Muffet McGraw stepping down (merged threads)

[triaddukefan]

25,000 views in a little over 36 hours

 

[domerduck]

Isn't it getting tiresome listening to how great ND (with Muffet) has done against UConn?

Let's look at the facts: Muffet's overall record against UConn--13 wins and 38 losses
Of those 13 UConn losses, 7 were in the 8 games played from April 2011 to March 2013.

Bottom line: Muffet had several great players in the three year period where they won 7 of 8 games played with UConn.

Other than that 8 game block, Muffet's record against UConn was 6 wins and37 losses.
Pat Summitt had 9 wins and 14 losses.

This analysis is pretty disingenuous. First of all the 8 games you picked are actually over 4 seasons since the April 2011 loss was at the Final 4 in a season which ND was 1-3 against UConn. Secondly to not count games when ND had "several great players" during a period when UConn has had some of the greatest women's bball players ever (which is why UConn has 38 wins against ND) is ridiculous. In fact that 2011 Final 4 game was the only game Maya Moore ever lost to ND as she was 7-1 against ND, should we not count those? Then there was this pretty good UConn player Breanna Stewart who won her last 6 games against ND, should we not include those?

The obvious facts are that UConn has been historically superior than ND over the years, but still Muffet and ND had earned the most wins against Geno and UConn than any other team and coach. The series didn't even start until 1996, the year after Lobo & UConn won their 1st championship, ND came into the Big East that year and proceeded to lose their 1st 11 games until Ruth Riley & Niele Ivey's senior year where they split their 4 games, the year ND won their 1st National championship. After their graduation, UConn proceeded to win 16 of the next 18, then we have the last 19 which have been almost split (UConn 10, ND 9). We shouldn't exclude any games because one team had "several great players".

The interesting thing to me is to realize Niele Ivey's record against UConn as a player (2-7) and as an assistant coach at ND (9-17) is 11-24 overall, which is a better % than Muffet's and more wins than Pat (who by the way only lost 13 against Geno). Maybe she can improve on that now that she is head coach. You never know. So far Pat's successors are 0-1, but Kellie Harper was 4-2 as a player against UConn.

 

[sivad40]

Isn't it getting tiresome listening to how great ND (with Muffet) has done against UConn?

Let's look at the facts: Muffet's overall record against UConn--13 wins and 38 losses
Of those 13 UConn losses, 7 were in the 8 games played from April 2011 to March 2013.

Bottom line: Muffet had several great players in the three year period where they won 7 of 8 games played with UConn.

Other than that 8 game block, Muffet's record against UConn was 6 wins and 37 losses.
Pat Summitt had 9 wins and 14 losses.

3 of those 6 wins outside of the 8 game block came in the NCAA Final Four Semifinal game . Muffet went 5-1 against UConn in Final Final Semifinals and 5-3 in the NCAAs overall. It's comparable to Tom Brady having an better overall head to head record against Peyton Manning but Manning had a winning postseason record against Brady.

 

[Jim R]

This analysis is pretty disingenuous. First of all the 8 games you picked are actually over 4 seasons since the April 2011 loss was at the Final 4 in a season which ND was 1-3 against UConn. Secondly to not count games when ND had "several great players" during a period when UConn has had some of the greatest women's bball players ever (which is why UConn has 38 wins against ND) is ridiculous. In fact that 2011 Final 4 game was the only game Maya Moore ever lost to ND as she was 7-1 against ND, should we not count those? Then there was this pretty good UConn player Breanna Stewart who won her last 6 games against ND, should we not include those?

The obvious facts are that UConn has been historically superior than ND over the years, but still Muffet and ND had earned the most wins against Geno and UConn than any other team and coach. The series didn't even start until 1996, the year after Lobo & UConn won their 1st championship, ND came into the Big East that year and proceeded to lose their 1st 11 games until Ruth Riley & Niele Ivey's senior year where they split their 4 games, the year ND won their 1st National championship. After their graduation, UConn proceeded to win 16 of the next 18, then we have the last 19 which have been almost split (UConn 10, ND 9). We shouldn't exclude any games because one team had "several great players".

