OT: - MVP- Judge or Raleigh? | Page 6 | The Boneyard
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OT: MVP- Judge or Raleigh?

superjohn said:
Thankfully common sense won out with the voters and Judge won MVP.
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The MVP and Cy Young awards were all a joke and shows how the accounting nerds are ruining sports. Voters can take their fWAR and shove it where the sun don't shine.

Put Raleigh in a Yankees uniform and put Judge in Seattle with the same numbers and Ral3igg is a unanimous Pic.

Had Judge stayed healthy all year his numbers get bumped up and plays the field, he'd be worthy.


10-10 and 13-6 won the Cy Youngs and they gifted Judge the MVP. It's almost as if winning games as a pitcher is a detractors and doing everything g but winning starts is a badge of honor.

Only major award they got right was Ohtani as NL MVP..
 
Chin Diesel said:
The MVP and Cy Young awards were all a joke and shows how the accounting nerds are ruining sports. Voters can take their fWAR and shove it where the sun don't shine.

Put Raleigh in a Yankees uniform and put Judge in Seattle with the same numbers and Ral3igg is a unanimous Pic.

Had Judge stayed healthy all year his numbers get bumped up and plays the field, he'd be worthy.


10-10 and 13-6 won the Cy Youngs and they gifted Judge the MVP. It's almost as if winning games as a pitcher is a detractors and doing everything g but winning starts is a badge of honor.

Only major award they got right was Ohtani as NL MVP..
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Cy Young is to award the best pitchers, not the most winning pitchers, as that's often a product of the team they play on. They nailed the Cy Youngs - not even debatable. There is possibly some light debate on the AL MVP based on the position stuff, but I'm ok with Judge getting it. His batting numbers were just that much better.
 
Chin Diesel said:
The MVP and Cy Young awards were all a joke and shows how the accounting nerds are ruining sports. Voters can take their fWAR and shove it where the sun don't shine.

Put Raleigh in a Yankees uniform and put Judge in Seattle with the same numbers and Ral3igg is a unanimous Pic.

Had Judge stayed healthy all year his numbers get bumped up and plays the field, he'd be worthy.


10-10 and 13-6 won the Cy Youngs and they gifted Judge the MVP. It's almost as if winning games as a pitcher is a detractors and doing everything g but winning starts is a badge of honor.

Only major award they got right was Ohtani as NL MVP..
Expand ...

Like you man but way off on this. Check Johnny Bench and his 2 MVPs those were well deserved. The best catcher in baseball as he was known, also hitting .293 and .270 in those years with big stats for his days. I mean 45/145 in 1970 were great numbers especially for a guy who couldn’t say “I think I’ll rest and Dan Hurley today” no he caught 159 games, all but 3 that year. Cal caught 120 and he did it well. But .247 and .244 with RISP isn’t something that should rewarded and if baseball did the only reason they would’ve was to change it from the deserving man Aaron Judge. Very good RFer (and CF) when not injured and the rest of the numbers speak for themselves, I mean OBP, BA, hitting .333 with RISP and walks (many intentional) they all count.

This was actually closer than it should’ve been only because of the position the other guy played. That would’ve been awful!

They got it right wasn’t that tough.
 
Had Dumper won, I wouldn't have considered it a travesty of justice, but I'm glad that the narrative didn't win over the numbers. I give Raleigh lots of extra credit for playing a demanding position, but it's still not enough to overcome Judge's historic-level offensive numbers.
 
I don't think it was right or wrong with either Judge or Raleigh. Both were deserving and different arguments.
 
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All of sudden BA is a big deal again? This guy is a catcher, never gets a pitch off.
 
Waquoit said:
All of sudden BA is a big deal again? This guy is a catcher, never gets a pitch off.
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When your BA is .247 compared to .331 it's a big deal. Raleigh caught 120 games so he had 42 games off as a catcher.
 
Chin Diesel said:
The MVP and Cy Young awards were all a joke and shows how the accounting nerds are ruining sports. Voters can take their fWAR and shove it where the sun don't shine.

Put Raleigh in a Yankees uniform and put Judge in Seattle with the same numbers and Ral3igg is a unanimous Pic.

Had Judge stayed healthy all year his numbers get bumped up and plays the field, he'd be worthy.


10-10 and 13-6 won the Cy Youngs and they gifted Judge the MVP. It's almost as if winning games as a pitcher is a detractors and doing everything g but winning starts is a badge of honor.

Only major award they got right was Ohtani as NL MVP..
Expand ...
Dig into the numbers a bit more and you'll see why this is foolish. Just a few things:

1) Raleigh hit .229 in the 2nd half - was basically HR or nothing
2) Hit under .200 in 2 consecutive months (July AND August) - when you're supposed to be 'carrying' the team
3) Was barely the MVP on his own team (JRod had a strong case for being more valuable) - their pitching carried them
4) His defense was average - and while Judge DHd a lot after his injury, he was still well above average in RF
5) Judge carried the Yankees in Sept when they were fighting for the playoffs. They likely don't make the playoffs without him. He hit .370 with .527/.765/1.292 splits in Sept
6) Judge did something that has only been done twice before in history - to lead the league in BA AND hit 50+ HRs - and first time in 60-70 years

The voting should not have been as close as it was. The narrative was pushed by the media b/c he hit 60 HRs. If he had only hit, say 50, Judge likely is unanimous.
 
