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More fallout from Louisville/Oregon/Russell

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tennfanatic00 said:
Seems like the topic has diverted onto a different path here.

Though seedy at best, I don't have as much of a problem with a school offering a job to a family member so that they can procure the recruit.

The issue here is quite different. We are talking about jerking kids around, not adults. Louisville (and they were the only school in Mercedes' recruitment to do this) offered a kid who was clearly not up to the standard of their program just to sway Mercedes. That, in and of itself, is shady though I don't have that much of an issue there.

The big issue is that when Mercedes decided to sign elsewhere, they pulled the scholarship of her friend because they didn't need her as leverage anymore. That is a terrible way to treat a kid. Even if Reynolds knew it was going on at the time, that in no way makes this right.

I have several sources that tell me they pulled the scholarship when they knew they could sign someone more talented. They signed a JUCO guard yesterday to fill her spot.

It's tough to break into the big time and sign that program changing recruit. Mercedes could have been that for post-Angel Louisville. They went all out for her and I applaud that, but I cannot ever advocate pulling a scholarship just because the kid didn't hold up her end of the bargain.

Waltz went in to her house, talked to her parents, made promises and said that he would treat her well, develop her, all the standard stuff to get a kid to sign. Then to just back out because you didn't land her best friend? It really makes me dislike this guy.
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Maybe not you in particularly, but the Summitt sure had a problem with Maya's mom situation.
 
agree, meyers -- which was the point of my original post... ethical issues are hard to nail down, if the process of recruiting is not transparent to all (see the they said/he said happening in Lakers land)
 
tennfanatic00 said:
I have several sources that tell me they pulled the scholarship when they knew they could sign someone more talented. They signed a JUCO guard yesterday to fill her spot.
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Jody Demling, a reporter formerly with the Courier-Journal and who now covers Louisville sports for Louisville.Scout.com, says that Louisville did not withdraw Montgomery's offer. His understanding of the situation was that she backed off her commitment. Do you have better sources than Jody?
 
Forty_four said:
Maybe not you in particularly, but the Summitt sure had a problem with Maya's mom situation.
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Like I said, a little seedy...but I understand that recruiting gets that way. Some fans are very naive about the process which is getting more cutthroat daily.

I just don't think any adult should treat a 17 year old kid like she's bait.
 
UConnCat said:
Jody Demling, a reporter formerly with the Courier-Journal and who now covers Louisville sports for Louisville.Scout.com, says that Louisville did not withdraw Montgomery's offer. His understanding of the situation was that she backed off her commitment. Do you have better sources than Jody?
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Yes, I do. I have sources that are very close to the family. She knew Mercedes was going to UT when she committed to Louisville. I suppose one could say she got cold feet about moving cross country, but I know that is not the case here.

I am told that Louisville politely told her that she might want to look elsewhere because she would not cut it there. And while the tact was appropriate, the acts themselves are deplorable.

Also, just objectively...look at the timing. She decommits then another recruit who was already on campus commits right away? That was lined up by the school.
 
tennfanatic00 said:
Yes, I do. I have sources that are very close to the family. She knew Mercedes was going to UT when she committed to Louisville. I suppose one could say she got cold feet about moving cross country, but I know that is not the case here.

I am told that Louisville politely told her that she might want to look elsewhere because she would not cut it there. And while the tact was appropriate, the acts themselves are deplorable.

Also, just objectively...look at the timing. She decommits then another recruit who was already on campus commits right away? That was lined up by the school.
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The timing doesn't really prove anything. Even after Montgomery committed, Louisville was still recruiting and hoping to sign guards Imani Wright and Jordan Reynolds. Thus, it wasn't necessary for Montgomery to de-commit in order for Louisville to sign Breedlove. Why is it not the case that Louisville went after Breedlove after losing out on both Wright and Reynolds? I'm not suggesting that Walz didn't do what your sources state he did -- I have no idea, but experience has taught me not to trust the anonymous sources of Tennessee fans -- but your theory based on the timing of events doesn't necessarily add up.
 
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tennfanatic00 said:
I am told that Louisville politely told her that she might want to look elsewhere because she would not cut it there.
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This has happened at several schools (Duke & UNC, I believe) and I'm not sure what to think of it. In all cases it was true -- so is it wrong to tell someone "you might want to look elsewhere because you have no chance to play here?" Yes, obviously, a lot depends on the context in which it is said.

Also, I'm surprised if the player was surprised to hear this. She wasnt anywhere near top 100 on anyone's list.
 
