OT: NBA Playoffs

[Lefty2one]

What a choke job. The warning signs were there all season but it's still amazing that it happened. Doc will justifiably lose his job over this but when your stars poo the bed to that extent there isn't much a coach can do.

Kawhi's reputation is going to take a hit. It's amazing he didn't take a FT last night in 43 minutes. Two Finals MVPs but he's not a leader and he's not a playmaker.

That is going to be LAC's issue going forward IMO. They'll get a new coach and they'll gel a bit next year but neither Kawhi nor PG-13 are playmakers and they don't have a great one, don't have the cap space to sign one, and don't have the assets to trade for one.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Miami Heat are good. They are tough and smart, Dragic, Adebayo and Herro are very good, and they have the alpha dog in Butler that can take over a game by himself. They run a good offense and are very solid defensively. The Celtics are clearly the better team if they have Hayward, but until then, each game could go either way.

I like Doc Rivers, and I like the Clippers, but it is just not working out. Paul George is declining before our eyes, and the Clippers have one more year to make a run before their window closes. I would get Tyrone Lue if I were the Clippers, and his job would be to get George, Leonard and the rest of the team onto the same page.

 

[gtcam]

The Celtics will work out of this. Hayward is not the answer and never has been. Smart is 100 times the player that Hayward is/or will be.
The problem with the Celts last night rests with Brad Stevens - he allowed the old standby of two man ball - something he has never done before, even with Kyrie. It looked like a KO coached UConn team and that is why KO should have stayed with the NBA ranks. I love the way Stevens coaches but it got away from him.
Kemba and Tatum are not going to win this by themselves - first, neither have the experience of this late playoff pressure and by looking to them to be the heroes will result in brilliant instances but costly bonehead mistakes from Tatum and too much pressure on Kemba's back as a result of double teams and clogged lanes.
Smart and Brown end up being spectators rather than participants and they are too good to allow that to happen.
Butler may be the alpha dog but he knows when to give it up and uses his teammates.
Celts are much better when they share the ball and keep moving - it then spurs their defense into aggressiveness and ball hawking

 

[Mr. French]

The Cs need a center who can rim protect and rebound, or they need to play Williams a bit more than they have been. Theis plays hard but he gives them very little offense and his rebounding/rim protecting leaves a lot to be desired. Plus he gets no calls so he's always in foul trouble.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Remember, Kawhi load-managed all season so he would have enough in the tank to go 1-11 in the second half last night.

I think the smart move is to avoid panic. Take the shame of this meltdown, convince their super-wealthy owner to go deeper into the luxury tax and bring CP III back to LA. He is the vocal leader they need.

 

[auror]

The Cs need a center who can rim protect and rebound, or they need to play Williams a bit more than they have been. Theis plays hard but he gives them very little offense and his rebounding/rim protecting leaves a lot to be desired. Plus he gets no calls so he's always in foul trouble.

Outside of the all-stars, I wouldn't take many centers over Theis. He makes the plays they need him to make, and he's smart. He's quite mobile and his rim protection isn't terrible. And best of all, he's affordable. Those all stars are going to cost more than the Celtics can afford with Kemba/Hayward/Tatum/Brown contracts.

 

[auror]

I just thought it was weird the announcers brought Doncic up out of nowhere a couple of times during the game to compare him to Tatum when their games are nothing alike and everyone knows Doncic is better. They made it sound like they would take Tatum over Doncic. No offence to Tatum who is a young star, just thought it was weird.

He's the most comparable talent as far as age (less than 1 year apart in age). It's a reasonable conversation to have.

I think knowing what I know right now, I'll take Tatum for the long term. His defense over Doncic's is cumulatively better than Doncic's offense is better than Tatum's. Doncic doesn't have the tools to ever really be that good on defense. Offense is great for the regular season, but you need defense over 7 games to win in the playoffs. Offense in the playoffs is heavily scheme and matchups based. They both unlock a lot schematically, Doncic obviously more with his playmaking. But Doncic will get abused by good teams on D, whereas Tatum is all defense level.

Tatum's playmaking has grown by leaps this season. Doncic's shotmaking should improve to get close to Tatum's (because right now Tatum is better in that area), and I don't think Tatum's playmaking and vision will ever get to Doncic's level because it's mostly instinctual. So I definitely see the other side. But Tatum's shotmaking let's him play off the ball and to help the team when someone else has the ball or he's struggling/has a bad matchup. He fits in with more teams, whereas Doncic is going to need the ball (and rightly should be given the ball in most circumstances) to really do anything, until his shotmaking improves.

Doncic fought the Clippers hard (and while injured!). But maybe the Clippers weren't actually as good as we thought because of coaching? Whereas Tatum was the clear best player in the Raptors/Celtics series with a coaching disparity of Nick Nurse vs. Clippers' Doc Rivers. Carlisle vs. Stevens is pretty comparable as far as their own teams go.