The interesting thing to me is to realize Niele Ivey's record against UConn as a player (2-7) and as an assistant coach at ND (9-17) is 11-24 overall, which is a better % than Muffet's and more wins than Pat (who by the way only lost 13 against Geno). Maybe she can improve on that now that she is head coach. You never know. So far Pat's successors are 0-1, but Kellie Harper was 4-2 as a player against UConn.

ESPN Analysis Disingenuous? Say it isn't so!!!

 

[DefenseBB]

The interesting thing to me is to realize Niele Ivey's record against UConn as a player (2-7) and as an assistant coach at ND (9-17) is 11-24 overall, which is a better % than Muffet's and more wins than Pat (who by the way only lost 13 against Geno). Maybe she can improve on that now that she is head coach. You never know. So far Pat's successors are 0-1, but Kellie Harper was 4-2 as a player against UConn.

Please tell me this is not another post touting that the success Muffet has had should be attributed to Niele Ivey. The sheer number of posters who are delusional about that theme is mind boggling to me and does a great disservice to how great a coach MM is, was and will be remembered. This year's disaster of a season SHOULD not be attributed to Niele going to the Memphis Grizzlies. This season of 13-18 would have happened with Niele on the bench just as much with her off it. It was a unique confluence of events as noted. The simple HARD truth is we don't know if Niele Ivey will be a great coach or not. Only time will tell but to attribute her success (or Kelli Harper's) as a player or a coach against UConn over that of the actual Head Coach is simply ludicrous and ignorant and completely disrespectful to MM and the program she built. You are now taking a page from MM herself and throwing MM under the bus-well done my Irish loving fanatic, well done in following her lead.

 

[msf22b]

Please tell me this is not another post touting that the success Muffet has had should be attributed to Niele Ivey. The sheer number of posters who are delusional about that theme is mind boggling to me and does a great disservice to how great a coach MM is, was and will be remembered. This year's disaster of a season SHOULD not be attributed to Niele going to the Memphis Grizzlies. This season of 13-18 would have happened with Niele on the bench just as much with her off it. It was a unique confluence of events as noted. The simple HARD truth is we don't know if Niele Ivey will be a great coach or not. Only time will tell but to attribute her success (or Kelli Harper's) as a player or a coach against UConn over that of the actual Head Coach is simply ludicrous and ignorant and completely disrespectful to MM and the program she built. You are now taking a page from MM herself and throwing MM under the bus-well done my Irish loving fanatic, well done in following her lead.

I am one of those who have promulgated the Ivy theory;
perhaps its leading exponant

1. Kelli has nothing to do with this discussion-totally irrelevant. let's get her off the table.

2. The basic theory has appeared from time to time on the ND site. If its being contemplated there, its certainly (at least) worthy of consideration here...which is (after all) an open discussion group.

3. The breakdown in the Irish game this season, went significantly
beyond what might have been expected (the last game for example). Muffet's out of control, emotional reactions at times,
also went significantly beyond what might have been expected

Her lack of success could be perhaps overlooked, considering her past record ..but her behavior might well have been considered unprofessional, even unacceptable by the Admin.

Two separate items here: a poorly prepared team and a distraught coach...(here a comparison to the previous UTenn coach might not be out of order).

4. Success of late at ND of late seemingly involved the combo of Muffet and Ivey...Admittedly it is a stretch to contemplate that the success was mostly that of Ivy...but it is possible...
More likely (as per my last post on the subject) it was a combination of the two in some manner which promoted greatness...Muffet failed on her own, with this season's dismal performance; Ivy's up.

