NCAA exploring Big 5 conference autonomy

[huskymedic]

"And Connecticut AD Warde Manuel cynically suggested the word "revenue" should probably be included among those core values. So at least some people that work in college athletics are just as jaded about the state of college athletics as you are."

Nice job by Warde! He spoke the truth. In practice revenue is the #1 core value for these money hoarding bastards.

A round of applause for Warde.

Collusion should be another core value.

Here is the referenced presentation - core values is last slide. http://content.ncaa.org/ncaa-member...raft_System_Design_1.9.14_CONVENTION_v_5C.pdf

 

[upstater]

I really hope the AAC and the MWC are having conversations about somehow joining their leagues together. If they are not they are fools. As a united entity they could make a strong case for P6.

It's too late for that, with the additions to 12. They should have kept things at 10, and not invited Tulsa and Tulane. That way, you take the regular season champ of the AAC and play the regular season champ of the MWC. It would have kept a home and home schedule for bball as well.

Cincy, UConn, UCF, USF, Temple, SMU, Houston, Memphis, ECU, Navy.

That would have been the football side. Instead, they added Tulsa and Tulane. Bad.

 

[jostar1]

I don't get it. How is it that if you are in a given conference you get granted autonomy? What's to stop the AAC or MWC from getting the same privilege?

Dennis Dodd ‏@dennisdoddcbs 17h
Key question in governance dialogue: Do 65 BCS schools get 51 percent of the vote in legislative issues.

 

[noeynox]

I think exit 4, kind of nails it. The p5, doesn't like gnats like Boise showing up in big bowl games and upsetting the likes of Oklahoma. So to deal with that, create a system where over time it becomes an impossibility for it to happen. Step one, anoint yourself as something better than all the rest. Lets call ourselves the POWER 5. Lets draw a clear line of demarcation between ourselves and everybody else in the eyes of the media and recruits.

 

[Exit 4]

I think exit 4, kind of nails it. The p5, doesn't like gnats like Boise showing up in big bowl games and upsetting the likes of Oklahoma. So to deal with that, create a system where over time it becomes an impossibility for it to happen. Step one, anoint yourself as something better than all the rest. Lets call ourselves the POWER 5. Lets draw a clear line of demarcation between ourselves and everybody else in the eyes of the media and recruits.

Thanks. Its a dotted line of demarcation that they are aiming to make a thick solid line in the years ahead....slowly - brick by brick. Telling the world you are sick of spoilers wont sit well with many, so its best to make it about any other 'issue' you can conjure up.

I like the idea Metsfan has about the AAC and MWC linking up to be the 6th Conf. Maybe we don't merge, but we unite on NCAA issues and work together on scheduling.

 

[ZooCougar]

Here is the referenced presentation - core values is last slide. http://content.ncaa.org/ncaa-member...raft_System_Design_1.9.14_CONVENTION_v_5C.pdf

Slide 12. Those f'ers are sneaky.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Nice comment by Warde. Nice.

Go get em Warde. Kick ass.

 

[Husky25]

I like your thinking but it doesn't stop the power 5 from just up and leaving the NCAA alltogether.

It kinda does. What gives these schools to ability to get out from under the NCAA umbrella for football and then be able to reconcile for a 21 day stretch each March and be included in the NCAA Tournament. It should be all or nothing fellas....

Oh and if these schools do any sort of pay for play, their institution's tax exempt charity status should be stripped. If they are increasing the scholastic benefit for athletes and not for a chemistry student for example, then they are in effect funding a semi-pro organization.

 

[huskymedic]

Slide 12. Those f'ers are sneaky.

Yeah... slide it in towards the end when everyone is yawning and blurry eyed.

Still think it'll be tough to c*ckblock the AAC or MWC from saying we want the same autonomy to reform regulatory structure for football (other than revenue to fund - but that's another hurdle).

 

[UConn Dan]

It kinda does. What gives these schools to ability to get out from under the NCAA umbrella for football and then be able to reconcile for a 21 day stretch each March and be included in the NCAA Tournament. It should be all or nothing fellas....