To summarize, I trust Tatum's defense to be the difference at the highest, highest level of play, while I worry Doncic will always be a liability or at best neutral there. Meanwhile, I do think Doncic will probably lead his team to more regular season wins on a consistent basis and will put up better stats and lead the league in a lot of metrics for a long time to come. I think Doncic will raise a team's floor more and Tatum will raise a team's ceiling if they're already good, and I find that to be more important. But I do totally get if someone disagrees with my assessment. Doncic is unbelieveable and may be able to work on his body and get better on D, but he's been a pro for like 5 years now and hasn't really, so I'm skeptical and he'll just never be as long as Tatum. Basically, I think Doncic will be closer to Harden than LeBron and Tatum is closer to a modern Kobe. Tatum will need his Shaq/Pau/whomever, but is there really a 2nd player that puts Doncic over the hump? Maybe a Adebayo/Draymond type, but those guys are RARE.

 

[Mr. French]

Outside of the all-stars, I wouldn't take many centers over Theis. He makes the plays they need him to make, and he's smart. He's quite mobile and his rim protection isn't terrible. And best of all, he's affordable. Those all stars are going to cost more than the Celtics can afford with Kemba/Hayward/Tatum/Brown contracts.

Agreed about the costs, and I think he does a lot of the little things well, I agree there too ...

I admit I've only REALLY watched and paid attention to them since the bubble, but I don't see much rim protection or rebounding out of him at all, and he is a zero on offense even when given some decent passes. I like the guy enough, he's not any reason they're losing, but I've seen them get more out of that position with R Williams and a solid C would make Kemba's P n' R and other aspects of their offense run much more effectively. Just my 2 cents. I don't hate him and he gets absolutely zero calls from the refs on O or D. But I think an upgrade would be very helpful.

 

[superjohn]

He's the most comparable talent as far as age (less than 1 year apart in age). It's a reasonable conversation to have.

I think knowing what I know right now, I'll take Tatum for the long term. His defense over Doncic's is cumulatively better than Doncic's offense is better than Tatum's. Doncic doesn't have the tools to ever really be that good on defense. Offense is great for the regular season, but you need defense over 7 games to win in the playoffs. Offense in the playoffs is heavily scheme and matchups based. They both unlock a lot schematically, Doncic obviously more with his playmaking. But Doncic will get abused by good teams on D, whereas Tatum is all defense level.

Tatum's playmaking has grown by leaps this season. Doncic's shotmaking should improve to get close to Tatum's (because right now Tatum is better in that area), and I don't think Tatum's playmaking and vision will ever get to Doncic's level because it's mostly instinctual. So I definitely see the other side. But Tatum's shotmaking let's him play off the ball and to help the team when someone else has the ball or he's struggling/has a bad matchup. He fits in with more teams, whereas Doncic is going to need the ball (and rightly should be given the ball in most circumstances) to really do anything, until his shotmaking improves.

Doncic fought the Clippers hard (and while injured!). But maybe the Clippers weren't actually as good as we thought because of coaching? Whereas Tatum was the clear best player in the Raptors/Celtics series with a coaching disparity of Nick Nurse vs. Clippers' Doc Rivers. Carlisle vs. Stevens is pretty comparable as far as their own teams go.

To summarize, I trust Tatum's defense to be the difference at the highest, highest level of play, while I worry Doncic will always be a liability or at best neutral there. Meanwhile, I do think Doncic will probably lead his team to more regular season wins on a consistent basis and will put up better stats and lead the league in a lot of metrics for a long time to come. I think Doncic will raise a team's floor more and Tatum will raise a team's ceiling if they're already good, and I find that to be more important. But I do totally get if someone disagrees with my assessment. Doncic is unbelieveable and may be able to work on his body and get better on D, but he's been a pro for like 5 years now and hasn't really, so I'm skeptical and he'll just never be as long as Tatum. Basically, I think Doncic will be closer to Harden than LeBron and Tatum is closer to a modern Kobe. Tatum will need his Shaq/Pau/whomever, but is there really a 2nd player that puts Doncic over the hump? Maybe a Adebayo/Draymond type, but those guys are RARE.

I couldn't disagree with this more...Tatum is a young star, Doncic is a generational talent. Tatum is a better outside shooter right now and a better defender, Doncic is much better at everything else. I don't even know how to respond to you implying you can't win a 7 game series with Doncic's defense, his defensive improvement is already noticeable. He's a solid defender and he singlehandedly gave the Clippers all they could handle in his first playoffs on a bum ankle. Despite Doncic's poor outside shooting #'s I find it hard to believe anyone is taking Tatum over Doncic with the ball in his hands and the game on the line in a playoff series.

Tatum fitting in with more teams is moot because Cuban and any other GM in the league is building their franchise around Luka for the next 15 years.

