NBA Playoffs

[auror]

Again, the fantasy generation is ruining sports. Watch the games, James Harden is not better than Lebron.

This is a Hall of Fame-level curmudgeon troll post.

You made a superior generation comment.
You didn't answer any of his questions or make any arguments.
You used an appeal to authority fallacy on a strawman fallacy in the same sentence. And naturally you made it self-authority.

You can still make arguments even if you don't like stats. You just have to say what you see specifically that makes you think certain players are better than others when doing all that game watching you do. Not making any arguments other than appeals to authority or popularity is lazy. You can say (repeatedly) it's not worth the effort to debate people on the internet, but when you continue to do so, albeit in a lazy manner, you just undermine your own opinions.

 

[Rocktheworld]

This is a Hall of Fame-level curmudgeon troll post.

You made a superior generation comment.
You didn't answer any of his questions or make any arguments.
You used an appeal to authority fallacy on a strawman fallacy in the same sentence. And naturally you made it self-authority.

You can still make arguments even if you don't like stats. You just have to say what you see specifically that makes you think certain players are better than others when doing all that game watching you do. Not making any arguments other than appeals to authority or popularity is lazy. You can say (repeatedly) it's not worth the effort to debate people on the internet, but when you continue to do so, albeit in a lazy manner, you just undermine your own opinions.

Same guy who touts the almighty “if you didn’t watch X player you can’t compare him to Y player” dismissal

 

[HuskyHawk]

Definitely wasn't counting on any of the future picks. That certainly changes the calculus depending on what happens with those.

RE their past success, I just think it's a different game in the playoffs. The Warriors dial it up when they want or need to.

I'm sure they could take a couple games, but I just don't see them outlasting the Warriors over 7 games. I mean, this Warriors team just took out one of the best teams in the NBA by 30.

So the Warriors dial it up...everyone else does too. You don't have to go back in time very far to find Warrior teams that weren't very good. They became what they are quite rapidly. The last year UConn won a national championship, GS finished 6th in the west. Two years before that they missed the playoffs.

I think Boston is replicating that, and with a healthy roster, the talent gap between them is negligible. The talent differential favors Boston over time, since GS is older. The seemingly "old" Al Horford is the same age as Curry and Durant is only a year younger. GS isn't going to stay on top for long.

 

[Lefty2one]

Embiid is better than Cousins.

Whoa. Spicy!

 

[Dogdeacon]

This is a Hall of Fame-level curmudgeon troll post.

You made a superior generation comment.
You didn't answer any of his questions or make any arguments.
You used an appeal to authority fallacy on a strawman fallacy in the same sentence. And naturally you made it self-authority.

You can still make arguments even if you don't like stats. You just have to say what you see specifically that makes you think certain players are better than others when doing all that game watching you do. Not making any arguments other than appeals to authority or popularity is lazy. You can say (repeatedly) it's not worth the effort to debate people on the internet, but when you continue to do so, albeit in a lazy manner, you just undermine your own opinions.

Said it far better than I

 

[superjohn]

Whoa. Spicy!

You think Cousins is better? Cousins is a cancer, Pelicans were better with Mirotic.

 

[Lefty2one]

You think Cousins is better? Cousins is a cancer, Pelicans were better with Mirotic.

And Philly had some of their best stretches against Boston and Miami with Embiid on the bench.

Neither is my cup of tea but I'd still take Cousins at this point. Embiid needs to become more consistent before I'm putting him over Cousins. Embiid looks like the best center in the league some nights and like a benchwarmer the next.

 

[intlzncster]

So the Warriors dial it up...everyone else does too. You don't have to go back in time very far to find Warrior teams that weren't very good. They became what they are quite rapidly. The last year UConn won a national championship, GS finished 6th in the west. Two years before that they missed the playoffs.

I think Boston is replicating that, and with a healthy roster, the talent gap between them is negligible. The talent differential favors Boston over time, since GS is older. The seemingly "old" Al Horford is the same age as Curry and Durant is only a year younger. GS isn't going to stay on top for long.

I'm done with the prediction game (other than a GS championship), as I've been wrong. Rockets pulled that one out so credit there, but the Warriors did themselves wrong by taking bad shots.

