Notre Dame struggling in Cancun (merged thread)

[j66kicker]

[QUOTE="JordyG, post: 3349566, member: 6819"
...Butler also left because she knew she wasn't going to play.

Perhaps a slight correction to your post but our understanding is that Natalie Butler transferred to George Mason to pursue a graduate degree in global governance and public management. UCONN did not offer such a degree. Another likely consideration for her selecting George Mason is that it was near her home.

Right. That and knowing she wasn’t going to play much.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Getting back to the Cancun tourney, the Irish turned things around and got a fairly nice win against USF.

 

[Dillon77]

And for the record I don't dislike MM. I've never met her. She's one of the best coaches in wcbb. But for years some fans have pointed to how well she uses her bench, getting her young players experience, in contrast to Geno who gets constantly criticized by some for playing 6 or 7. But when given the chance she chose to play a short bench for 2 years, bringing in a 2 year transfer. Now she is paying for it. The injuries are just making a bad situation worse. They aren't the principal factor, no matter how hard the Irish apologists spin it.

The stats are my evidence

2018 - starters average mins/game
33
30
32
28
31
total average starter minutes = 154

2019 - starters averaged
34
29
34
34
26
total average starter minutes = 157 mins/game

MM ignored her bench for 2 years.

You never know what you'll "come back to" after a chock-full Thanksgiving weekend.

Thanks as usual for your provoking post. I can see how you arrived at your assessment of MM's management of the bench in 2018-2019. I'm not sure "ignored" is the word I'd employ, but she decided "not to use available sophomore and freshman personnel -- for various reasons -- for sure; at least as I saw it develop. And one might make the argument it came back to bite her this year, but you never quite know the reasons behind "retention" and "transfers."

However, I don't think MM was ignoring her bench players at all in the 2018-19 season. Unfortunately, the number of available players on the bench kept getting on crutches. It started with Brianna Turner taking the entire year off to rehab the ACL injury suffered against Purdue in the NCAAs.
Then, spunky Mychael Johnson blew out her knee during practice. She would've been a combo guard who played tough defense.

Still, in the early part of the season, there were four players getting ample court time:
- Transfer guard Lili Thompson was averaging 27.1 minutes in the 14 games she appeared in before succumbing to an injury;
- Freshman Center Mik Vaughn averaged 13.2 minutes in the 6 games she played before her knee went.
After losing those two players, MM relied on two players from there on in:
- Grad Student Kristina "Koko" Nelson averaged 15.8 minutes per game for the whole season, spelling Jess Shepard and Kat Westbeld; and,
- Frosh Danielle Patterson played 12.5 minutes a game, primarily at the forward position.

There simply were no other scholarship players left to mix in that season. In fact, walk-on guard was gettting floor time in the latter part of the season and during NCAA games. If Johnson, Thompson and Vaughn had not been injured, they would've played: Johnson played the previous season and Thompson and Vaughn were getting minutes.

Here's the stats from that year:

https://und.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/women_s_basketball_season_stats_final.pdf

 

[Alydar]

That just not the case. Without a approved waiver exemption Jessica Shepard would still be in uniform for ND.

Maybe. Stevens had to sit a year and after playing one season she left. There's also a possibility that Westbrook will do the same.

 

[Plebe]

Getting back to the Cancun tourney, the Irish turned things sound and got a fairly nice win against USF.

Emphasis on "fairly"

 

[cferraro04]

Jordy G said, "What does that say about Geno?" it says that despite those folks transferring out of the program or those Z leaving early...still Geno managed to get to 12 consecutive final fours.... How many other coaches have managed to do that? Uhhh...that would be none!

 

[MilfordHusky]

Emphasis on "fairly"

USF didn't have a great tourney either, so it's hard to say. Is USF better than the mid-majors that beat N.D.? I think they are roughly on a par, maybe 20-35 nationally.

 

[Plebe]

USF didn't have a great tourney either, so it's hard to say. Is USF better than the mid-majors that beat N.D.? I think they are roughly on a par, maybe 20-35 nationally.

USF lost to both of the mid-majors that beat ND.

 

[Tonyc]

Part of the problem was kids sitting thought it was there time to play and MM didnt play them even with 30+ pt leads. The team ran the show knowing they werent going to sit. So knowing they werent playing with a 30 pt lead except maybe for 2 minutes and seeing kids transferring in and freshman coming in and getting more playtime the others transfered. It comes down to what has been said on this board for a long time. Youve got to find playtime for your non starters or they will leave. Now maybe they arent good enough to start but with a big lead you can play them. I remember when Tenn got the 6 pack and they didnt know Parker was in the wings. Parker committed and the 6 pack began to transfer out. Similar to what happened at ND. Kids on the team didnt know transfers were coming in and they would continue to sit, so they left. They saw freshman come in who were getting more playtime then those already there so they left. With UConns class this season and for the next 2 seasons imo playtime will need to be found for all of them if you want them to stay. Spacing of recruits helps that. Big recruiting classes sometimes arent good if there isnt enough playtime for everybody. Yes kids need time to develop and learn the system but how much time can you as a coach allow and how much as a player can you wait knowing youve got 4 years?????

 

[uconnell]

Perhaps, but their fan base is deep, wide, and loyal . They travel well, show up, and stay loyal through thick and thin. As a Stanford fan with a multi-sport rivalry against the University of Dead Fake Girlfriends, I love to hate the Domers, but I do respect the heck out of them.

That said, there isn't a team (other than U$C) I'm happier to see lose. =D

University of Dead Fake Girlfriends, I love it. Dislike The Domers intensely.

 

[triaddukefan]

Might as well pin this thread to the top..... they likely will take a few more lumps before the end of the calendar year

 

[uconnell]

For me its very simplistic...
I like to see them lose...to us...splendid...to the greater world: better yet.
The feeling is a little like I had watching the futility at UTenn last season...
Interestingly, I'm enjoying see UTenn show some life and spunk and I have a good vibe with regard their new coach.

People here have long memories about the UTenn issues which were discussed earlier in the week.
But I remember much unpleasantness with regard the Irish; mainly Muffet; sexist, hogwash with regard Geno, refusing to applaud for Stewie, coaching her team in the fine art of taking fake charges and drawing imaginary fouls... arrogant displays by her players, not discouraged. They were not gracious winners...and they won some terrific, highly contested games. No complaints about that.

But I continue to sprout a theory...and I'm not going to relinguish it until definitively proven wrong:

Muffet is the empress without clothes.

The real power behind the team is/was Niele Ivey
No Niele Ivey equals weak recruiting and weak guard play.

I can see a mediocre or worse Notre Dame woman's BB for 2 or 3 years.
Then they'll figure it out and bring her back to be head coach.
And she left to set up that scenario.

You bring up a good point about Ivy not being at ND any longer. I hadn’t given that fact any thought.

 

[Alydar]

When freshmen arrive (anywhere) the vast majority find out early in practice whether or not they are ready for major minutes. If the better players are upperclassmen they know their time will come but if there are other freshmen and sophomores ahead of them in terms of talent and performance they are faced with deciding among more work, a change of school or learning to sit.
Players today use social media, etc to create relationships with players all over the country and if they are contemplating a move they can discover other options a lot easier than players could find them in the past.
IMO transfers are going to increase. I am in favor of waiving the 1 year wait but only for players who have completed 2 years.