 

[Tonyc]

The problem was not giving the non starters enough time with the starters which lead to transfers over the past few seasons as well as not building a nucleaus. For example...you commit to ND you have to learn the system and then expect to play and you dont because new recruits coming in play or your coach just plays 5-6 kids and you sit and you feel you dont get what you were promised. Now with that said injuries hurt this past season too. Ivey may have been a good recruiter but who was respondsible for the player development, the team development and who was respondsible for not playing enough underclassmen which lead to the transfers and non development of those coming up.

Niele may turn out to be a good coach but she is going to need to surround herself with good coaches. It will take time for her to rebuild ND for all of the above reasons. It doesnt matter how many top recruits a coach gets and thats any coach those recruits have got to have a team attititude, be unselfish, and be coachable. If not they you dont need them. The players can not run the team making the coach think she cant live without them. The coach needs to run the team and the coaches and players all need to be on the same page. One bad apple can spoil everything So we wait and see. Mean while UConn is focused on another NC run.

 

[Millenial23]

How do you pronounce Niele?

 

[UConnCat]

Wow, so Skylar just threw some serious shade at her former head coach, basically saying no one wanted to transfer to play for Muffet.

Skylar's tweet is downright strange. ND sells itself except when Muffet was running things? Have we noticed a surge in transfers since the news broke?

I always thought Niele was better than Muffet at selling ND. Now we'll find out if she can coach as well as Muffet.

 

[HuskyNan]

This analysis is pretty disingenuous. First of all the 8 games you picked are actually over 4 seasons since the April 2011 loss was at the Final 4 in a season which ND was 1-3 against UConn. Secondly to not count games when ND had "several great players" during a period when UConn has had some of the greatest women's bball players ever (which is why UConn has 38 wins against ND) is ridiculous. In fact that 2011 Final 4 game was the only game Maya Moore ever lost to ND as she was 7-1 against ND, should we not count those? Then there was this pretty good UConn player Breanna Stewart who won her last 6 games against ND, should we not include those?

The obvious facts are that UConn has been historically superior than ND over the years, but still Muffet and ND had earned the most wins against Geno and UConn than any other team and coach. The series didn't even start until 1996, the year after Lobo & UConn won their 1st championship, ND came into the Big East that year and proceeded to lose their 1st 11 games until Ruth Riley & Niele Ivey's senior year where they split their 4 games, the year ND won their 1st National championship. After their graduation, UConn proceeded to win 16 of the next 18, then we have the last 19 which have been almost split (UConn 10, ND 9). We shouldn't exclude any games because one team had "several great players".

The interesting thing to me is to realize Niele Ivey's record against UConn as a player (2-7) and as an assistant coach at ND (9-17) is 11-24 overall, which is a better % than Muffet's and more wins than Pat (who by the way only lost 13 against Geno). Maybe she can improve on that now that she is head coach. You never know. So far Pat's successors are 0-1, but Kellie Harper was 4-2 as a player against UConn.

It wasn’t Muffet or Niele that engineered ND’s victories against UConn, it was Skylar Diggins. She had UConn’s number and UConn couldn’t stop her, for the most part. Why do you think so many UConn fans are so nasty towards her? It took a player as great as Stewie to put the final nail in Skylar’s national championship hopes.

 

[domerduck]

ESPN Analysis Disingenuous? Say it isn't so!!!

I thought it was a "Watchdog" analysis from that post...if it was ESPN, can you give me the link.

 

[domerduck]

It wasn’t Muffet or Neile that engineered ND’s victories against UConn, it was Skylar Diggins. She had UConn’s number and UConn couldn’t stop her, for the most part. Why do you think so many UConn fans are so nasty towards her? It took a player as great as Stewie to put the final nail in Skylar’s national championship hopes.

Skylar record against UConn was just 7-8. Her senior year was Stewie's freshman year which was the last year ND & UConn were both in the Big East which is why they played so many games over 4 years. She definitely lead ND to make the UConn games more competitive and I agree with you Stewie was the difference in that Final 4 loss.