So for the next 3 years or so, they are gonna be on top. They are all 28-30. In that time, Boston will only have one guy who could start on their team outside the Big 4. For the record, Big Al is more than 2 years older than Steph.

If Boston can pick up a Kevin Durant, then the calculus changes.

 

[intlzncster]

Neither is my cup of tea but I'd still take Cousins at this point. Embiid needs to become more consistent before I'm putting him over Cousins. Embiid looks like the best center in the league some nights and like a benchwarmer the next.

That's probably just youth and inexperience though. He just hasn't played enough games yet.

 

[Yardigan]

Trade Proposal: Reggie Miller (or even C Webber) for Mark Jackson....

 

[Mr. French]

Trade Proposal: Reggie Miller (or even C Webber) for Mark Jackson....

Not Webber. I like Jackson, but I like Miller a lot. But I love him with Harlan.

 

[intlzncster]

The Celtics are the worst layup making team in the game.

 

[MadDogRevival]

JR Smith is useless on the road. 1 for 6, 0 for 4 from 3, 0 boards, 1 assist, 5 fouls, 1 TO, 2 points. In 26 minutes. Think he might fluke a board in 25 minutes.
Can't stand streaky, inconsistent players - as much as they can build you up quickly, they will burn you down at some point.
He'll hit 3 threes on Friday and signal to the crowd like he's the second coming of World B. Free.
Starting 4 other than LBJ - 8 for 27 and 2 for 12 from 3.
Doesn't see that the Cavs can win in Boston.

 

[Yardigan]

JR Smith is useless on the road. 1 for 6, 0 for 4 from 3, 0 boards, 1 assist, 5 fouls, 1 TO, 2 points. In 26 minutes. Think he might fluke a board in 25 minutes.
Can't stand streaky, inconsistent players - as much as they can build you up quickly, they will burn you down at some point.
He'll hit 3 threes on Friday and signal to the crowd like he's the second coming of World B. Free.
Starting 4 other than LBJ - 8 for 27 and 2 for 12 from 3.
Doesn't see that the Cavs can win in Boston.

The only dicey part of the game for the C's tonight was when it looked like JR Smith might be hurt....

 

[intlzncster]

Celtics should have put that one away hard a number of times. Bad shot selection and mental errors gave the Cavs a real opportunity. Cavs just didn't take advantage.

 

[champs99and04]

You said Embiid is the best center. Prove it or stop.
Embiid is among a group of centers/big men of which I named a few but the complete list is in the PER post/link. I'm not going to debate Mr no facts on each and every one of them. Davis is the best center. Over the past 4 years which is Embiid's career to date I'd have rather had Goebert than Embiid. Production proves it, $ proves it, Utah's record proves it.
Going forward Embiid IF he's healthy but I would not bet on that and more importantly I don't think LeBron is betting his career on that.

Embiid is on a different level than Gobert and KAT in my opinion. I'm not sure PER will tell the story with that one. I'm not sure the Boston series will tell the story, either, as I don't think he played that well and had his weaknesses exposed. In some respects, he's definitely been crowned prematurely - his per possession numbers are somewhat inflated by the way his minutes have been managed. Durability and conditioning are major concerns where they aren't for a player like Towns, whose superior offensive game allowed him to drag a sad sack franchise to the postseason at the age of 22.

But the distinction between star player and generational player is an important one, and it jumps off the screen to me every time I watch Embiid play in a way I haven't seen since LeBron. The way he completely transforms the floor on both ends is difficult to qualify unless you're watching him and only him every possession. Go back and watch game 3 of the Miami series, 4th quarter. Absolutely dominant.

LeBron was a much better player at age 24 than Embiid was, so the comparison needs to be made cautiously. Davis is certainly a better player at this point in time. Cousins might be - unfortunately, he's yet to find to the right situation and I worry that he's been stigmatized as a result of the disfunction he's endured. Replace Embiid with a healthy Cousins and I think Philly goes to the finals. He's that good.

