NBA Discussion 2016/2017

[champs99and04]

Walker cooling down second half of the pre-all star stretch while IT elevating his game during this period may cost Kemba a spot in the ASG, I sure hope not. I really don't see how both KW and IT can get all star bids, they seem to fill the same niche role as stars and guys like Kyrie and Rose will get major votes even if they don't suit up for a single game simply because. Lots of competition for guys this year.

Has Kemba really cooled down, though? Granted he hasn't been putting up the same numbers as IT, but he went for 37 last night and his numbers on the year are still extremely good.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Has Kemba really cooled down, though? Granted he hasn't been putting up the same numbers as IT, but he went for 37 last night and his numbers on the year are still extremely good.

Before the last couple games Kemba had slowed down a bit, not substantial but his peak was earlier in the year. All the top PG's in the east are performing this year, it's gonna be tough to weed them out come ASW.

 

[BUConn10]

IT really scores alot, shoots 90%+ at the line (hence his great TS%) but his overall game is not better than walkers. I have many metrics that back this, including RPM, VORP, and BPM. but people who dont really delve into stats wont get this, they see IT scoring so much and think he's a better player, when actual advanced metrics support its wall vs Walker for second best pg in the east.

I agree, but the people who make up the bulk of NBA ASG voting have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[nomar]

Yup. Supposedly C's could have gotten him with #3 (Brown), #16 (French stash) and Crowder

Crazy they passed on that

Brown is terrible, no idea if stash will ever play here and Butler is better than Crowder straight up

That would be crazy if it were true. If you think the Celts had an offer on the table from the Bulls that didn't include one or both of the next Nets picks, you're nuts.

 

[Walker11]

Kemba's "bad stretch" was basically him doing what he did last year, when he was quite good and a borderline All Star but less efficient on jumpers. I don't mind IT getting a nod over Kemba even though his size kills him on D. They both deserve it more than Kyrie but we know that isn't happening. Lowry is on another level and has been playing like a top 5 player in the League.

Kyrie is an interesting guy to talk about. There was a piece on him two weeks ago about how advanced stats see him. Hint - its not good. I feel he is underrated by a lot of the general hoops media and overrated by casual fans. His best skill is arguably the most important skill in playoff basketball but his lack of D really drags down his value in the regular season. Compare Lowry vs. Kyrie over the past two seasons, both playoffs and regular season. Lowry is far better in the regular season and Kyrie is far better in the playoffs.

 

[champs99and04]

Kemba's "bad stretch" was basically him doing what he did last year, when he was quite good and a borderline All Star but less efficient on jumpers. I don't mind IT getting a nod over Kemba even though his size kills him on D. They both deserve it more than Kyrie but we know that isn't happening. Lowry is on another level and has been playing like a top 5 player in the League.

Kyrie is an interesting guy to talk about. There was a piece on him two weeks ago about how advanced stats see him. Hint - its not good. I feel he is underrated by a lot of the general hoops media and overrated by casual fans. His best skill is arguably the most important skill in playoff basketball but his lack of D really drags down his value in the regular season. Compare Lowry vs. Kyrie over the past two seasons, both playoffs and regular season. Lowry is far better in the regular season and Kyrie is far better in the playoffs.

Kyrie is a fascinating figure. I think he's one of those guys who is emblematic of the limitations of advanced stats. How many other guys on the planet win that series against Golden State last year, even with LeBron? I don't think Kemba does. Reminded me a bit of Dirk a few years ago. We knew there were guys better than him, but for a couple months he sure looked like the best damn player in the universe. Not trying to say that what Kyrie did was nearly as impressive, but the higher the stakes, the faster all of the advanced scouting and x's and o's tend to regress to pure driveway ball.

There is a certain moment of truth to the game that is obviously easier to delay/obscure during an 82 game regular season.

