texas player (I think it was Holmes) on a free throw. Instead of getting the ball, Texas went back to the line, hit one FT grabbed a long rebound and scored on that. Given how often Holmes...a very aggressive presence on the offensive boards, charges and "lingers" over defensive rebounders, I thought the call was unnecessary at best, a stretch at the least.

 

[CocoHusky]

Trust me when I say this, this group of refs will be evaluated when the NCAA gets the game tape.

All NCAA tournament refs are evaluated to determine which ones will continue on to Regionals and FF & NC.

 

[tonehill68]

Went over to the NC State board and on twitter.. those refs might want to avoid going anywhere near the Research Triangle area

LOL, the Research Triangle area is harmless. Try either downtown Durham, Cary or Raleigh. BTW, I ref rec ball (youth, HS) in these areas

 

[CocoHusky]

With you on that point of view, but the calls against the Wolfpack seemed worse at times because of when they were called and/or the nature of the call. The one that stuck with me the most was an NC State player was called for a foul when she was boxing out a Texas player (I think it was Holmes) on a free throw. Instead of getting the ball, Texas went back to the line, hit one FT grabbed a long rebound and scored on that. Given how often Holmes...a very aggressive presence on the offensive boards, charges and "lingers" over defensive rebounders, I thought the call was unnecessary at best, a stretch at the least.

But..... But... that long rebound had nothing to do with the call right? Unless you are saying that NC state was so paralyzed by the call that they forget to rebound?

 

[tonehill68]

All NCAA tournament refs are evaluated to determine which ones will continue on to Regionals and FF & NC.

Yes that is true. I also meant to put that in my post.

 

[triaddukefan]

LOL, the Research Triangle area is harmless. Try either downtown Durham, Cary or Raleigh. BTW, I ref rec ball (youth, HS) in these areas

Well I meant the entire Metro area....... guess I should have said Raleigh to be more clear.... but I figure there are some Wolfpack fans out in the suburbs and surrounding cities as well On the other hand..... the refs could go to Chapel Hill and get rewarded with keys to the town or steak dinners or something like that

 

[UConnNick]

This is one of the things that I think happens better on the men's side (and isn't necessarily a function of officiating talent); in the end of a tight game, the official should err on the side of a no call, especially in an off ball situation.

Trust me, the late game officiating in close games on the men's side has been atrocious. The NCAA even had to publicly admit a blatant goaltending call was missed late in a very close Gonzaga - Northwestern game. The Gonzaga player stuck his arm and hand up through the rim from below to swat away a Northwestern shot. How do you not see that? Guess who won?

These zebras are dictating the outcome of games, and it invariably favors the higher seed.

 

[Aluminny69]

Tina Napier is regarded as one of the premier WCBB refs, as she does many of the top games. I'm betting she will be there at the final four. I don't know who was making the calls, but the other two refs were Sue Blauch and Jules Gallien. I thought Gallien made some questionable calls. I think Tina is one of those refs who feels they have to call every foul. I didn't think all the calls were against N.C. State, but since Texas had the deeper bench, they benefited. Too many calls for a tournament game. That may be the only thing that stops UConn.

 

[Dillon77]

This board is definitely conflicted when it comes to referees and I am certain what ever call that ref made he would be criticized. In all my years of watching basketball I look for two things from a referee decisiveness and consistency from beginning of the game to the end. These refs were both. Invisibility (not being noticed) is an impossible standard. Serious question for those advocating a different call- have you ever been to a game where the refs did a good job?

Hmmm. Lots of interesting points to ponder/react to here.

- They were decisive and perhaps you can make an argument that the calls were consistent from a point of view (in terms of contact), but I'm not so certain of that. Holmes seemed able to wander around the lane and extend herself over and around people on occasion, while others were called for trying to box out such efforts. Equal pressure each way would seem warranted.

- Have I ever been to a game where I was happy with the officiating? Are you speaking about any game? Or basketball? When I coached travel soccer I purposely got my refereeing license to I could lean the game from that angle. It taught me that refs were right even more than I thought and not to sweat the things that I can't control and/or won''t make a difference in most instances.