Dooch said:
Dig into the numbers a bit more and you'll see why this is foolish. Just a few things:

1) Raleigh hit .229 in the 2nd half - was basically HR or nothing
2) Hit under .200 in 2 consecutive months (July AND August) - when you're supposed to be 'carrying' the team
3) Was barely the MVP on his own team (JRod had a strong case for being more valuable) - their pitching carried them
4) His defense was average - and while Judge DHd a lot after his injury, he was still well above average in RF
5) Judge carried the Yankees in Sept when they were fighting for the playoffs. They likely don't make the playoffs without him. He hit .370 with .527/.765/1.292 splits in Sept
6) Judge did something that has only been done twice before in history - to lead the league in BA AND hit 50+ HRs - and first time in 60-70 years

The voting should not have been as close as it was. The narrative was pushed by the media b/c he hit 60 HRs. If he had only hit, say 50, Judge likely is unanimous.
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One question. Are you a Yankees fan?
 
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Deepster said:
One question. Are you a Yankees fan?
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You know I’m a Yankee fan, a baseball fan and everything he stated that was fact Deep doesn’t matter what fan you are right? This shouldn’t have been as close as it even was. If Judge was a 6’7 catcher there wouldn’t have been a 2nd place 😉
 
mauconnfan said:
You know I’m a Yankee fan, a baseball fan and everything he stated that was fact Deep doesn’t matter what fan you are right? This shouldn’t have been as close as it even was. If Judge was a 6’7 catcher there wouldn’t have been a 2nd place 😉
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And another Yankee fan chimes in....
 
Dooch said:
Tell me what I said was with my pinstripe colored glasses on?
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First off, I'll say I thought both are worthy and whoever won, the other person easily could have won and deserved it. Both were MVP caliber seasons without a doubt.

You completely dismissed Raleigh's accomplishments.

  • He had the best offensive season ever for a catcher and a switch hitter (and that includes Mantle).
  • The wear and tear on a catcher is a factor, as seen in every catcher's production levels at the plate, that's why you also conversely argue against Dan Hurley's winning it.
  • He calls every pitch of every inning of every game and their staff was exceptional this year....so to credit Judge's defense in RF and completely dismiss Raleigh's contributions is very "pinstripe colored glasses" for sure.
  • He had a WAR of 9.1 which trailed only Judge and Ohtani. The next closest WAR for a catcher this season was 4.7 and his WAR this year was the 3rd highest ever by a catcher.
You mention NONE of that. All you pointed to was a couple months he slumped (everyone does), you undermined his defense and you credited Judge for carrying his team when Raleigh's team actually went farther.
 
.247 vs .331 average that's a pretty big deal but hey I'm a Yankees fan though
 
Last edited:
Deepster said:
First off, I'll say I thought both are worthy and whoever won, the other person easily could have won and deserved it. Both were MVP caliber seasons without a doubt.

You completely dismissed Raleigh's accomplishments.

  • He had the best offensive season ever for a catcher and a switch hitter (and that includes Mantle).
  • The wear and tear on a catcher is a factor, as seen in every catcher's production levels at the plate, that's why you also conversely argue against Dan Hurley's winning it.
  • He calls every pitch of every inning of every game and their staff was exceptional this year....so to credit Judge's defense in RF and completely dismiss Raleigh's contributions is very "pinstripe colored glasses" for sure.
  • He had a WAR of 9.1 which trailed only Judge and Ohtani. The next closest WAR for a catcher this season was 4.7 and his WAR this year was the 3rd highest ever by a catcher.
You mention NONE of that. All you pointed to was a couple months he slumped (everyone does), you undermined his defense and you credited Judge for carrying his team when Raleigh's team actually went farther.
Expand ...
But I thought you can't bring up postseason success it's a team sport right wasn't this your argument against Jeter sounds a bit contradictory?
 
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Deepster said:
First off, I'll say I thought both are worthy and whoever won, the other person easily could have won and deserved it. Both were MVP caliber seasons without a doubt.

You completely dismissed Raleigh's accomplishments.

  • He had the best offensive season ever for a catcher and a switch hitter (and that includes Mantle).
  • The wear and tear on a catcher is a factor, as seen in every catcher's production levels at the plate, that's why you also conversely argue against Dan Hurley's winning it.
  • He calls every pitch of every inning of every game and their staff was exceptional this year....so to credit Judge's defense in RF and completely dismiss Raleigh's contributions is very "pinstripe colored glasses" for sure.
  • He had a WAR of 9.1 which trailed only Judge and Ohtani. The next closest WAR for a catcher this season was 4.7 and his WAR this year was the 3rd highest ever by a catcher.
You mention NONE of that. All you pointed to was a couple months he slumped (everyone does), you undermined his defense and you credited Judge for carrying his team when Raleigh's team actually went farther.
Expand ...