In terms of size, touch, and instinct, though, LeBron's the player that comes to mind when I watch Embiid. I think the numbers - on/off splits, synergy data, adjusted +/- - bear that out. He's not tracking at the same rate as LeBron or any other great that grew up playing the game, but he's starting from a similar foundation of physical ability. The one question is durability.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Embiid is on a different level than Gobert and KAT in my opinion. I'm not sure PER will tell the story with that one. I'm not sure the Boston series will tell the story, either, as I don't think he played that well and had his weaknesses exposed. In some respects, he's definitely been crowned prematurely - his per possession numbers are somewhat inflated by the way his minutes have been managed. Durability and conditioning are major concerns where they aren't for a player like Towns, whose superior offensive game allowed him to drag a sad sack franchise to the postseason at the age of 22.

But the distinction between star player and generational player is an important one, and it jumps off the screen to me every time I watch Embiid play in a way I haven't seen since LeBron. The way he completely transforms the floor on both ends is difficult to qualify unless you're watching him and only him every possession. Go back and watch game 3 of the Miami series, 4th quarter. Absolutely dominant.

LeBron was a much better player at age 24 than Embiid was, so the comparison needs to be made cautiously. Davis is certainly a better player at this point in time. Cousins might be - unfortunately, he's yet to find to the right situation and I worry that he's been stigmatized as a result of the disfunction he's endured. Replace Embiid with a healthy Cousins and I think Philly goes to the finals. He's that good.

In terms of size, touch, and instinct, though, LeBron's the player that comes to mind when I watch Embiid. I think the numbers - on/off splits, synergy data, adjusted +/- - bear that out. He's not tracking at the same rate as LeBron or any other great that grew up playing the game, but he's starting from a similar foundation of physical ability. The one question is durability.

Overall I pretty much agree other than tap the breaks way before LeBron. You'd have to go back in time to Patrick Ewing or David Robinson or best comps Ralph Sampson & Bill Walton to identify big men that changed the game/dominated the league. Its needs to be latter two not because their games are similar, but b/c the qualifier on if healthy & stamina is so important. Embiid was the best player on the floor vs. Celtics and yet his team consistently failed in crunch time. This is a major current flaw and addressing his overall fitness & game fitness are both heavily dependent on staying healthy & playing minutes. Maybe the Fultz collision was a fluke that exacerbated the game stamina, or maybe Embiid is Glass Joe. I hope he stay healthy for an extended period and we get to see what he can do and I expect that will occur with the Sixers current team + an interesting draft pick.

Celts - Cavs series is so weird with Jekyll & Hyde from both teams. My ultimate theory on the series also rests in stamina and I think after 82 games LeBron cannot bring the necessary thunder for 5 straight every other nights. So now question is did he conserve enough last night to bring it Friday and Sunday? I think the Celtics have to go for it in Cleveland like they did last night & keep the rotation at 7. LeBron will absolutely have the adrenaline to be superman in a game 7, but they have to push him and try to squeak one out Friday and if not make certain it takes a herculean effort to beat them.

Somewhat hopeful that they have a chance Friday given how badly they shot last night and still won. Then again the bad overall shooting of 36.5% is very misleading as their lead was due to the early hot 3 point shooting and I'm sure their effective FG% was better than 50% in first half and over 50 thru building the insurmountable 20 point lead. They aren't making that many 3's in a first half on the road & will need to stop the trend of missing so many bunnies.

 

[the Q]

Overall I pretty much agree other than tap the breaks way before LeBron. You'd have to go back in time to Patrick Ewing or David Robinson or best comps Ralph Sampson & Bill Walton to identify big men that changed the game/dominated the league. Its needs to be latter two not because their games are similar, but b/c the qualifier on if healthy & stamina is so important. Embiid was the best player on the floor vs. Celtics and yet his team consistently failed in crunch time. This is a major current flaw and addressing his overall fitness & game fitness are both heavily dependent on staying healthy & playing minutes. Maybe the Fultz collision was a fluke that exacerbated the game stamina, or maybe Embiid is Glass Joe. I hope he stay healthy for an extended period and we get to see what he can do and I expect that will occur with the Sixers current team + an interesting draft pick.

Celts - Cavs series is so weird with Jekyll & Hyde from both teams. My ultimate theory on the series also rests in stamina and I think after 82 games LeBron cannot bring the necessary thunder for 5 straight every other nights. So now question is did he conserve enough last night to bring it Friday and Sunday? I think the Celtics have to go for it in Cleveland like they did last night & keep the rotation at 7. LeBron will absolutely have the adrenaline to be superman in a game 7, but they have to push him and try to squeak one out Friday and if not make certain it takes a herculean effort to beat them.