- In terms of hoops, I still play so I do look for consistency more than anything else. And, having said that, yeah...I've been to games where I have not noticed the refs. That's liking it.

 

[Plebe]

With you on that point of view, but the calls against the Wolfpack seemed worse at times because of when they were called and/or the nature of the call. The one that stuck with me the most was an NC State player was called for a foul when she was boxing out a Texas player (I think it was Holmes) on a free throw. Instead of getting the ball, Texas went back to the line, hit one FT grabbed a long rebound and scored on that. Given how often Holmes...a very aggressive presence on the offensive boards, charges and "lingers" over defensive rebounders, I thought the call was unnecessary at best, a stretch at the least.

Those borderline rebounding-over-the-back calls are always tough. She's allowed to jump straight up and she's even allowed to extend her arms forward as long as she's not pushing into the back of her opponent or contacting the opponent's arms to get the ball. From that rear camera angle it was impossible to tell whether that should've been a foul or not.

The rebounding call that I thought was ridiculous came at the end of that crazy sequence where Atkins got a steal and layup, then McCarty stole the inbound and threw back to Atkins while flying out of bounds, and then Atkins missed the short jumper, which she then rebounded but got called for her 5th foul. To me it looked like either a no-call situation or if anything the defender jumped backward into Atkins as she rebounded.

 

[Bigboote]

Being 10 miles from College Park, I only saw the last six minutes or so of the TX-NCState game. Yes there were a lot of fouls called, but bodies were flying everywhere. As Coco said, the players had to adjust, but there were still a lot of collisions. I thought the charge was a good call. It was at some point this weekend when one announcer said with respect to a charge/block call, "If someone hits the deck, you HAVE to call a foul." And there's no doubt that Holmes had position. The call on Spencer was horrible; that was just a good acting job by McCarty. The tip that was eventually reversed in State's favor was less obvious than the one at the end of the Miami-Gulf Coast game.

So while I agree that the end-of-game officiating was awful, I don't think it affected the outcome as much as Miami-FGCU.

 

[my2cents]

How good were the NC state guards>
Both calls at the end were bogus

 

[Plebe]

Being 10 miles from College Park, I only saw the last six minutes or so of the TX-NCState game. Yes there were a lot of fouls called, but bodies were flying everywhere. As Coco said, the players had to adjust, but there were still a lot of collisions. I thought the charge was a good call. It was at some point this weekend when one announcer said with respect to a charge/block call, "If someone hits the deck, you HAVE to call a foul." And there's no doubt that Holmes had position. The call on Spencer was horrible; that was just a good acting job by McCarty. The tip that was eventually reversed in State's favor was less obvious than the one at the end of the Miami-Gulf Coast game.

So while I agree that the end-of-game officiating was awful, I don't think it affected the outcome as much as Miami-FGCU.

I don't know who said that, but whoever it was, they are flat-out wrong. Referees are taught specifically that not every fall merits a call.

 

[Dillon77]

But..... But... that long rebound had nothing to do with the call right? Unless you are saying that NC state was so paralyzed by the call that they forget to rebound?

I'm not saying they were paralyzed. The whole sequence took place because a ticky tack -- and totally incorrect call in my humble opinion -- was made on a standard rebound of the initial free throw I referenced. NC State should've been going the other way. Instead, they had to get back in the lane, watch a first free throw go in, then have the long rebound took place. As to why Texas got it, Holmes is active on the boards and she got to the right place at the right time. Fair enough. But the whole scenario never should've taken place. When I see mistaken or missed calls take place in pick-up games, I'm usually a happy guy when the subsequent plays don't result in points. Didn't happen here.

 

[BroadwayVa]

27 fouls called against NC State; 25 against Texas. 29 free throws attempted by NC State. 23 free throws attempted by Texas.

But, don't let the facts get in the way of being a drama queen.