UConnCat said:
The timing doesn't really prove anything. Even after Montgomery committed, Louisville was still recruiting and hoping to sign guards Imani Wright and Jordan Reynolds. Thus, it wasn't necessary for Montgomery to de-commit in order for Louisville to sign Breedlove. Why is it not the case that Louisville went after Breedlove after losing out on both Wright and Reynolds? I'm not suggesting that Walz didn't do what your sources state he did -- I have no idea, but experience has taught me not to trust the anonymous sources of Tennessee fans -- but your theory based on the timing of events doesn't necessarily add up.
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You're right. The timing may or may not have anything to do with it. My source is not of any Tennessee base at all. Like I said, my source is close to the family out in Oregon. If a school recruits someone and gets a verbal, I am of the opinion that should hold weight and the school should hold true to the acceptance of that verbal regardless of the baggage associated with it.

Montgomery was never going to get significant play time at UL. Everyone involved knew it even when she verballed. But Montgomery verballed even though she knew Mercedes was going elsewhere. This means that she was all in for UL until the school told her to look elsewhere. At that point it was clear she wasn't needed anymore.
 
Doesnt it seem strange that Louisville and the other schools Montgomery was considering arent on the same level?

From a post on the Louisville Forum, it said she was considering Louisville, Hawaii, Seattle and Va Tech..
She was supposedly ranked as a 3 star recruit and #57 at the guard position.
Would that be a player that Louisville would be activly recruiting and be a fit at their level, a top 25 program.
I can see by her ranking she probably would be a great fit at Hawaii, Seattle or Va Tech. But Louisville? Something aint Kosher with an offer from the Cardinals.
 
So I guess when someone from the Montgomery camp tweeted "the player got played" in knowing Russell was going to Tenn, wonder how that went over with Louisville fans and players. Don't think things would be hunky dory after that tweet.
 
ochoopsfan said:
Doesnt it seem strange that Louisville and the other schools Montgomery was considering arent on the same level?

From a post on the Louisville Forum, it said she was considering Louisville, Hawaii, Seattle and Va Tech..
She was supposedly ranked as a 3 star recruit and #57 at the guard position.
Would that be a player that Louisville would be activly recruiting and be a fit at their level, a top 25 program.
I can see by her ranking she probably would be a great fit at Hawaii, Seattle or Va Tech. But Louisville? Something aint Kosher with an offer from the Cardinals.
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It did seem strange to many who saw her offer as part of Walz's plan to secure Russell's commitment. I doubt that Montgomery and her family didn't see that as well, but she (they) decided, at least initially, to commit to Louisville in any event with the hope of providing Alexis the opportunity to play and prove herself on a bigger stage. The question now is whether Montgomery chose to de-commit on her own or whether she was advised to do so by Walz; our Tennessee visitor says it was the latter and a reporter who covers the team says it was the former. It seems there may be more to this story.
 
Reporters who cover teams are often instruments themselves to coaches. Their livelihoods rely on access that sometimes comes with a price.
 
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Two way street: LOI's can have anything added to it,and if it is accepted by the school they have to honor that. A lot of recruits have a lot in it to protect themself
[4 year schoolie,no cut etc,,,,]
 
rjp172 said:
Reporters who cover teams are often instruments themselves to coaches. Their livelihoods rely on access that sometimes comes with a price.
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That's certainly true. And sometimes players' families say and do things to protect the players and themselves.

I'm not a big fan of Jeff Walz but concluding that he acted improperly in this situation may be premature.
 
I agree with the point about the reporter- Demling. Clearly he relies on his relationship with the coaches for info. This is also a reminder that as much as we want to see program as families, many are very business-like, and that this is a cutthroat, pressure world. People do crazy things under pressure or in the name of ambition.
 
For that matter were there any other top programs other than Tenn & Louis. that offered to Russells friend Reynolds?
 
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oneresult said:
Two way street: LOI's can have anything added to it,and if it is accepted by the school they have to honor that. A lot of recruits have a lot in it to protect themself [4 year schoolie,no cut etc,,,,]
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No, they can't be altered. Schools don't write the LOI; it's an i strument of the National Letter of Intent organization of the NCAA. It's essentially a standard contract. You can see one at this link - http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/nli/nli

LOIs are good for one year and renewable thereafter. Student-athletes can't negotiate protections such as 4 year schollie or no-cut clauses into them.
 
easttexastrash said:
How about Duke and the Waner sisters.
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How about not true at all. Duke was taking Emily Waner either way, as the team needed a point guard. And Emily Waner was a top 60 player and the state player of the year in Colorado.