Somewhat hopeful that they have a chance Friday given how badly they shot last night and still won. Then again the bad overall shooting of 36.5% is very misleading as their lead was due to the early hot 3 point shooting and I'm sure their effective FG% was better than 50% in first half and over 50 thru building the insurmountable 20 point lead. They aren't making that many 3's in a first half on the road & will need to stop the trend of missing so many bunnies.

Shaq absolutely changed the game. They ignored half the rule book and created a bunch of bs rules so teams could stop him.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'm done with the prediction game (other than a GS championship), as I've been wrong. Rockets pulled that one out so credit there, but the Warriors did themselves wrong by taking bad shots.

So for the next 3 years or so, they are gonna be on top. They are all 28-30. In that time, Boston will only have one guy who could start on their team outside the Big 4. For the record, Big Al is more than 2 years older than Steph.

If Boston can pick up a Kevin Durant, then the calculus changes.

What does this mean? Are you talking about Kyrie? I think the assumption that Klay Thompson is better than Jaylen Brown, even right now, is a stretch. The belief that he will remain so for the next couple of years, when he's 28 years old, is likely straight up wrong. I'd take Brown over him over the next three years. If GS loses Durant, then who do they have at that spot who is better than Tatum? You think Looney is better than Al?

Curry and Green are unique talents, especially since Green is really their point forward. Durant is an incredible talent. But I think the most critical aspect of the success GS has is in the way they play as a team, not because their players are somehow all better than those on other teams. Green could have been drafted by the Knicks and never gotten off the bench if they didn't understand how to use him.

I really hope the Celtics get to the finals, so we get a sneak preview, understanding that Boston is way under-manned.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Shaq absolutely changed the game. They ignored half the rule book and created a bunch of bs rules so teams could stop him.

Yeah good point, I guess cuz Shaq is indestructible early years Mike Tyson compared to Embiid's Glass Joe I didn't even think of him. Embiid's health & game makes it impossible to compare him to Shaq or Kareem in terms of big men that absolutely changed the game via domination by brute size & strength. Embiid is more Dirk 2.0 than inverted (taking game from inside to out) Shaq. But certainly comparing Sixers to Magic Shaq & Penny years is a great comp in terms of two ascendant superstars.

 

[Dogdeacon]

What does this mean? Are you talking about Kyrie? I think the assumption that Klay Thompson is better than Jaylen Brown, even right now, is a stretch. The belief that he will remain so for the next couple of years, when he's 28 years old, is likely straight up wrong. I'd take Brown over him over the next three years. If GS loses Durant, then who do they have at that spot who is better than Tatum? You think Looney is better than Al?

Curry and Green are unique talents, especially since Green is really their point forward. Durant is an incredible talent. But I think the most critical aspect of the success GS has is in the way they play as a team, not because their players are somehow all better than those on other teams. Green could have been drafted by the Knicks and never gotten off the bench if they didn't understand how to use him.

I really hope the Celtics get to the finals, so we get a sneak preview, understanding that Boston is way under-manned.

Durant & Klay both are free agents after next season, very unlikely the Warriors as currently constructed are together past that. Draymond & Iggy expire the following year when absolutely their roster will change. So even if the Warriors break the bank for both Durant (making 11MM less than Steph!) & Klay (making 19MM less than Steph!!) which I'm not even sure is possible under the rules, its over in at most 2 seasons.

Given that Jaylen Brown is still on his rookie deal and Klay will be in a contract year expect Thompson to remain ahead of Brown for at least one more season.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Durant & Klay both are free agents after next season, very unlikely the Warriors as currently constructed are together past that. Draymond & Iggy expire the following year when absolutely their roster will change. So even if the Warriors break the bank for both Durant (making 11MM less than Steph!) & Klay (making 19MM less than Steph!!) which I'm not even sure is possible under the rules, its over in at most 2 seasons.

Given that Jaylen Brown is still on his rookie deal and Klay will be in a contract year expect Thompson to remain ahead of Brown for at least one more season.

What does the rookie deal matter? Embiid is on his rookie deal is he not? I'm not convinced Thompson is much better than Brown right now, let alone next year, given the improvement Brown made this year. Brown is a better rebounder and defender. Thompson clearly has a better outside stroke.