Still other players had actually better records in the rivalry. Natalie Achonwa & Kayla McBride were 7-4 against UConn while Jess Shepard only played 2 years at ND so was 2-2 with both of her wins in the more important Final 4 games. From the stats, Ace (Achonwa) was probably the most impactful player against UConn when you consider her record as a starter was 4-1 since she only started 1 game her sophomore year (against UConn Jan.7, 2012 which ND won) and was hurt for the NC game her senior year so didn't play for that loss. Most of us ND fans knew that NC game with the two teams undefeated in 2014 would have been so much better if Ace could have played in Stewie's sophomore year.

 

[EricLA]

You may well be giving an unproven, first time, head coach too much credit and overly high expectations. Look at all the failed assistants out there. It's a big jump from recruiting and sitting next to the head coach to running all aspects of a high level program.
Some have done it, but many more have been successful because of the challenges they overcame as head coaches at lower level programs where they were in charge and had to make the tough calls. Ivey's first big decision will be hiring a new assistant. Let's see who that is. If it's an ND alum with little meaningful experience she could be on the road to Ollieville.

I probably should have been more clear. Niele was at ND for 12 years or so, 4 years as the Assoc. HC - basically Chris Dailey's position. She was probably more responsible for recruiting than Muffet, but I'll leave that for the ND fans to clarify if I'm off base.

Point is, my understanding was that recruiting was largely the purview of Ivey. Of course Muffet was the closer, but my point was that I think Ivey will recruit for ND just as well as when Muffet was the HC. Heck, just look at Tennessee - Warlick continued to reel in top 10-15, and even top 3 recruits on a consistent bases after Pat left. It's just that she did not get kids who worked well together, and her coaching left something to be desired as well.

It remains to be seen if Niele comes close to having the coaching acumen that Muffet did...

 

[DefenseBB]

I am one of those who have promulgated the Ivy theory;
perhaps its leading exponant PROPONENT is the word.
2. The basic theory has appeared from time to time on the ND site. If its being contemplated there, its certainly (at least) worthy of consideration here...which is (after all) an open discussion group. And posters on team sites are ALWAYS so knowledgeable on the inner working of a team NOT.

3. The breakdown in the Irish game this season, went significantly
beyond what might have been expected (the last game for example). Muffet's out of control, emotional reactions at times, MM was absolutely out of control at the pressers. During the games, her team was very young and inexperienced and it showed with turnovers and lack of offensive flow. The team did play significantly better towards the end of the season as they were well on their way to 20 losses.
also went significantly beyond what might have been expected

Her lack of success could be perhaps overlooked, considering her past record ..but her behavior might well have been considered unprofessional, even unacceptable by the Admin. That is pure speculation and she isn't the first coach to act completely unprofessional at a presser for ND...

Two separate items here: a poorly prepared team and a distraught coach...(here a comparison to the previous UTenn coach might not be out of order). The team was clearly lacking senior leadership and experienced talent. They did win 13 games against a brutal OOC. So to say they weren't prepared is incorrect. They couldn't execute. Sam Brunelle was their biggest player on the floor until Vaughn came back.

4. Success of late at ND of late seemingly involved the combo of Muffet and Ivey...Admittedly it is a stretch to contemplate that the success was mostly that of Ivy...but it is possible...What? And Beth Cunningham and Carol Owens had NOTHING TO DO with that success? This illogic says, go stick your McGraws bench and see how this theory plays over there. No way Dillon or Orangutan agree with this drivel.
More likely (as per my last post on the subject) it was a combination of the two in some manner which promoted greatness...Muffet failed on her own, with this season's dismal performance; Ivy's up.

See my counterpoints in bold above. I do not and think most do not believe Ivey was the "puppet master" to MM's Howdy Doody. That is naïve to think all the Irish success the past 12 years is due to Ivey being on the bench and that this year is solely an exhibition of McGraws lack of coaching. Silly is what it is...

 

[Steelerone]

I've got to be honest. Muffet did a heck of a job at Notre Dame. She took the program to a new level and did it the right way. I sthink she sometimes went a little overboard when her teams were on the winning end but that was really no different than most other coachs. I think that Geno will miss her a lot more than we will.

