OT: - MVP- Judge or Raleigh? | Page 3 | The Boneyard

OT: MVP- Judge or Raleigh?

Buzzyboy said:
Raleigh is having a Roger Maris season where he, out of nowhere hits so many more home runs than he's ever hit in a season and is a really good defensive catcher whereas Maris was an outstanding defensive outfielder ... Judge and Mantle were obviously better and more consistent ballplayers but Maris won the MVP that year and Raleigh just might as well ... You almost think Raleigh was on steroids or something to hit so man;y more homers from anything he's ever done and well into his career ... I'm assuming not but it is weird
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Luis Gonzalez says hello.
 
The switch hitting comes up because Raleigh passed Mantle for most HR in a season by a switch hitter.
 
As a big Red Sox fan, I hate to pick a Yankee over anyone else, but Judge is the MVP. He has like 30 more hits and 30 more walks. I know his defense has dropped off some in recent years, but I would still give him the edge.
 
If it’s Raleigh it’s an absolute joke. This shouldn’t be close but I know it will. I mean he’s catching 75% of the games at a just above average rate as a defender. He’s DHd for quite a few HRs which Bench couldn’t do in his MVP year where he caught 159 games. He’s had a great year for a catcher and for him, a .226 lifetime hitter who’s hitting .247 which just doesn’t impress anyone add the fact he strikes out a ton 2nd place isn’t too bad. He’s 80 points or more behind in BA/OBP has less hits, walks, runs I mean this is baseball. Judge is a way above average OFer (please don’t tell me about one drop because that will tell me how little you know about baseball) one of the best in the game and minus the arm injury they do not take extra bags on the man. If you’re going to give it to a guy who’s had a great year for a position rather than a guy who has absolutely been a consistent terror in the AL for years it’s a joke. It could happen because the voters aren’t very good at understanding the game. Almost expect Judge to get screwed because idiots like change.
 
mauconnfan said:
If it’s Raleigh it’s an absolute joke. This shouldn’t be close but I know it will. I mean he’s catching 75% of the games at a just above average rate as a defender. He’s DHd for quite a few HRs which Bench couldn’t do in his MVP year where he caught 159 games. He’s had a great year for a catcher and for him, a .226 lifetime hitter who’s hitting .247 which just doesn’t impress anyone add the fact he strikes out a ton 2nd place isn’t too bad. He’s 80 points or more behind in BA/OBP has less hits, walks, runs I mean this is baseball. Judge is a way above average OFer (please don’t tell me about one drop because that will tell me how little you know about baseball) one of the best in the game and minus the arm injury they do not take extra bags on the man. If you’re going to give it to a guy who’s had a great year for a position rather than a guy who has absolutely been a consistent terror in the AL for years it’s a joke. It could happen because the voters aren’t very good at understanding the game. Almost expect Judge to get screwed because idiots like change.
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You're doing a lot of past accomplishments (or flaws) referencing for what is an annual award. What Raleigh or Judge has been in past seasons doesn't matter. Raleigh won the Gold Glove at catcher last year, so he's pretty good behind the plate.

I don't think anyone who hasn't played the sport realizes how involved a catcher is than any other position on the field. You are in the squat position for 120 pitches a game, catching 95mph fastballs. There is a reason the position doesn't have many great hitters historically, it's because it's highly specialized and with a lot of emphasis on the defensive end. It's practically accepted that you don't have to be a great hitter. It's hard to know exactly how much value to put on that and it's somewhat subjective. You can make arguments in either direction. Value is hard to quantify. I realize WAR is one data point heavily in favor of Judge. I know how this place works and wondering all those popping off in favor of Judge are Yankee fans.
 
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RuffRuff said:
You're doing a lot of past accomplishments (or flaws) referencing for what is an annual award. What Raleigh or Judge has been in past seasons doesn't matter. Raleigh won the Gold Glove at catcher last year, so he's pretty good behind the plate.