One of the most ridiculous things that happens in the NBA is that certain players become anointed as "stars" and they are therefore perceived differently. The gaps are never as big as they are perceived to be, except for guys like LeBron.

 

[Walker11]

The next time I see a Cuse or PC fan state that our fan base is full of entitled and delusional fans and I feel intense disagreement, I will remember we are also largely Celtics fans.

Joking. Mostly. Klay >. Not really close right now.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Klay >. Not really close right now.

Hmmmm. What did the filth filter catch?

 

[auror]

The next time I see a Cuse or PC fan state that our fan base is full of entitled and delusional fans and I feel intense disagreement, I will remember we are also largely Celtics fans.

Joking. Mostly. Klay >. Not really close right now.

I wouldn't trade Jaylen for Klay straight up, but if I were picking teams for a game tomorrow I'd take Klay before him.

 

[Dogdeacon]

What does the rookie deal matter? Embiid is on his rookie deal is he not? I'm not convinced Thompson is much better than Brown right now, let alone next year, given the improvement Brown made this year. Brown is a better rebounder and defender. Thompson clearly has a better outside stroke.

One of the most ridiculous things that happens in the NBA is that certain players become anointed as "stars" and they are therefore perceived differently. The gaps are never as big as they are perceived to be, except for guys like LeBron.

I simply meant that Klay has +20MM in incentives to workout, eat right, etc.. this offseason and next season and I think this motivating factor that Brown doesn't have makes an impact on next year's performance. Contract year phenomenon that doesn't apply to Brown yet.

Add to that the Celtics figuring out how to balance 4 stars/scorers between Kyrie, Tatum, Hayward & Brown and even though Thompson is the 3rd among greater options on the Warriors, Brown is the 4th option (and sees the ball less than Horford) on next year's Celtics. I mean unless the Celtics start a Warriors-esque death lineup of Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Hayward and Horford, Jaylen Brown is the most likely 6th man or odd man out when they need to go bigger/bulkier with Baynes or Morris.

P.S. Man would it be great if the Celtics advance to finals and Kyrie & Hayward say they've been scrimmaging secretly and are ready to go. We'd have a legit finals.

 

[Mr. French]

I wouldn't trade Jaylen for Klay straight up, but if I were picking teams for a game tomorrow I'd take Klay before him.

Good distinction, people forget that’s 2 different things.

Very pertinent for the Embiid argument too. I’m taking a couple guys over him today, bc he’s not there YET, but I dno that I trade him for anyone.

 

[the Q]

Yeah good point, I guess cuz Shaq is indestructible early years Mike Tyson compared to Embiid's Glass Joe I didn't even think of him. Embiid's health & game makes it impossible to compare him to Shaq or Kareem in terms of big men that absolutely changed the game via domination by brute size & strength. Embiid is more Dirk 2.0 than inverted (taking game from inside to out) Shaq. But certainly comparing Sixers to Magic Shaq & Penny years is a great comp in terms of two ascendant superstars.

Shaq was the immovable force for like 15 years. I could probably post hundreds of "post up" pics off google images here and show just how absurdly the NBA ignored the rules to give teams any remote chance of guarding him. It's embarrassing. It's just more proof the NBA is sports entertainment, it's not sports.

 

[the Q]

Good distinction, people forget that’s 2 different things.

Very pertinent for the Embiid argument too. I’m taking a couple guys over him today, bc he’s not there YET, but I dno that I trade him for anyone.

by the same logic shouldn't you trade him for KAT since KAT is on his rookie deal?

I mean there's a strong argument you could make for any of about 5 guys.

And Aldridge rated very highly at C this year as well.

KAT and Embiid are different. I wonder if KAT will ever figure it out defensively. Because if he does, he could be in the Hakeem territory.

 

[Walker11]

Good distinction, people forget that’s 2 different things.

Very pertinent for the Embiid argument too. I’m taking a couple guys over him today, bc he’s not there YET, but I dno that I trade him for anyone.

It is a necessary distinction. Every team has a different cap outlook and roster makeup and that is also a factor. My opinion is that a large majority of teams would prefer Klay over JB, even considering age and contract. I wouldn't blink unless I was capped out with a cheap owner.