Oh and if these schools do any sort of pay for play, their institution's tax exempt charity status should be stripped. If they are increasing the scholastic benefit for athletes and not for a chemistry student for example, then they are in effect funding a semi-pro organization.

The NCAA does not administer FBS bowls and championships. They are completely cut out of the revenue pie, yet they are the enforcement. If schools from the "Power 5" want to pull out of the NCAA for football, I'm sure they could a fine way to do while maintaining all other sports under the NCAA tournament umbrella -- there's no loss to the NCAA. You could argue that it would actually be a gain for the NCAA since they wouldn't have to spend so much time and money with football player eligibility and compliance.

 

[UPitt]

I really hope the AAC and the MWC are having conversations about somehow joining their leagues together. If they are not they are fools. As a united entity they could make a strong case for P6.

Great idea if the NCAA had revenue sharing. If you pulled the top 11 teams from those two leagues, and added BYU (with special considerations), you would have a league that would compete today with the P5 on the field. I think we all agree that the seperation on the field is very little. But off the field, this new conference would lack the revenue and exposure that the P5 have access to. This new league would lack the really big, power house type schools that carry the weight of the league. As individual schools, many of the teams in this league would be equals to 2/3 of the P5 schools and would thrive just as well if given the opportunity. But without having a TX/OK, USC/UCLA/Stanford, OSU/PSU/Mich, UNC/FSU, or AL/FL/GA/LSU, it would be difficult for a new league to secure a contract that is near that of the P5. I really like the idea of a 6th league to grab the remaining big time programs, but some form of revenue sharing may be required to keep the 6th league from falling behind the other 5.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The most important thing that can come of this, and will come of it, is that the power to control NCAA athletics will be shifted away from the presidents and back to the athletic directors. If mark emmert were an effective leader, that's what would happen. The effects of the Knight Commission, have been incredibly damaging to the NCAA.

It's no mistake that the BCS era coincides exactly with the time frame that university presidents have been in control of the NCAA (1998-2013).

It's 2014 now, though, and the BCS is gone.

GIVE IT BACK TO THE AD's!!!

 

[noeynox]

Slide 12. Those f'ers are sneaky.

Well the NCAA tournament is the leverage of the smaller schools. The p5 clearly don't want to break off and worry about organizing they own tournaments in other sports so why not create a true fbs playoff they can fully regulate?

 

[upstater]

The most important thing that can come of this, and will come of it, is that the power to control NCAA athletics will be shifted away from the presidents and back to the athletic directors. If mark emmert were an effective leader, that's what would happen. The effects of the Knight Commission, have been incredibly damaging to the NCAA.

It's no mistake that the BCS era coincides exactly with the time frame that university presidents have been in control of the NCAA (1998-2013).

It's 2014 now, though, and the BCS is gone.

GIVE IT BACK TO THE AD's!!!

You mean the guys who went to work right away for people like the Pump Brothers? How is that an improvement?

 

[frankthetank]

Yeah... slide it in towards the end when everyone is yawning and blurry eyed.

Still think it'll be tough to c*ckblock the AAC or MWC from saying we want the same autonomy to reform regulatory structure for football (other than revenue to fund - but that's another hurdle).

I think the autonomy is really about the Power 5 wanting to remove roadblocks so that they can do what they want to do as opposed to preventing other conferences from taking the same measures. If the AAC or MWC actually wanted to adopt the same exact measures as the Power 5, then I believe that you're right that the Power 5 can't stop them from doing it. However, the point is that the AAC and MWC will not have any voice in *blocking* the Power 5 on those issues as they do now. In an extreme example, if the Power 5 want to start paying players six-figure salaries and call it "cost of attendance", they don't want the AAC or MWC to have any say in preventing them from doing so. However, if the AAC and MWC decide on their own that they want to start paying the same salaries, they can go ahead and do it.

 

[Hoophound]

I'm not gonna spend much time thinking about it but I kind of wonder if the best of the MWC and AAC will still consolidate into one East/West conference. There seems to be just enough decent schools left to make a 6th "powerish" conference and create better revenue.