 

[Walker11]

Kyrie is a fascinating figure. I think he's one of those guys who is emblematic of the limitations of advanced stats. How many other guys on the planet win that series against Golden State last year, even with LeBron? I don't think Kemba does. Reminded me a bit of Dirk a few years ago. We knew there were guys better than him, but for a couple months he sure looked like the best damn player in the universe. Not trying to say that what Kyrie did was nearly as impressive, but the higher the stakes, the faster all of the advanced scouting and x's and o's tend to regress to pure driveway ball.

There is a certain moment of truth to the game that is obviously easier to delay/obscure during an 82 game regular season.

I think Kyrie is the best iso scoring guard in the League. I don't know if the stats bear that out but I can't think of any other G who has the combination of shot creation and difficult shot making.

 

[champs99and04]

I think Kyrie is the best iso scoring guard in the League. I don't know if the stats bear that out but I can't think of any other G who has the combination of shot creation and difficult shot making.

Yup, and that's an invaluable skill to have in high leverage spots when things get more compact & less is called. You clearly notice a difference with a guy like Curry - the oxygen that's there for him in the regular season tends to dissipate against teams who are well-coordinated against Golden State's motion and screening algorithms.

It isn't that Kyrie is the best player in basketball so much as his combination of handle, agility, and shot-making that you mentioned make him context proof. There is no situation, no defense, no anything that can negate what he does well. With a guy like Durant, you always expect his weaknesses - handle, body, etc. - to be illuminated when it's winning time. Plus, the fact that he's a guard empowers him with an autonomy that doesn't exist with a big or even a wing - if you're throwing the ball into Cousins late in the game, you're going to have to be pragmatic about it, and by the time he gets it, now maybe you have a double coming and it's too late in the clock to do anything about it.

I don't have any stats to back this up, either, but shooting percentages go down in high leverage spots because anything and everything that can be exposed - both individually and within the team structure - does. That doesn't seem to exist with Kyrie and it makes him unique.

 

[bballgrda]

I think Kyrie is the best iso scoring guard in the League. I don't know if the stats bear that out but I can't think of any other G who has the combination of shot creation and difficult shot making.

I dont his exact iso stats and too lazy to look it up. But pretty sure it was brought up in a recent Dunc'd On episode and his iso scoring stats (points per possession) were impressive.

Edit: bothered to look it up. Kyrie at 1.18 ppp.

NBA.com/Stats | Players Isolation

 

[Walker11]

I dont his exact iso stats and too lazy to look it up. But pretty sure it was brought up in a recent Dunc'd On episode and his iso scoring stats (points per possession) were insane.

TrueHoop. This is what I'm talking about when I say some NBA media underrate Kyrie. These guys said they would rather start a team with Hayward. Maybe an argument for regular season but if your goal is to win a championship, I don't see how he moves the needle. Edit. Maybe Dunc'd on as well, but I didn't hear.

 

[superjohn]

Kyrie is a fascinating figure. I think he's one of those guys who is emblematic of the limitations of advanced stats. How many other guys on the planet win that series against Golden State last year, even with LeBron? I don't think Kemba does. Reminded me a bit of Dirk a few years ago. We knew there were guys better than him, but for a couple months he sure looked like the best damn player in the universe. Not trying to say that what Kyrie did was nearly as impressive, but the higher the stakes, the faster all of the advanced scouting and x's and o's tend to regress to pure driveway ball.

There is a certain moment of truth to the game that is obviously easier to delay/obscure during an 82 game regular season.

Kyrie is unstoppable offensively but it's not fair to compare him to Dirk from his championship run. Kyrie was great offensively next to the best player in the league. Dirk was the best player in the league for that run on a team where the next best guy was Jason Terry.

 

[UConn990411]

Kyrie is a fascinating figure. I think he's one of those guys who is emblematic of the limitations of advanced stats. How many other guys on the planet win that series against Golden State last year, even with LeBron? I don't think Kemba does. Reminded me a bit of Dirk a few years ago. We knew there were guys better than him, but for a couple months he sure looked like the best damn player in the universe. Not trying to say that what Kyrie did was nearly as impressive, but the higher the stakes, the faster all of the advanced scouting and x's and o's tend to regress to pure driveway ball.