The Harden Luka comparison is terrible, Doncic is already better than him. Is there really a second player that puts Doncic over the top? Because of Porzingis injuries most of these games the second best player on the Mavs is Tim Hardaway Jr. or Seth Curry.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I couldn't disagree with this more...Tatum is a young star, Doncic is a generational talent. Tatum is a better outside shooter right now and a better defender, Doncic is much better at everything else. I don't even know how to respond to you implying you can't win a 7 game series with Doncic's defense, his defensive improvement is already noticeable. He's a solid defender and he singlehandedly gave the Clippers all they could handle in his first playoffs on a bum ankle. Despite Doncic's poor outside shooting #'s I find it hard to believe anyone is taking Tatum over Doncic with the ball in his hands and the game on the line in a playoff series.

Tatum fitting in with more teams is moot because Cuban and any other GM in the league is building their franchise around Luka for the next 15 years.

The Harden Luka comparison is terrible, Doncic is already better than him. Is there really a second player that puts Doncic over the top? Because of Porzingis injuries most of these games the second best player on the Mavs is Tim Hardaway Jr. or Seth Curry.

Doncic is a potential Top-15 player of all time. He’s THAT good. Tatum doesn’t have that. Anyone taking Tatum over Doncic is either a homer or a casual watcher.

 

[Mr. French]

I think Tatum has done really well and is making a case to be a perennial all-star, but his game still has warts. He's not the crafty finisher or even in the same stratosphere as a passer as Doncic ... in fact, he's not a very good passer at all - head down and he's gone when he does decide to attack. I've said it a bunch here already, but he relies on these difficult fadeaways and stepbacks WAY too much. Maybe because his confidence in his handle isn't there yet ...

Not meant as an attack on him, he's a youngster with tons of potential and is already really good. He's going to be a great player and already is getting there. But he doesn't have the ceiling that Doncic has and he's not nearly as good of an all-around player as Luka is right now.

 

[auror]

I couldn't disagree with this more...Tatum is a young star, Doncic is a generational talent. Tatum is a better outside shooter right now and a better defender, Doncic is much better at everything else. I don't even know how to respond to you implying you can't win a 7 game series with Doncic's defense, his defensive improvement is already noticeable. He's a solid defender and he singlehandedly gave the Clippers all they could handle in his first playoffs on a bum ankle. Despite Doncic's poor outside shooting #'s I find it hard to believe anyone is taking Tatum over Doncic with the ball in his hands and the game on the line in a playoff series.

Tatum fitting in with more teams is moot because Cuban and any other GM in the league is building their franchise around Luka for the next 15 years.

The Harden Luka comparison is terrible, Doncic is already better than him. Is there really a second player that puts Doncic over the top? Because of Porzingis injuries most of these games the second best player on the Mavs is Tim Hardaway Jr. or Seth Curry.

We agree to disagree, I addressed most of your concerns with my opinions in the post already (it just happens that shooting and defense are 2 of the 3 most important skills to have, so pretty relevant Tatum is better at them). But I will elaborate that I've been thinking a lot about what types of players and systems win titles, so this conversation dovetails into that. It's a fact even in modern times that each round of the playoffs teams organically get more and more ISO playmake-for-yourself heavy, as opposed to playmake-for-others heavy.

I get it if you watched the game last night and think Tatum isn't transcendent at that at age 22 (since Tatum didn't totally execute down the stretch and took a step back 3 just like Doncic does), but I think Tatum's potential is much higher in this regard than Doncic's, mainly due to his length and 3 level shotmaking. But this is an opinion and I could be wrong. We'll find out in time. And really that's the tiebreak. I think they'll both be all-time greats, but that's the crux of my Doncic raises a team's floor higher than Tatum, but Tatum will raise his team's ceiling more take.

The ISO playoff thing is also illustrative of what makes defense more important in the playoffs, because the teams that survive to get to that point are the ones able to elevate their defense to shut down what the opponent wants to do while limiting the matchups that can be exploited. I don't think Doncic can elevate his defense much above "okay". Tatum has already shown he does.

 

[superjohn]

Doncic is a potential Top-15 player of all time. He’s THAT good. Tatum doesn’t have that. Anyone taking Tatum over Doncic is either a homer or a casual watcher.

Exactly. There's an enormous chasm between Doncic and guys like Tatum and Harden when it comes to playmaking, vision, making his teammates better. There's Luka, Lebron, and Jokic in that regard right now. Luka also has way better handles, is a way better paint scorer/finisher, rebounder...Tatum is in the next group of young stars but the comparison to Doncic is laughable at this point and I'll never understand this notion that Luka doesn't have much room for improvement.

The Mavericks just had the most efficient offense in NBA history and I repeat a lot of the time their second best player was Tim Hardaway Jr. or Seth Curry. There's a reason when guys who have been around the league a long time are asked to compare Luka to other players he gets compared to Magic, Bird, and Lebron.