I don't think anyone who hasn't played the sport realizes how involved a catcher is than any other position on the field. You are in the squat position for 120 pitches a game, catching 95mph fastballs. There is a reason the position doesn't have many great hitters historically, it's because it's highly specialized and with a lot of emphasis on the defensive end. It's practically accepted that you don't have to be a great hitter. It's hard to know exactly how much value to put on that and it's somewhat subjective. You can make arguments in either direction. Value is hard to quantify. I realize WAR is one data point heavily in favor of Judge. I know how this place works and wondering all those popping off in favor of Judge are Yankee fans.
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I’m a Sox fan and the fact this even debatable is hilarious. Judge statistics are superior in just about every category except HR and RBI. His avg is nearly 80 points higher and his WAR destroy Cal. Judge is the best hitter in the game (playoff not included) and an elite defender.
Raleigh has had a great season for Seattle but the only reason he would/could win is the same reason Josh Allen won MVP last year over Lamar.
 
controlfade said:
I’m a Sox fan and the fact this even debatable is hilarious. Judge statistics are superior in just about every category except HR and RBI. His avg is nearly 80 points higher and his WAR destroy Cal. Judge is the best hitter in the game (playoff not included) and an elite defender.
Raleigh has had a great season for Seattle but the only reason he would/could win is the same reason Josh Allen won MVP last year over Lamar.
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RuffRuff said:
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So because he thinks it Cal he is right?

The one stat u cannot over look is WAR. This stat shows how valuable you are to your team!

When Judge was hurt and in a slump the Yankees were horrid. I have nothing against Cal, dude has put up big power numbers but he’s not the MVP IMO.
 
RuffRuff said:
You're doing a lot of past accomplishments (or flaws) referencing for what is an annual award. What Raleigh or Judge has been in past seasons doesn't matter. Raleigh won the Gold Glove at catcher last year, so he's pretty good behind the plate.

I don't think anyone who hasn't played the sport realizes how involved a catcher is than any other position on the field. You are in the squat position for 120 pitches a game, catching 95mph fastballs. There is a reason the position doesn't have many great hitters historically, it's because it's highly specialized and with a lot of emphasis on the defensive end. It's practically accepted that you don't have to be a great hitter. It's hard to know exactly how much value to put on that and it's somewhat subjective. You can make arguments in either direction. Value is hard to quantify. I realize WAR is one data point heavily in favor of Judge. I know how this place works and wondering all those popping off in favor of Judge are Yankee fans.
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I’m a baseball fan and yes a Yankee fan but by no means would I throw Judge out there if it wasn’t so obvious. The other guy is having a fantastic year but you did mention that because of the position and it’s hard to be a good hitter right? Well .248 isn’t a good hitter but his 60 HRs are impressive. Actually a career .226 hitter so he has improved there as well, so overall a special year. He deserved to be in the discussion I guess but by no means does he deserve the award.
 
controlfade said:
I’m a Sox fan and the fact this even debatable is hilarious. Judge statistics are superior in just about every category except HR and RBI. His avg is nearly 80 points higher and his WAR destroy Cal. Judge is the best hitter in the game (playoff not included) and an elite defender.
Raleigh has had a great season for Seattle but the only reason he would/could win is the same reason Josh Allen won MVP last year over Lamar.
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If it wasn't Judge and some rando putting up his stats, people would say the rando deserves it. People take for granted how good Judge is and how crazy it is what he's doing.

In Tony Gwynns 1994 season where he hit .394 the league average was .270

In 2025 with Judge hitting .330 the league average is .246

He's a few hits here and there away from having the most impressive average in the modern era along with all of the other insane advanced stats, HR, IBB, BB, hits, etc.
 
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JMick said:
If it wasn't Judge and some rando putting up his stats, people would say the rando deserves it. People take for granted how good Judge is and how crazy it is what he's doing.

In Tony Gwynns 1994 season where he hit .394 the league average was .270

In 2025 with Judge hitting .330 the league average is .246

He's a few hits here and there away from having the most impressive average in the modern era along with all of the other insane advanced stats, HR, IBB, BB, hits, etc.
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I agree, if it was any other player in the league with Judges numbers they win the MVP award easily.
 
JMick said:
If it wasn't Judge and some rando putting up his stats, people would say the rando deserves it. People take for granted how good Judge is and how crazy it is what he's doing.