\

The facts are what the numbers don't show equity--it show numbers only. The equity was when and where actually BAD calls were made--don't ask me ask those who sat at court side and reported the game--and those doing the National color for all games---those last plays were, against NC state--were described as questionable--and not accurate. The total ref - ing in the game was suspect.
I actually like the Tx Longhorn team--like McCarty much--. My statement was about the refs---which did impact the Tx but the calls down the stretch were--to me biased. Fact---you apparently have --your own bias on facts.---
If you were insulted by my calling attention to bad ref-ing---get prepared to more insults---Yet you have no qualms about dispersing insults do you??

 

[BroadwayVa]

I don't know who said that, but whoever it was, they are flat-out wrong. Referees are taught specifically that not every fall merits a call.

If every flop was a forced call---we'd still be watching the ACC tournament . Smart refs usually that's usually--know the difference in a flop and an assisted flop or a straight out charge/block--still the toughest call to make. The, ND rule (my term) that allows players to jump into defenders is wrong and offensive to fans.

 

[southie]

Twice in the fourth quarter, NC State had the ball and missed a shot. Texas got the rebounds on the misses. NC State fouled the rebounder. Texas was in the bonus, and went to shoot free throws making all four, I believe. For a Texas team that was struggling to find any kind of offensive flow, NC State fouling Texas after their own missed shots was the worst thing they could have done as Texas was having trouble scoring baskets.

Here are the stats:

NC State vs Texas - DI Women's Basketball

NC State with 4 assists in the game.

 

[southie]

\

The facts are what the numbers don't show equity--it show numbers only. The equity was when and where actually BAD calls were made--don't ask me ask those who sat at court side and reported the game--and those doing the National color for all games---those last plays were, against NC state--were described as questionable--and not accurate. The total ref - ing in the game was suspect.
I actually like the Tx Longhorn team--like McCarty much--- My statement was about the refs---which did impact the Tx but the calls down the stretch were--to me biased. Fact---you apparently have --your own bias on facts.--
If you were insulted by my calling attention to bad ref-ing---get prepared to more insults---Yet you have no qualms about dispersing insults do you??

Well, you certainly had no problem stating that Texas owned these refs. Seriously?

The TV commentators also strongly disagreed with the flagrant foul called against Texas' Alecia Sutton. So, NC State made the two free throws. Sutton left the game with a leg injury (she had scored 10 points in the game). And, NC State also got possession of the ball and made a basket. That was a huge 4 points there. Gave NC State a 4 point lead with 6.5 minutes left in the game.

 

[tomcat]

Just like Miami game yesterday. We need alot more reviews and the coaches need to call for them. Yeah that means stop the game.

Just what I was thinking. This isn't the same crew that screwed FGCU, is it?

 

[Bayareahusky]

Just what I was thinking. This isn't the same crew that screwed FGCU, is it?

Thank you Tomcat.... yes just as today's NCState Texas game had some horrible calls, FGCU was jobbed with 2 terrible calls (or non calls) at end of their game....

The athletes and coaches work too hard for officiating in general to be at a substandard level in all of WCBB.... which it certainly is....

As I have said before it is no wonder Dee Kantner Lisa Mattingly and Brian Enterline get all the big games.... to trust to most of the other officials is problematic.... IMO

 

[1-of-the-6]

I may be wrong, but I don't believe that part of the criteria for a charge is that the defender needs to be knocked off her feet. A bigger Texas defender was in legal position in plenty of time. A smaller NC State player bowled into her and stopped as if hitting a wall. She initiated A LOT of contact. That sure looked like a charge to me.

I have to say, that when two teams of a certain ilk meet, the modern game can become so physical that it's not only impossible to officiate. If 52 fouls are warranted, then call 52 fouls. Maybe someday the players will adjust and start playing basketball again.

Someone mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, that the rules-people need to take a new and hard look about contact in this game. I'm of the opinion that far more offensive fouls should be called if it's that player who overtly bodies into a defender that is moving parallel to them.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I cant blame him. If Duke lost a game like that..... you wouldnt hear from me for weeks..