Bingo.

I love advanced stats, but they aren't the be-all end-all in basketball like they are for baseball. That's why I'm listening to a bunch of UConn fans say Kemba is better than IT.

 

[James]

Bingo.

I love advanced stats, but they aren't the be-all end-all in basketball like they are for baseball. That's why I'm listening to a bunch of UConn fans say Kemba is better than IT.

Not really, IT is better at getting FT's and converting them, thats about it (hence his gaudy TS%) His on/offs (not an advanced metric) aren't in kembas league, nor are his 3pt numbers. If you think IT is far an away a more impactful star than you aren't looking at traditional numbers , forget just advanced metrics.

Kyrie lillard and IT dont stack up in RPM or other metrics because they stink on defense @champs99and04 its pretty simple.

 

[Scoe]

Solid game by Kemba in a win, 20 pts 9 assists, 9 of those pts came in the 4th. Wesbrook had 33, 15, and 8. Westbrook -8 Kemba +9.

 

[Scoe]

What a surprise the Knicks still suck, is Pringles coaching the Knicks again.

 

[James]

What a surprise the Knicks still suck, is Pringles coaching the Knicks again.

no he's busy winning coach of the month awards out west ha.






Friggin wade, even if DDR takes over the second backcourt slot its a monster uphill climb for walker. Looking like another snub

 

[BUConn10]

Korver to Cleveland? Good move for the Cavs if true.

Also Drummond not even in the top 10 of all star voting.

 

[Scoe]

no he's busy winning coach of the month awards out west ha.

I brought the name up because of the Knicks lack of defense. You can only make so many excuses for Melo it's always his teammates or coaches fault, never his fault. What a dumpster fire that franchise is.





Friggin wade, even if DDR takes over the second backcourt slot its a monster uphill climb for walker. Looking like another snub

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Korver to Cleveland? Good move for the Cavs if true.

Also Drummond not even in the top 10 of all star voting.

Drummond hasn't taken a step forward this year, arguably a small step back. Not a good defender, needs to shoot better and add to his offensive arsenal

 

[champs99and04]

Kyrie is unstoppable offensively but it's not fair to compare him to Dirk from his championship run. Kyrie was great offensively next to the best player in the league. Dirk was the best player in the league for that run on a team where the next best guy was Jason Terry.

Wasn't comparing them, just trying to highlight how certain skill-sets - like being able to get buckets, no matter what - might be less fungible than others.

Was Dirk the best overall player in basketball in 2011? No, but he was the best for a couple months.

 

[champs99and04]

Not really, IT is better at getting FT's and converting them, thats about it (hence his gaudy TS%) His on/offs (not an advanced metric) aren't in kembas league, nor are his 3pt numbers. If you think IT is far an away a more impactful star than you aren't looking at traditional numbers , forget just advanced metrics.

Kyrie lillard and IT dont stack up in RPM or other metrics because they stink on defense @champs99and04 its pretty simple.

I'm not arguing the metrics or even the value. I think there is probably is a compelling case to be made that Kemba has been the second best point in the East this year. I just don't know if that makes him better than Kyrie. He might be, he just hasn't really had a chance to prove it because the variables are so different.

 

[Kemba'sYogurt]

 

[James]

Hornets Shootaround | Jeremy Lamb - 1/7/17


Lamb starts in place of batum tonight vs SAS. Should be interesting.

 

[James]

Rudy Gay with 15 pts in the FIRST quarter vs the Warriors , he's going to work.

 

[Scoe]

When you think you have seen it all from the Knicks you see more dysfunction from the Knicks, why would anyone spend a dime watching this team it goes beyond losing. Rose is such a fragile mental midget, him.