In Tony Gwynns 1994 season where he hit .394 the league average was .270

In 2025 with Judge hitting .330 the league average is .246

He's a few hits here and there away from having the most impressive average in the modern era along with all of the other insane advanced stats, HR, IBB, BB, hits, etc.
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Judge also broke the American League record and has more intentional BB this season than any other teams total.
 
JMick said:
If it wasn't Judge and some rando putting up his stats, people would say the rando deserves it. People take for granted how good Judge is and how crazy it is what he's doing.

In Tony Gwynns 1994 season where he hit .394 the league average was .270

In 2025 with Judge hitting .330 the league average is .246

He's a few hits here and there away from having the most impressive average in the modern era along with all of the other insane advanced stats, HR, IBB, BB, hits, etc.
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This shows how much better Judge has been than everyone in baseball. Springer is batting .303 with 31 homers, Judge is batting .330 with 51 homers.




 
Last night Judge received his 35th intentional walk. Last time someone got a number that high was Ted Williams in
1955. Just about every season Judge leads the league in improper strikes called (as electronically measured). Well over 100 last year. Those who follow the Yankees know this has routinely gone on for years. This is based on pitches that are low (for him) are frequently called strikes due to the umps measuring by eye from ground off the plate instead of from above/below the knees due to his 6-7 height. This often translates to strikeouts vs walks or worse counts vs better counts to hit at. To also put him in perspective think also of someone like Walt Dropo (6-7) stealing bases and playing all outfield positions as a very good fielder as well.

I guess Raleigh, like Judge, could be one for the ages. I hope he continues to wreck havoc on the league because these guys will end up immortals and they are great for the game. And no PEDs!
 
WhereistheDove? said:
I get that it’s cool, but that should have zero bearing on his value when talking about the MVP. Judge’s offensive numbers vs. both LHP and RHP are better than Cal’s from either side of the plate. Interestingly, Judge is also arguably has more consistent outcomes against LHP and RHP than Cal, despite not being a switch hitter.
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Judge has learned over time to almost never swing at a pitch outside the strike zone. Plate coverage is extraordinary.
 
Jaydumo20 said:
Great question. Ive often thought about this phenomenon and I've come to realize that it does matter. Stevie Wonder's music exists as it is but it has more depth knowing he is blind. Confederacy of Dunces reads differently when you know Toole's life story.
In this case, the numbers are static but his switch hitting ability adds an extra dimension.
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If Stevie Wonder is more impressive because he doesn’t have the sense of sight, then isn’t Judge more impressive because he has to face right-handed pitching from the right side? OK, that’s not a fair analogy but neither is yours in terms of the MVP race. The question is, no matter what side of the late they’re hitting from, who’s better?
 
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nomar said:
If Stevie Wonder is more impressive because he doesn’t have the sense of sight, then isn’t Judge more impressive because he has to face right-handed pitching from the right side? OK, that’s not a fair analogy but neither is yours in terms of the MVP race. The question is, no matter what side of the late they’re hitting from, who’s better?
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I really dont think the switch hitting should be a factor in this case. It's not a strong enough variable, I agree. I was commenting on Dove's post why those things may matter and often matter to me.

We all know this is not an objective exercise though. MVP voting has no set criteria

In fairness and unfairness, Judge is a better player but Raleigh will probably win MVP.
 
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dennismenace said:
Last night Judge received his 35th intentional walk. Last time someone got a number that high was Ted Williams in
1955. Just about every season Judge leads the league in improper strikes called (as electronically measured). Well over 100 last year. Those who follow the Yankees know this has routinely gone on for years. This is based on pitches that are low (for him) are frequently called strikes due to the umps measuring by eye from ground off the plate instead of from above/below the knees due to his 6-7 height. This often translates to strikeouts vs walks or worse counts vs better counts to hit at. To also put him in perspective think also of someone like Walt Dropo (6-7) stealing bases and playing all outfield positions as a very good fielder as well.