Is that a promise?

Just kidding, as I hope you know. I also hope no one loses that way. The FGCU game was worse, in my view.

 

[GoUconn7961]

52 fouls is too much I don't care who the two teams are. This AZ-SOCAR game is turning into a foul-fest too. Refs need to back off a bit.

 

[1-of-the-6]

52 fouls is too much I don't care who the two teams are. This AZ-SOCAR game is turning into a foul-fest too. Refs need to back off a bit.

So, you're only concerned about the number of fouls, not if the action on the court is actually a foul?

 

[GoUconn7961]

So, you're only concerned about the number of fouls, not if the action on the court is actually a foul?

I'm saying it's as if the refs want their TV time and/or control the game. I'm sorry you seem to have taken issue with my statement. And that's not what I meant..

 

[ricky]

They swallowed their whistle at the end of the FGCU-Miami game yesterday, and it was hardly fair to FGCU.

If they swallow hard enough, maybe some stripes are out for the season.

 

[1-of-the-6]

I'm saying it's as if the refs want their TV time and/or control the game. I'm sorry you seem to have taken issue with my statement. And that's not what I meant..

There are some refs who would do that, but I think most of the time that they're trying to keep control of a suspected, or what has become, a very physical game. The players need to learn. Good teams can defend without all the bumping, reaching, etc. Example: UCONN.

 

[gamer]

As someone said, neither team adjusted to the way the refs were calling the game. Hence the many, many fouls. Each team got bad calls. The fifth call on Spencer was correct. Those who think it was the wrong call, including the color commentary person, were looking at only the last part of the sequence, in which it did look like their arms just got tangled up. Before that, however, Spencer wrapped her arms around McCarty to get the whole thing started. Rebecca Lobo can have her opinion, but to denounce the charge call on Wilson so strongly was inappropriate. As others have said, the call was completely consistent with the way charges were called throughout the game. There were two replays. In the one from behind, the one they kept showing, it looked like Holmes may have flopped. But, if it was a flop, the charge itself occurred before she decided to flop. The replay from the side shows clearly that Wilson ran pretty hard into Holmes.

I emphatically disagree with people who think refs should make calls differently in the last part of a game. The game must have rules, and if they change at the end, how can players know what to expect? Are they supposed to realize at some point that they can probably start running over people or taking chances they never would otherwise? When does that start? 60 seconds left? 30 seconds left? It really irks me when TV announcers say, "Let the players decide at the end of a game." Yes, let the players decide the game within the rules. Anything else is confusing, arbitrary and unfair.

 

[1-of-the-6]

As someone said, neither team adjusted to the way the refs were calling the game. Hence the many, many fouls. Each team got bad calls. The fifth call on Spencer was correct. Those who think it was the wrong call, including the color commentary person, were looking at only the last part of the sequence, in which it did look like their arms just got tangled up. Before that, however, Spencer wrapped her arms around McCarty to get the whole thing started. Rebecca Lobo can have her opinion, but to denounce the charge call on Wilson so strongly was inappropriate. As others have said, the call was completely consistent with the way charges were called throughout the game. There were two replays. In the one from behind, the one they kept showing, it looked like Holmes may have flopped. But, if it was a flop, the charge itself occurred before she decided to flop. The replay from the side shows clearly that Wilson ran pretty hard into Holmes.

I emphatically disagree with people who think refs should make calls differently in the last part of a game. The game must have rules, and if they change at the end, how can players know what to expect? Are they supposed to realize at some point that they can probably start running over people or taking chances they never would otherwise? When does that start? 60 seconds left? 30 seconds left? It really irks me when TV announcers say, "Let the players decide at the end of a game." Yes, let the players decide the game within the rules. Anything else is confusing, arbitrary and unfair.

I'm in complete agreement. I was very disappointed in Rebecca Lobo, and the female announcer at the game seems to believe that the more vehement her opinions were, especially on the officiating, the better the job she was doing.