UCONN
USF
UCF
Temple
Cincy
Navy

Boise
SDSU
Fresno
UNLV
Memphis
Houston

Ten schools. Much better than what we have now, two clear east/west divisions. Very good basketball, good recruiting territory, no small schools. There wouldn't be one game in basketball or football that I would dread attending in that conference. The worst of it, like Memphis football, will be pretty good soon. They are committed to athletics, they just need a decent coach.

 

[Husky25]

The NCAA does not administer FBS bowls and championships. They are completely cut out of the revenue pie, yet they are the enforcement. If schools from the "Power 5" want to pull out of the NCAA for football, I'm sure they could a fine way to do while maintaining all other sports under the NCAA tournament umbrella -- there's no loss to the NCAA. You could argue that it would actually be a gain for the NCAA since they wouldn't have to spend so much time and money with football player eligibility and compliance.

The BCS is out from under the control of the NCAA, but that is it. All of the games played in order to get to the first week of January are still NCAA sanctioned events. The NCAA would lose their cut of revenue associated with at least 390 (65 teams x 6 home games plus license and affiliation fees) regular season games. Amplified a bit more, let's assume actual average attendance across the P5 board is 50,000 per game (FYI: Attendance across the 120 FBS Schools was about 45K. So it stands to reason that the schools that seat more than 50,000 are offset by the BCs, Wakes, and NWU, and Vandys of the p5) at an average of $25/seat.

50k x $25 x 65 programs x 6 home games = $487,500,000. So the NCAA is going to willingly give up their portion of at least a $ $ $half billion? I tend to think not.

 

[UConn Dan]

The BCS is out of control of the NCAA, but that is it. All of the games played in order to get to the first week of January are still NCAA sanctioned events. The NCAA would lose their cut of revenue associated with at least 390 (65 teams x 6 home games plus license and affiliation fees) regular season games. Amplified a bit more, let's assume actual average attendance across the P5 board is 50,000 per game (FYI: Attendance across the 120 FBS Schools was about 45K. So it stands to reason that the schools that seat more than 50,000 are offset by the BCs, Wakes, and NWU, and Vandys of the p5) at an average of $25/seat.

50k x $25 x 65 programs x 6 home games = $487,500,000. So the NCAA is going to willingly give up their portion of at least a $ $ $half billion? I tend to think not.

Show me net numbers that the NCAA makes on football.

 

[ZooCougar]

I'm not gonna spend much time thinking about it but I kind of wonder if the best of the MWC and AAC will still consolidate into one East/West conference. There seems to be just enough decent schools left to make a 6th "powerish" conference and create better revenue.

UCONN
USF
UCF
Temple
Cincy
Navy

Boise
SDSU
Fresno
UNLV
Memphis
Houston

Ten schools. Much better than what we have now, two clear east/west divisions. Very good basketball, good recruiting territory, no small schools. There wouldn't be one game in basketball of football that I would dread attending in that conference. The worst of it, like Memphis football, will be pretty good soon. They are committed to athletics, they just need a decent coach.

Something like this should have taken from last season when everything was a mess.

 

[bobbyinaz]

The BCS is out from under the control of the NCAA, but that is it. All of the games played in order to get to the first week of January are still NCAA sanctioned events. The NCAA would lose their cut of revenue associated with at least 390 (65 teams x 6 home games plus license and affiliation fees) regular season games. Amplified a bit more, let's assume actual average attendance across the P5 board is 50,000 per game (FYI: Attendance across the 120 FBS Schools was about 45K. So it stands to reason that the schools that seat more than 50,000 are offset by the BCs, Wakes, and NWU, and Vandys of the p5) at an average of $25/seat.

50k x $25 x 65 programs x 6 home games = $487,500,000. So the NCAA is going to willingly give up their portion of at least a $ $ $half billion? I tend to think not.

Plus hypothetically, if the P5 decided to have their own hoops tournament the NCAA would no longer be getting a billion dollars from CBS, TNT et al. The majority of TV dollars would go to whatever tournament the P5 stage and the remaining NCAA conferences would essentially be participating in the NIT

 

[Husky25]

Show me net numbers that the NCAA makes on football.

No.