 

[Huskymagic]

He's the most comparable talent as far as age (less than 1 year apart in age). It's a reasonable conversation to have.

I think knowing what I know right now, I'll take Tatum for the long term. His defense over Doncic's is cumulatively better than Doncic's offense is better than Tatum's. Doncic doesn't have the tools to ever really be that good on defense. Offense is great for the regular season, but you need defense over 7 games to win in the playoffs. Offense in the playoffs is heavily scheme and matchups based. They both unlock a lot schematically, Doncic obviously more with his playmaking. But Doncic will get abused by good teams on D, whereas Tatum is all defense level.

Tatum's playmaking has grown by leaps this season. Doncic's shotmaking should improve to get close to Tatum's (because right now Tatum is better in that area), and I don't think Tatum's playmaking and vision will ever get to Doncic's level because it's mostly instinctual. So I definitely see the other side. But Tatum's shotmaking let's him play off the ball and to help the team when someone else has the ball or he's struggling/has a bad matchup. He fits in with more teams, whereas Doncic is going to need the ball (and rightly should be given the ball in most circumstances) to really do anything, until his shotmaking improves.

Doncic fought the Clippers hard (and while injured!). But maybe the Clippers weren't actually as good as we thought because of coaching? Whereas Tatum was the clear best player in the Raptors/Celtics series with a coaching disparity of Nick Nurse vs. Clippers' Doc Rivers. Carlisle vs. Stevens is pretty comparable as far as their own teams go.

To summarize, I trust Tatum's defense to be the difference at the highest, highest level of play, while I worry Doncic will always be a liability or at best neutral there. Meanwhile, I do think Doncic will probably lead his team to more regular season wins on a consistent basis and will put up better stats and lead the league in a lot of metrics for a long time to come. I think Doncic will raise a team's floor more and Tatum will raise a team's ceiling if they're already good, and I find that to be more important. But I do totally get if someone disagrees with my assessment. Doncic is unbelieveable and may be able to work on his body and get better on D, but he's been a pro for like 5 years now and hasn't really, so I'm skeptical and he'll just never be as long as Tatum. Basically, I think Doncic will be closer to Harden than LeBron and Tatum is closer to a modern Kobe. Tatum will need his Shaq/Pau/whomever, but is there really a 2nd player that puts Doncic over the hump? Maybe a Adebayo/Draymond type, but those guys are RARE.

Tatum is overrated. He is no Kobe. He is a replica of Paul George at best but not as smooth.

Doncic and Jokic are head and shoulders better than him.

 

[auror]

Tatum is overrated. He is no Kobe. He is a replica of Paul George at best but not as smooth.

Doncic and Jokic are head and shoulders better than him.

Tatum is 22 years old. He and Kobe are the only guys ever to record a 25-10-5 in a game 7 at age 22 or younger.

He does literally everything well. Just like Luka, he's several years away from his prime.

Do you know what Kobe did in the playoffs when he was 22? 29-7-6 on 30% usage and 56% TS% with close to a 2:1 A:TO ratio, 1.6 steals and about 1 block a game. 2nd best player on a title team.

Do you know what Tatum is doing in the playoffs when he is 22? 26-10-4 on 28% usage and 57% TS% with close to a 2:1 A:TO ratio, 1.4 steals and about 1 block a game. Best player on a conference finals team with a good chance to make Finals. And not playing alongside absolute prime Shaq.

PG scored far less, used less possessions, did not shoot this well, and committed far more turnovers in the playoffs at this same age. Tatum is on a different track.

 

[Scoe]

Ok Kemba he needs at least 20 tonight, must win game for the Celtics, cannot go down to Miami down 0-2.

 

[auror]

Ok Kemba he needs at least 20 tonight, must win game for the Celtics, cannot go down to Miami down 0-2.

He's hit 2 3's already. Both looked pretty pure. 1 was his patented moving full speed off PnR pull up directly at the top of the key 3 that he's been missing since early in the Raptors series.

 

[upstater]

I'm watching the Oculus feed, but I don't own Oculus.

How do people not vomit watching this thing. I feel sick after only 5 minutes.

I also wonder if I can watch this Oculus feed on my phone using one of those cheap 3D viewers.

 

[Kitaman]

I see some people here have healed their dook allergies.

I need their medicine so I too can slobber over Tatum.

 

[aceboon]

Kemba got that pep back in his step, not alot of hesitation in his moves tonight

 

[husky429]

14/5/2 on 60% shooting for Kemba at halftime. He's back

 

[Mike Honcho]

 

[Rocktheworld]

Love kemba but that’s just him taking advantage of a rookie

 

[UConn990411]

The Celtics are never prepared for third quarters. At some point, you have to point the coaching staff.

 

[aceboon]

Heat are a hard team to put away