 

[Steelerone]

I probably should have been more clear. Niele was at ND for 12 years or so, 4 years as the Assoc. HC - basically Chris Dailey's position. She was probably more responsible for recruiting than Muffet, but I'll leave that for the ND fans to clarify if I'm off base.

Point is, my understanding was that recruiting was largely the purview of Ivey. Of course Muffet was the closer, but my point was that I think Ivey will recruit for ND just as well as when Muffet was the HC. Heck, just look at Tennessee - Warlick continued to reel in top 10-15, and even top 3 recruits on a consistent bases after Pat left. It's just that she did not get kids who worked well together, and her coaching left something to be desired as well.

It remains to be seen if Niele comes close to having the coaching acumen that Muffet did...

Eric, I think that Notre Dame pretty much recruits itself. Not only do they appeal to a lot of high school athletes but lets face it, they also have an "in" on many parochial schools. Probably not as much as when I was a kid. If you were a football player in the forties or fifties and happened to be Catholic no matter which schools were recruiting you the dream school was Notre Dame.

 

[donalddoowop]

How do you pronounce Niele?

Nee-ell

 

[CL82]

Nee-ell

Isn't that Superman's space name?

 

[Big Mick]

Eric, I think that Notre Dame pretty much recruits itself. Not only do they appeal to a lot of high school athletes but lets face it, they also have an "in" on many parochial schools. Probably not as much as when I was a kid. If you were a football player in the forties or fifties and happened to be Catholic no matter which schools were recruiting you the dream school was Notre Dame.

That was essentially true 25+ years ago. At present, the Elite players want a platform that prepares them for the WNBA. Many in the next group of "better" players have the same aspiration; however, they are less likely to snag a spot at their top preference. For everyone else, the bench beckons OR mid-major.

 

[msf22b]

See my counterpoints in bold above.

3. The breakdown in the Irish game this season, went significantly
beyond what might have been expected (the last game for example). Muffet's out of control, emotional reactions at times, MM was absolutely out of control at the pressers. During the games, her team was very young and inexperienced and it showed with turnovers and lack of offensive flow. The team did play significantly better towards the end of the season as they were well on their way to 20 losses.
also went significantly beyond what might have been expected

Her lack of success could be perhaps overlooked, considering her past record ..but her behavior might well have been considered unprofessional, even unacceptable by the Admin. That is pure speculation and she isn't the first coach to act completely unprofessional at a presser for ND...
____________________________________________

Defense:
Thank you for the word correction

With regard MM's behavior, I was thinking more of her bench antics and breakdowns than the Pressers...Perhaps they go together.
I remember a game commentator noting that it wasn't so great for her team's morale for them to see her: holding her head in her hands, tearing up, turning her back on play, wild gesticulating et al.

A reasonable supervisor might not want to see that on National TV and/or conclude that the subject is undergoing an emotional breakdown of some sort.

Your quote: The team did play significantly better towards the end of the season as they were well on their way to 20 losses.

Is true, they won a few games at the end but losing to (288) Pitt in the tourney first round is a clear example of an underachieving team in distress. UConn almost never does something like that.

Conclusion: throughout the season, they played in a considerably poorer manner than expected considering the personnel available .

You can speculate why, or just write it off to "lack of offensive flow."

I prefer to question the reason for the team breakdown.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Carl Adamec has an article out. It is write protected against nonsubscribers like me, but it is a worthwhile read. One of the things she'll miss, the UConn rivalry.

Journal Inquirer

Serving towns east of the Connecticut River

www.journalinquirer.com

 

[j66kicker]

Isn't that Superman's space name?

Kal-El (son of Jor-El)

 

[CL82]

Kal-El (son of Jor-El)

View attachment 53502

So is Nee-el supergirl?

 

[j66kicker]

So is Nee-el supergirl?

Zor-El

 

[oldude]

Zor-El

View attachment 53503

How good a shooter is she from 3-pt?