I'm not doing your research for you. I will post this, however:
Each year, about 60 percent of all NCAA revenue is returned directly to the Division I conferences and member institutions. For the 2011-12 fiscal year, that figure was $503 million (62 percent).

$503,000,000 / 62% = $811,290,322.58 total NCAA revenue for 2011/2012.

They aren't making well over $3/4 Billion on Women's Softball and the Penn Relays, I assure you. Division 1 NCAA Football contributes a positive, non-zero amount.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I think exit 4, kind of nails it. The p5, doesn't like gnats like Boise showing up in big bowl games and upsetting the likes of Oklahoma. So to deal with that, create a system where over time it becomes an impossibility for it to happen. Step one, anoint yourself as something better than all the rest. Lets call ourselves the POWER 5. Lets draw a clear line of demarcation between ourselves and everybody else in the eyes of the media and recruits.

Schools with Resources is the new term.

CT with it's second multi-$B infusion I guess doesn't count?

 

[noeynox]

Plus hypothetically, if the P5 decided to have their own hoops tournament the NCAA would no longer be getting a billion dollars from CBS, TNT et al. The majority of TV dollars would go to whatever tournament the P5 stage and the remaining NCAA conferences would essentially be participating in the NIT

Dont agree. A huge part of the ncaa is the cinderella runs. Withouf those the tournament is much less compelling. Its clear the p5, dont want a total split, otherwise they would just do it.

 

[UConn Dan]

No.

I'm not doing your research for you. I will post this, however:
Each year, about 60 percent of all NCAA revenue is returned directly to the Division I conferences and member institutions. For the 2011-12 fiscal year, that figure was $503 million (62 percent).

$503,000,000 / 62% = $811,290,322.58 total NCAA revenue for 2011/2012.

They aren't making well over $3/4 Billion on Women's Softball and the Penn Relays, I assure you. Division 1 NCAA Football contributes a positive, non-zero amount.

Nice try, the NCAA nets 4% and everything goes back to the schools. Seems you need to look up the definitions of revenue vs. net take. The NCAA will will downsize their football compliance department accordingly. I suppose NCAA member schools will take a hit on their distribution -- now if you want to talk about the membership not liking it, that's another story.


http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/6756472/following-ncaa-money
The NCAA says 96 percent of its annual revenue is returned to its member schools either in direct payments or in programs and services.

[+] Enlarge
Al Bello/Getty Images Nearly 60 percent of NCAA president Mark Emmert's 2010-11 operating budget revenue will be distributed directly to its Division I members.
According to the NCAA, it spends $30.6 million -- about 4 percent of its entire budget -- on administrative expenses and staff salaries.

 

[frankthetank]

Plus hypothetically, if the P5 decided to have their own hoops tournament the NCAA would no longer be getting a billion dollars from CBS, TNT et al. The majority of TV dollars would go to whatever tournament the P5 stage and the remaining NCAA conferences would essentially be participating in the NIT

Yes, it's still a MUCH bigger threat for the P5 to leave than the other way around. Sure, the P5-only basketball tournament wouldn't receive as much in total as the NCAA Tournament, but as I've said many times with respect to the football playoff discussions, TOTAL DOLLARS DON'T MATTER. What matters is how the money is SPLIT. The majority of the NCAA Tournament money first goes toward the NCAA for administration costs and then every Division I conference gets a cut. The P5's perspective (whether you agree with it or not) is that it's a raw deal for them financially - they'll argue that the only reason why the Cinderella aspect of the NCAA Tournament has any value is that the P5 is providing the Goliaths that David can attempt to slay. I'd go so far as to say that the P5's experience with NCAA Tournament revenue sharing is exactly why they do NOT want anything to do with something similar for football and, even more than short-term money, must have complete control over the postseason football system above all else. If the P5 could get a basketball tournament where they'd receive 100% of the revenue, then they don't give a crap if they still end up with larger shares compared to the more egalitarian NCAA Tournament (and furthermore if it indirectly increases the value of their own regular season basketball TV packages compared to now).