Might want to be aware of the facts before making a bold proclamation...
 
CamrnCrz1974 said:
How about not true at all. Duke was taking Emily Waner either way, as the team needed a point guard. And Emily Waner was a top 60 player and the state player of the year in Colorado.

Might want to be aware of the facts before making a bold proclamation...
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Top 60 player who wanted to transfer into Duke would not be good enough to be recruited by Duke. How many other transfers in has Duke taken, can't think of one, maybe there are some. Emily was not exactly a star her freshman year. She averaged 7.1 pts per game for the Colorado Buffaloes.

Quotes from news sources in 2004 "April 19th announced (Emily) that she is leaving the Buffaloes for chance to play with Abby"
April 30th Abby commits to Duke.
Quotes from news sources about Abby's commitment on May 1st of 2004 " With this commitment, the Blue Devils also picked up a second guard, Abby's sister, Emily"

So if you want to sell that Duke in 2004 with the recruiting classes Gail was putting together were about to offer Emily a scholarship after her freshman performace at Colorado to sit out a year and transfer to Duke without 1st getting her sister Abby you can sell all you want, the facts speak for themselves. No way Gail recruits Emily without Abbey.

So you are saying that Emily makes statement on April 19th and Abby thinks "I want to go to Duke and I don't care what Emily wants, if she isn't good enough to get a scholarship to Duke I guess we'll never play together". I would suggest given statements made by Emily and timing of scholarship offers and the complete lack of performance by Emily as a college freshman that would attract a recruiting colossal like Duke to take her as a transfer - you protest too much vs. Duke's motive on giving Emily a transfer scholarship - get Abby.
 
Husky68 said:
Top 60 player who wanted to transfer into Duke would not be good enough to be recruited by Duke. How many other transfers in has Duke taken, can't think of one, maybe there are some. Emily was not exactly a star her freshman year. She averaged 7.1 pts per game for the Colorado Buffaloes.

Quotes from news sources in 2004 "April 19th announced (Emily) that she is leaving the Buffaloes for chance to play with Abby"
April 30th Abby commits to Duke.
Quotes from news sources about Abby's commitment on May 1st of 2004 " With this commitment, the Blue Devils also picked up a second guard, Abby's sister, Emily"

So if you want to sell that Duke in 2004 with the recruiting classes Gail was putting together were about to offer Emily a scholarship after her freshman performace at Colorado to sit out a year and transfer to Duke without 1st getting her sister Abby you can sell all you want, the facts speak for themselves. No way Gail recruits Emily without Abbey.

So you are saying that Emily makes statement on April 19th and Abby thinks "I want to go to Duke and I don't care what Emily wants, if she isn't good enough to get a scholarship to Duke I guess we'll never play together". I would suggest given statements made by Emily and timing of scholarship offers and the complete lack of performance by Emily as a college freshman that would attract a recruiting colossal like Duke to take her as a transfer - you protest too much vs. Duke's motive on giving Emily a transfer scholarship - get Abby.
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From anything I've ever heard, I think you are overstating here. There was zero controversy about the Waner's going to Duke, really. I don't care if Duke was doing a favor for one or the other, I never heard that Abby wouldn't go if they didn't take Emily, only that they wanted to play together. Other sisters have presented themselves as a "package" deal, often to the detriment of both sisters in the end. There really was no downside in this for Duke.
 
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Husky68 said:
Top 60 player who wanted to transfer into Duke would not be good enough to be recruited by Duke. How many other transfers in has Duke taken, can't think of one, maybe there are some. Emily was not exactly a star her freshman year. She averaged 7.1 pts per game for the Colorado Buffaloes.

Quotes from news sources in 2004 "April 19th announced (Emily) that she is leaving the Buffaloes for chance to play with Abby"
April 30th Abby commits to Duke.
Quotes from news sources about Abby's commitment on May 1st of 2004 " With this commitment, the Blue Devils also picked up a second guard, Abby's sister, Emily"

So if you want to sell that Duke in 2004 with the recruiting classes Gail was putting together were about to offer Emily a scholarship after her freshman performace at Colorado to sit out a year and transfer to Duke without 1st getting her sister Abby you can sell all you want, the facts speak for themselves. No way Gail recruits Emily without Abbey.