Again 120 games behind the plate not exactly the 159 Bench caught when he batted .293 w 45/145 and won the MVP. Bench would’ve loved to D H I’m sure.

Seriously a .247 guy with a .244 RISP just can’t be close to a guy who’s a great hitter with also very good power numbers. But let’s penalize the better baseball player because he’s not a catcher? Makes sense😲
 
Last edited:
mauconnfan said:
Again 120 games behind the plate not exactly the 159 Bench caught when he batted .293 w 45/145 and won the MVP. Bench would’ve loved to D H I’m sure.

Seriously a .247 guy with a .244 RISP just can’t be close to a guy who’s a great hitter with also very good power numbers. But let’s penalize the better baseball player because he’s not a catcher? Makes sense😲
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Facts show the mvp case for Raleigh wasn't close had Raleigh caught 150 games and batted .300 then there's an argument, .270 average at the very least. When the average is closer to .200 then 300 the argument is laughable.
 
Scoe said:
But I thought you can't bring up postseason success it's a team sport right wasn't this your argument against Jeter sounds a bit contradictory?
Expand ...
He brought up the playoff angle.
 
Scoe said:
Facts show the mvp case for Raleigh wasn't close had Raleigh caught 150 games and batted .300 then there's an argument, .270 average at the very least. When the average is closer to .200 then 300 the argument is laughable.
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What "facts" are you talking about?
 
Deepster said:
First off, I'll say I thought both are worthy and whoever won, the other person easily could have won and deserved it. Both were MVP caliber seasons without a doubt.

You completely dismissed Raleigh's accomplishments.

  • He had the best offensive season ever for a catcher and a switch hitter (and that includes Mantle).
  • The wear and tear on a catcher is a factor, as seen in every catcher's production levels at the plate, that's why you also conversely argue against Dan Hurley's winning it.
  • He calls every pitch of every inning of every game and their staff was exceptional this year....so to credit Judge's defense in RF and completely dismiss Raleigh's contributions is very "pinstripe colored glasses" for sure.
  • He had a WAR of 9.1 which trailed only Judge and Ohtani. The next closest WAR for a catcher this season was 4.7 and his WAR this year was the 3rd highest ever by a catcher.
You mention NONE of that. All you pointed to was a couple months he slumped (everyone does), you undermined his defense and you credited Judge for carrying his team when Raleigh's team actually went farther.
Expand ...
Raleigh didn't have the best offensive season ever for a catcher. You should know that as a Mets fan. He also didn't have a better season as a switch hitter than Mantle did.

The vote never should've been as close as it was but I'm just happy they got it right.
 
Deepster said:
First off, I'll say I thought both are worthy and whoever won, the other person easily could have won and deserved it. Both were MVP caliber seasons without a doubt.

You completely dismissed Raleigh's accomplishments.

  • He had the best offensive season ever for a catcher and a switch hitter (and that includes Mantle).
  • The wear and tear on a catcher is a factor, as seen in every catcher's production levels at the plate, that's why you also conversely argue against Dan Hurley's winning it.
  • He calls every pitch of every inning of every game and their staff was exceptional this year....so to credit Judge's defense in RF and completely dismiss Raleigh's contributions is very "pinstripe colored glasses" for sure.
  • He had a WAR of 9.1 which trailed only Judge and Ohtani. The next closest WAR for a catcher this season was 4.7 and his WAR this year was the 3rd highest ever by a catcher.
You mention NONE of that. All you pointed to was a couple months he slumped (everyone does), you undermined his defense and you credited Judge for carrying his team when Raleigh's team actually went farther.
Expand ...

  • First off, this award is solely based on regular season. Where did I bring up the post-season, at all? What I did say was Judge carried the Yankees to the playoffs in September and they likely miss without him.
  • Secondly, I'm not dismissing Raleigh's season at all. I was simply pointing out why Judge deserved it over him.
  • He did not have the best season ever for a catcher, or switch hitter. He hit the most HRs for catcher/switch hitter, but his overall season was not 'best ever' for either

- Where are you getting your WAR from? Judge was 9.7 and Cal was 7.4, which takes into account offense and defense

- Cal's defense was middle of the pack by most metrics. Yes, RF is 'easier' on the body, but Judge is still one of the best RFers in the game, and almost no one tries to run on him (when his arm is healthy of course)

- Another false narrative out there that I'm tired of hearing when people don't do a lick of research, is that Yankee Stadium is a 'bandbox' and Raleigh would have hit 70+ if he played there, lol Sites that track every single batted ball (Baseball Savant, for example) have shown that Raleigh would have LESS HRs had he played in YS and Judge would have more if he played in Seattle. Not to mention Judge hit 1 more HR on the road than he did at home....


I haven't even brought up the huge statistical discrepancy between the 2 (outside of HRs and RBIs) in every other meaningful stat there is
 
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