I guess Raleigh, like Judge, could be one for the ages. I hope he continues to wreck havoc on the league because these guys will end up immortals and they are great for the game. And no PEDs!
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Anyone who watches Judge understands the low pitch strikes and what a disadvantage that is has been….his entire career.
 
jibsey said:
Anyone who watches Judge understands the low pitch strikes and what a disadvantage that is has been….his entire career.
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Anyone who watches Judge understands that he's 6'7"280 and what an advantage that it has been....his entire career.

He'd have my vote but let's not pretend him being a behemoth has made his career more difficult.
 
nomar said:
Anyone who watches Judge understands that he's 6'7"280 and what an advantage that it has been....his entire career.

He'd have my vote but let's not pretend him being a behemoth has made his career more difficult.
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A large power hitter has a BA advantage? He’s legging out hits? If the count is 0-1 and the ump calls a strike 4 inches below his knees going to O-2 the pitcher doesn’t have to throw another strike. This happens constantly to him.
Robotic balls/strikes could help him a lot.
Now, Raleigh is 6’3” 235 no small guy either.
 
WhereistheDove? said:
Honest question because it has been brought up a lot, why does Cal bring a switch hitter come up in this conversation at all?
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If he smoked a cigar while hitting, the same people would give him even more credit
 
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Both are having MVP seasons, so whoever wins it deserves this.

I’m a Yankees fan, so there’s inherent bias I can’t deny, but I feel weird if an MVP is batting .247 like Raleigh.
 
jibsey said:
A large power hitter has a BA advantage? He’s legging out hits? If the count is 0-1 and the ump calls a strike 4 inches below his knees going to O-2 the pitcher doesn’t have to throw another strike. This happens constantly to him.
Robotic balls/strikes could help him a lot.
Now, Raleigh is 6’3” 235 no small guy either.
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Are we arguing about the various specific things that make a guy a good hitter? I thought we were talking about his overall hitting. I would submit that him being a giant helps him more than it hurts him. That was my only point. If he was Cal Raleigh's size I don't think we'd have be having this discussion about who was having a better season.
 
nomar said:
Anyone who watches Judge understands that he's 6'7"280 and what an advantage that it has been....his entire career.

He'd have my vote but let's not pretend him being a behemoth has made his career more difficult.
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Well if (when) he does win the batting title this season he will be the tallest player ever to win it. It wasn't until the 1970's that someone taller than 6'4" (Dave Parker @ 6'5") won the title and there have only been a handful of tall ball players historically who won batting titles (Ted Williams, John Olerud, Frank Thomas are the only others taller than 6"1" or so).
 
Hey Adrien! said:
Both are having MVP seasons, so whoever wins it deserves this.

I’m a Yankees fan, so there’s inherent bias I can’t deny, but I feel weird if an MVP is batting .247 like Raleigh.
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Especially when he's batting 83 points below the other guy, he's 2 full points below in WAR, nearly 200 points below him in OPS. This shouldn't be a close race.

The players know this is a joke...


sports.yahoo.com

Aaron Judge’s AL MVP resume receiving players’ stamp of approval

Aaron Judge is having a strong season with the New YorkYankees, and most people are agreeing who the AL MVP is.
sports.yahoo.com sports.yahoo.com
 
RuffRuff said:
Friends and I have been debating this one. If history dictates, no better year to take a look than 2012 when Buster Posey won it. He won over Ryan Braun, who outside of BA, had far better numbers in key categories. Posey won in a landslide, only giving a couple votes to Braun and......Yadier Molina, another catcher. I think the voters like to award catchers when possible. They're in every play, generally the captain of the field. Seattle is also going to win the West for the first time in about 25 years. Even though Judge has some titanic numbers and the better "offensive" player, Raleigh likely going to win it as the most "valuable" player.

View attachment 111872
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"Raleigh likely going to win it as the most "valuable" player."

in no world is Cal more valuable to his team than Judge, thats an idiotic statement
 
controlfade said:
"Raleigh likely going to win it as the most "valuable" player."

in no world is Cal more valuable to his team than Judge, thats an idiotic statement
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Judge does have twice the payroll around him, not that it’s massively indicative of value.

I am by no means anti Judge on this and honestly do tilt to him being deserving, but keeping an open mind to Dumper given this award is not totally one size fits all as value can be seen many ways.
 
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