So you are saying that Emily makes statement on April 19th and Abby thinks "I want to go to Duke and I don't care what Emily wants, if she isn't good enough to get a scholarship to Duke I guess we'll never play together". I would suggest given statements made by Emily and timing of scholarship offers and the complete lack of performance by Emily as a college freshman that would attract a recruiting colossal like Duke to take her as a transfer - you protest too much vs. Duke's motive on giving Emily a transfer scholarship - get Abby.
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My protest? Let me assure you, my information is based on fact, though some of it is from being an "insider," if you will.

You claim Emily would not be good enough to be recruited by Duke? She was ranked higher than Georgia Schweitzer, Vicki Krapohl, and others whom Duke recruited and who were very successful starters at Duke. In fact, there were and still are are players on Duke's roster who had lower rankings than Emily.

More importantly, she had demonstrated her three-point proficiency and potential while at Colorado. She ranked 10th in the Big 12 in three-point percentage and ranked 7th in the Big 12 in three-point baskets per game. She previously received multiple All-State honors and was the Colorado Player of the Year in high school.

As for the rest of the post, you claim the facts speak for themselves. One big problem...you are factually incorrect. First, you are purportedly quoting from (but not citing) "news sources." And one of the sources is itself wrong (unless you just quoted the headline, in which case only the headline is wrong). Emily committed before Abby. So your quoted news sources either contradict each other or you pick and chose parts that are factually incongruent.

Let's look at the timeline and the facts.

Harding was supposed to graduate after 2006 (this was before her suspension was announced). This is the spring of 2004. Duke struck out on Alexis Hornbuckle and Candice Wiggins in recruiting, two players they thought they led for. Duke, at the last minute, go Wanisha Smith, but she was a combo guard. Duke was having difficulty recruiting point guards in the high school Class of 2005 (and was worried that Mitch would have to play point, even though she was better suited to the wing and was not an athletic playmaker when she did have to play the point).

By having Emily, Duke solved its 2005 PG problem, as Emily would player the 2005-2006 season....when the 2005 class would arrive and Harding's senior year (as it turns out, Harding had the extra year from the suspension). Emily would back her up for one year, and take over the starting position as a junior. As for Abby, Duke had Wanisha Smith to play shooting guard and, at the time, was recruiting Marissa Coleman heavily for the small forward position. Duke could have played Wanisha and Abby together or Coleman next to Smith.

Two facts of which you were not aware:

- Duke targeted Emily for the position and used the CAPE program as part of the sales pitch, knowing Emily was tremendously academically inclined (high school valedictorian, etc.). Emily became one of three Duke female basketball players to go through CAPE (Georgia Schweitzer and Alison Bales were the other two). As an aside, Emily is finishing up her last year at Duke Medical School.

- Tim Waner, Abby and Emily's father, has repeatedly stated that Duke emphasized that it would take Emily no matter what Abby did because of need at the point guard position. He has also said this to ME on multiple occasions.

Did having Emily at Duke help in Abby's decision making process? Of course. But was it the reason Abby ended up at Duke? Absolutely not. Was getting Abby the reason why Duke took Emily Waner? Absolutely not. Was Emily Waner good enough to be recruited by and play at Duke? Absolutely.
 
"Did having Emily at Duke help in Abby's decision making process? Of course. But was it the reason Abby ended up at Duke? Absolutely not. Was getting Abby the reason why Duke took Emily Waner? Absolutely not. Was Emily Waner good enough to be recruited by and play at Duke? Absolutely. "

Lawyers!!! Have to use 500 words for something that can be said so perfectly in less words.
 
And Duke usually gets a pass on most matters, because they hold the moral high ground- just ask them. LOL

doggydaddy said:
"Did having Emily at Duke help in Abby's decision making process? Of course. But was it the reason Abby ended up at Duke? Absolutely not. Was getting Abby the reason why Duke took Emily Waner? Absolutely not. Was Emily Waner good enough to be recruited by and play at Duke? Absolutely. "

Lawyers!!! Have to use 500 words for something that can be said so perfectly in less words.
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triaddukefan said:
I didnt follow women's recruiting until the past couple of years. How great is it that I find out tidbits of Duke recruiting history in a thread about Louisville... on a UCONN message board. What a great Country this is :D
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Not only that, you get up-to-the-minute information on the Tenn recruits that have signed their LOIs. I know I've been checking hourly for that information. And all this in a thread about Louisville and Oregon. No wonder so many fans read the Boneyard. You can learn a lot here.
 
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