 

[Husky25]

Plus hypothetically, if the P5 decided to have their own hoops tournament the NCAA would no longer be getting a billion dollars from CBS, TNT et al. The majority of TV dollars would go to whatever tournament the P5 stage and the remaining NCAA conferences would essentially be participating in the NIT

The NCAA would have to agree to renegotiate unless there is a buyout option or a clause for renegotiation specifically referring to certain terms. (I assume there is. The NCAA might be publicly thought of as inept bumbling idiots, but their lawyer's aren't and niether are CBS's...but still). Otherwise CBS is bound to fulfill their obligation. The NCAA could argue that they are a 1,000 member school organization and the 65 that left do not materially affect that population. CBS would have their arguments as well and it would get tied up in court for years, if not decades.

 

[bobbyinaz]

Dont agree. A huge part of the ncaa is the cinderella runs. Withouf those the tournament is much less compelling. Its clear the p5, dont want a total split, otherwise they would just do it.

I agree that the Cinderella runs is what makes the tournament so special but if you think CBS is paying a billion dollars to the NCAA for a tournament that doesn't include Kentucky, Kansas, Carolina, Duke etc. you are crazy.

The P5 don't want a split because what they are asking for is the best of all worlds for them. They get to make their own rules, they get to keep all the money from the football playoffs & they get to participate in all the other NCAA tournaments.

If they don't get their way a split could happen. Everyone says they could never get away with it because they aren't giving everyone a fair shot but the reality is that instead of calling anything a National Championship all they have to do is call it the "P5 Championship" and then there are no exclusion issues. If you are not a member of the P5, you are not eligible to participate in their championship

 

[Carl Spackler]

Schools with Resources is the new term.

CT with it's second multi-$B infusion I guess doesn't count?

Forgot the word 'television'. "Schools with TELEVISION resources." And more specifically, it should be "Schools with TELEVISED FOOTBALL resources."

THe Power 5 terminology is a media thing, that the NCAA has adopted. Television media around football........

 

[Exit 4]

I think the autonomy is really about the Power 5 wanting to remove roadblocks so that they can do what they want to do as opposed to preventing other conferences from taking the same measures. If the AAC or MWC actually wanted to adopt the same exact measures as the Power 5, then I believe that you're right that the Power 5 can't stop them from doing it. However, the point is that the AAC and MWC will not have any voice in *blocking* the Power 5 on those issues as they do now. In an extreme example, if the Power 5 want to start paying players six-figure salaries and call it "cost of attendance", they don't want the AAC or MWC to have any say in preventing them from doing so. However, if the AAC and MWC decide on their own that they want to start paying the same salaries, they can go ahead and do it.

In my opinion, it is as much about creating permanent separation to avoid future Boise States than it is about issues "unique to the P5 athlete." Creating a cash stipend and a separate P5 administered policing authority will certainly add more bricks to the wall and that's the idea.

 

[Husky25]

Nice try, the NCAA nets 4% and everything goes back to the schools. Seems you need to look up the definitions of revenue vs. net take. The NCAA will will downsize their football compliance department accordingly. I suppose NCAA member schools will take a hit on their distribution -- now if you want to talk about the membership not liking it, that's another story.


http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/6756472/following-ncaa-money
The NCAA says 96 percent of its annual revenue is returned to its member schools either in direct payments or in programs and services.

[+] Enlarge
Al Bello/Getty Images Nearly 60 percent of NCAA president Mark Emmert's 2010-11 operating budget revenue will be distributed directly to its Division I members.
According to the NCAA, it spends $30.6 million -- about 4 percent of its entire budget -- on administrative expenses and staff salaries.

Nice try, what?

Funny. My link goes right to the NCAA.org website. Yours references ESPN and person who most people don't trust as far as they can throw him. Be that as it may: $30,600,000 / 4% = $765,000,000. And technically, a not-for-profit organization makes exactly $0.00. By law, it must pay out or restrict for future use all proceeds over expense. They do this by contributing to Internal Funds. So by posting the NCAA's Administration fund is 4% of their budgeted revenue does really move the needle for me.

BTW I don't know exactly how much the Football Compliance department makes as a whole, but I'm guessing it isn't that much in comparison to $30 Million/year. The NCAA will lose 10s of $millions more in revenue than they save in compliance salary expense.